JoshMcMadMac
Dedicated LVC Member
The specific heat of this stuff is actually half of what water is, so that is not correct. However, that does nothing to discount the fact that there are a ton of folks with great success using it.
The Mark's Cooling Fan Mods
- Thread starter mlschultz
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The specific heat of this stuff is actually half of what water is, so that is not correct. However, that does nothing to discount the fact that there are a ton of folks with great success using it.
Frogman
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Well... If you say so.
Specific heat crap aside, I'm telling you what I've noticed from my personal experience and relaying what Evans told me when I asked them about the higher temperature readings.
Maybe they dumbed down for me, or maybe they don't know WTF they're talking about. Either way, it works well for my applications.
Specific heat crap aside, I'm telling you what I've noticed from my personal experience and relaying what Evans told me when I asked them about the higher temperature readings.
Maybe they dumbed down for me, or maybe they don't know WTF they're talking about. Either way, it works well for my applications.
JoshMcMadMac
Dedicated LVC Member
I don't say so...chemistry does. I was just pointing it out, because I was sure this would come up:
...which is the point to your suggestion, and a good one.
JoshMcMadMac
Dedicated LVC Member
Further reading, from Evans:
http://www.evanscooling.com/water-based-vs-waterless-differentiators/
According to their table at the bottom of that page the specific heat is more like 70% of water, not half. It is propylene glycol, so information is readily available on it. The very high viscosity at ambient seems scary for a stock water pump, though.
http://www.evanscooling.com/water-based-vs-waterless-differentiators/
According to their table at the bottom of that page the specific heat is more like 70% of water, not half. It is propylene glycol, so information is readily available on it. The very high viscosity at ambient seems scary for a stock water pump, though.
Frogman
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I agree, the viscosity sounds high. But frankly, it pours just fine at room temperature.
As far as it being hard on stock water pumps... I'm running NPG+ in two powerstrokes. One with 160K miles on it (100K miles with Evans) and one with 80K (50K with Evans), as well as several cars. I have never had any water pump problems.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about the cavitation damage water/glycol vapor bubbles create on a water pump more than the higher specific gravity of Evans NPG+.
Either way, it's one of those things that some people swear by, and others scoff at. Much like that AMSOIL nutthuger crap.
As far as it being hard on stock water pumps... I'm running NPG+ in two powerstrokes. One with 160K miles on it (100K miles with Evans) and one with 80K (50K with Evans), as well as several cars. I have never had any water pump problems.
Personally, I'd be more concerned about the cavitation damage water/glycol vapor bubbles create on a water pump more than the higher specific gravity of Evans NPG+.
Either way, it's one of those things that some people swear by, and others scoff at. Much like that AMSOIL nutthuger crap.
OK Here is the update (change in plans) - Aric is going leave the Mustang fan in the car as is, triggered by the VLCM. He is not going to install the HO 16" Spal fan. The 16" Spal fan will be plan "B".
He is going to install the two 7.5" Spal fans as a stand alone dedicated system, and will use the A/C system as the trigger switch. When the A/C is turned on, the two 7.5" Spal fans will turn on and run until the A/C is turned off. My SL Mercedes has a similar set-up with two pusher fans for A/C, and a viscous clutch cooling fan, and it works very well. Remember, the Mustang fan did just fine without the A/C on.
He has to move the intercooler towards the bumper a little to fit the fans where he wants them on the condenser using spacers.
He is going to swap out the 180* thermostat in the car with a 160* t-stat.
Hopefully, these changes will do the job
If not... See plan "B"
He is going to install the two 7.5" Spal fans as a stand alone dedicated system, and will use the A/C system as the trigger switch. When the A/C is turned on, the two 7.5" Spal fans will turn on and run until the A/C is turned off. My SL Mercedes has a similar set-up with two pusher fans for A/C, and a viscous clutch cooling fan, and it works very well. Remember, the Mustang fan did just fine without the A/C on.
He has to move the intercooler towards the bumper a little to fit the fans where he wants them on the condenser using spacers.
He is going to swap out the 180* thermostat in the car with a 160* t-stat.
Hopefully, these changes will do the job
If not... See plan "B"Fan shroud
Mike, if its possible you should see if you can get a fan shroud made for the mustang fan. There are alot of exposed fins on your radiator core that the mustang fan is not pulling air through. The shroud will make sure that the air pulled by the fan will go through the entire core, not just in front of the fan.
Mike, if its possible you should see if you can get a fan shroud made for the mustang fan. There are alot of exposed fins on your radiator core that the mustang fan is not pulling air through. The shroud will make sure that the air pulled by the fan will go through the entire core, not just in front of the fan.
Here it is. The car takes much longer to warm up now. I am going to switch over to Evans coolant http://www.evanscooling.com/ for extra insurance. Hopefully this will enable me to drive The Mark with the A/C on whenever I want, regardless of how hot it is outside.
driller
Dedicated LVC Member
Let us know how the Evans Coolant works. 
My first time out driving the car with the new fans was to Caffeine and Octane this past Sunday morning. It is about a half hour drive from my house, and the car did not warm up completely to half way on the temp gauge. I noticed a fine layer soot on the bumper when I got out of the car, so I think Aric might need to look at the tune again.
When the Evans coolant goes in, I read that you need to bump the thermostat up to around 230*, and re-program the fan on/off temps in the pcm. Hope this stuff works...
When the Evans coolant goes in, I read that you need to bump the thermostat up to around 230*, and re-program the fan on/off temps in the pcm. Hope this stuff works...
Time to change out the old antifreeze, and go with Evans waterless coolant! lol The UPS guy was not happy delivering this package. All 10 gallons in one box. I ordered 8 gallons of coolant, and 2 gallons of prep. I got a better deal ordering 2 - 4 gallon packs of coolant. It came to $331.52 shipped for everything.
I am going to have Aric change the coolant out, and do yet another dyno tune on The Mark to data log, recalibrate fan on/off, and see if he can throw some more timing at it since this coolant should keep the water jackets at a cooler temp and help prevent detonation. At least that is what the people at Evans say.
I am going to have Aric change the coolant out, and do yet another dyno tune on The Mark to data log, recalibrate fan on/off, and see if he can throw some more timing at it since this coolant should keep the water jackets at a cooler temp and help prevent detonation. At least that is what the people at Evans say.
New bling for The Mark Aluminum power steering tank. lol I decided to install this while I am waiting for my appointment on the 22nd to install this tank, flush the coolant, and dyno tune. Took maybe 10 minutes to install, and I probably saved myself $100 in labor charges
Aluminum power steering tank. lol I decided to install this while I am waiting for my appointment on the 22nd to install this tank, flush the coolant, and dyno tune. Took maybe 10 minutes to install, and I probably saved myself $100 in labor charges Tomorrow's the day to get this new coolant in The Mark! I stopped by the shop, and talked to Ryan this past Saturday and dropped off the coolant, go over the instructions, and what ever else to plan for this coolant swap.
My big concern - I have an original 98 heater core, and am concerned about them trying to blow it out, or even touching it for that matter.
So, rather than taking the chance of it breaking, they might have to go through all two gallons of prep, and eight gallons of coolant to make sure all the old stuff is out of the system. Doing it that way is still cheeper than replacing the heater core - even at $33 bucks a gallon.
I also asked if Aric could data log the car before and after the flush to get coolant and any applicable temps like oil temp readings so I know where we are at since I do not have any real gauges in the car.
Depending on what the readings are, there might be a chance I might not have to install an oil cooler if the Royal Purple motor oil can handle the higher temps.
I want to hold off on the dyno tune until this summer, because right now, with the 160 t-stat in the car, it has a hard time getting up to normal temp on the gauge and staying there.
I also hope the Cobra pump and the 10% overdrive damper on the car now is enough to keep this fluid moving fast enough.
I stopped by the shop, and talked to Ryan this past Saturday and dropped off the coolant, go over the instructions, and what ever else to plan for this coolant swap.My big concern - I have an original 98 heater core, and am concerned about them trying to blow it out, or even touching it for that matter.
So, rather than taking the chance of it breaking, they might have to go through all two gallons of prep, and eight gallons of coolant to make sure all the old stuff is out of the system. Doing it that way is still cheeper than replacing the heater core - even at $33 bucks a gallon.
I also asked if Aric could data log the car before and after the flush to get coolant and any applicable temps like oil temp readings so I know where we are at since I do not have any real gauges in the car.
Depending on what the readings are, there might be a chance I might not have to install an oil cooler if the Royal Purple motor oil can handle the higher temps.
I want to hold off on the dyno tune until this summer, because right now, with the 160 t-stat in the car, it has a hard time getting up to normal temp on the gauge and staying there.
I also hope the Cobra pump and the 10% overdrive damper on the car now is enough to keep this fluid moving fast enough.
All done! Just picked The Mark up from Aric's. This has been a real learning experience. Things just are not as easy as it seems. Thanks to Aric for the outstanding work as usual.
He has data logged the car before and after the coolant exchange, and another data log will be done one more time in the heat of the summer. There is a chance the 160* thermostat will need to be removed, and will have to run the car without a t-stat all together if it is determined it is a restriction to coolant flow.
Here are his findings. Keep in mind, these are measurements taken from a heavily modified 600 hp Mark VIII. YMMV The car was driven hard to build as much heat as possible before hand.
Initial test drive - 50/50 mix of water/green coolant with max a/c on
54* outside temp: ECT - 194*
After swap to Evans NPG+ Coolant, same conditions with max a/c on
52* outside temp: ECT - 230*
The stock temp gauge needle in the car looked to be in the same position on the dial in the before and after data logs.
I will keep a close eye on things for now, and if the temps start to move the gauge needle beyond half way, I hope it will plateau rather than continue to move towards the red part of the gauge.
Just picked The Mark up from Aric's. This has been a real learning experience. Things just are not as easy as it seems. Thanks to Aric for the outstanding work as usual.He has data logged the car before and after the coolant exchange, and another data log will be done one more time in the heat of the summer. There is a chance the 160* thermostat will need to be removed, and will have to run the car without a t-stat all together if it is determined it is a restriction to coolant flow.
Here are his findings. Keep in mind, these are measurements taken from a heavily modified 600 hp Mark VIII. YMMV
The car was driven hard to build as much heat as possible before hand.Initial test drive - 50/50 mix of water/green coolant with max a/c on
54* outside temp: ECT - 194*
After swap to Evans NPG+ Coolant, same conditions with max a/c on
52* outside temp: ECT - 230*
The stock temp gauge needle in the car looked to be in the same position on the dial in the before and after data logs.
I will keep a close eye on things for now, and if the temps start to move the gauge needle beyond half way, I hope it will plateau rather than continue to move towards the red part of the gauge.
While your IAT is better then mine while just sitting there your ECT is much higher. I really have to beat on mine in very hot weather to hit 220*, normally the car never goes above 212*.
Sorry but so far I am not very impressed with the Evans stuff.
Sorry but so far I am not very impressed with the Evans stuff.
driller
Dedicated LVC Member
Sorry but so far I am not very impressed with the Evans stuff.
The Evans coolant will run at a slightly higher temperature but technically remove more heat at higher engine loads. Plus the fact that The Mark is highly modified and will make more engine heat.
OK, I had to cancel these plans last month, as I almost went back to retired 30 year IBM employee status when IBM did not renew my now IBM contractor status Purchase Order.
Luckly, my contract was just approved, and renewed, so my hobby is back on track for at least the rest of this year! lol Don't tell Wendy though... I told her I was done spending money on that car!
Anyway, the plan is still the same - to remove the t-stat completely, and wire the Spal push fans to trigger on when the main pull fan turns on.
I dropped the car off today, and it should be done by tomorrow.
The car seems to be predictable with the temps - with A/C on or off, stop and go, interstate speed, the temps end up in the 220-245 range when I finally park the car.
I hope these latest mods get it down 10-20 degrees.
Next on the list if it doesn't cool it down is one of John Temples custom bumpers! I hope that bumper would allow room to unstack some of the coolers in front of the radiator, and improve air flow across them.
Luckly, my contract was just approved, and renewed, so my hobby is back on track for at least the rest of this year!
lol Don't tell Wendy though... I told her I was done spending money on that car! Anyway, the plan is still the same - to remove the t-stat completely, and wire the Spal push fans to trigger on when the main pull fan turns on.
I dropped the car off today, and it should be done by tomorrow.
The car seems to be predictable with the temps - with A/C on or off, stop and go, interstate speed, the temps end up in the 220-245 range when I finally park the car.
I hope these latest mods get it down 10-20 degrees.
Next on the list if it doesn't cool it down is one of John Temples custom bumpers! I hope that bumper would allow room to unstack some of the coolers in front of the radiator, and improve air flow across them.
lol Well, That didn't work Got the check coolant warning on the message center at 248 degrees just driving the car around town. It was at 250 when I parked it in the garage.
No steam or boil over. The car was running normal in fact. I did not notice anything out of the ordinary, other than the factory needle is pegged on hot at 250 degrees
It was around 79-80 degrees out today. I had the windows down, an the a/c off. I am going to wait and see what happens with John's bumper, and then decide if I am going to continue running the Evans coolant, or switch back to green coolant. I am not convinced the bumper is going to make a difference yet.
This has already been a real expensive experiment, and I am at the point of cutting my losses on the Evans, and just get a bigger radiator and go back to the green coolant.
Got the check coolant warning on the message center at 248 degrees just driving the car around town. It was at 250 when I parked it in the garage. No steam or boil over. The car was running normal in fact. I did not notice anything out of the ordinary, other than the factory needle is pegged on hot at 250 degrees
It was around 79-80 degrees out today. I had the windows down, an the a/c off. I am going to wait and see what happens with John's bumper, and then decide if I am going to continue running the Evans coolant, or switch back to green coolant. I am not convinced the bumper is going to make a difference yet.
This has already been a real expensive experiment, and I am at the point of cutting my losses on the Evans, and just get a bigger radiator and go back to the green coolant.
Dont suppose you ever thought of just trying a stock Mark VIII water pump back in it have you?
I know I have mentioned a few times about how the Cobra pump isnt as efficient as the Mark pump at lower RPMs.
Also are you running an underdrive crank pulley? If so have you overspun the water pump?
I know I have mentioned a few times about how the Cobra pump isnt as efficient as the Mark pump at lower RPMs.
Also are you running an underdrive crank pulley? If so have you overspun the water pump?
No, I have not considered going back to a Mark water pump, and I do not plan on changing it out. With the money I already have into this cooling system project, I could of had a Griffin radiator made and custom installed with green coolant.
I have a ATI 10% overdrive balancer on the car.
Don't get me wrong, Evans is doing the job, but, at much higher temps than I expected.
I have a ATI 10% overdrive balancer on the car.
Don't get me wrong, Evans is doing the job, but, at much higher temps than I expected.
wickedwhiteVIII
Well-Known LVC Member
those are some scary temps!!! hope it all works out for you.
driller
Dedicated LVC Member
Have you considered a bigger radiator with the Evans coolant?
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
I'd flush out that Evan's completely. Would be better off with distilled water and Water Wetter. Water Wetter does contain corrosion inhibitors and is supposed to hold up for 10 to 15,000 miles. During the winter, drain half and fill with regular anti-freeze. After all, this was a project. I think I would try a different project that doesn't pose a potential engine rebuild.
Evans recommends a minimum 2 row 1.25" tube aluminum radiator for 400+ hp motors.
I do not think the radiator in the car currently meets these requirements.
Originally, the car was built for 450 hp - s-trim and stock Mark motor, and at the time, I had no cooling issues a/c on or off with the radiator in the car now. This new 5.0 stroker t-trim motor is a different story.
I have used water wetter and also royal purple ice with the green coolant, and that was not good enough to run the car with the a/c on with the new motor.
We are talking up to 30 degrees higher temps with Evans vs green and half the pressure of green coolant - 16psi green vs 0-7psi for Evans.
With the 100% synthetic oils being used in the car, it is safe running the car at these temps, just a little unnerving. I would be happy to keep the temps around 220 - 230 range with the a/c on.
I do not think the radiator in the car currently meets these requirements.
Originally, the car was built for 450 hp - s-trim and stock Mark motor, and at the time, I had no cooling issues a/c on or off with the radiator in the car now. This new 5.0 stroker t-trim motor is a different story.
I have used water wetter and also royal purple ice with the green coolant, and that was not good enough to run the car with the a/c on with the new motor.
We are talking up to 30 degrees higher temps with Evans vs green and half the pressure of green coolant - 16psi green vs 0-7psi for Evans.
With the 100% synthetic oils being used in the car, it is safe running the car at these temps, just a little unnerving. I would be happy to keep the temps around 220 - 230 range with the a/c on.