02V8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
I PM'd him with the same question about his setup with no response yet.
Land Speed LS
- Thread starter cammerfe
- Start date
I PM'd him with the same question about his setup with no response yet.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
The boots should be flexible enough to work. I think mine have arrived so I'll have info Sat afternoon
KS
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Mustang COP---Boots and contact orientation
My Accel COPs arrived yesterday and I actually got them in hand this PM. As you must be aware from the information above, the boot sets at a slight angle to the coil body. However, the entire rubber/silicone boot is flexible. I've pretty much concluded that the mounting method will make it possible to use them right out of the box. At the moment, I expect to use some stainless sheet stock, if I can find it in the shop, to make hold-downs. When I get it done, I'll try to post a photo.The other thing that no one has mentioned is that the coil connector ends attached to the loom have to be flipped over to connect properly. I'll probably wait until monday and talk to Accel, since flipping the connection will result in the contacts being reversed as well. Depending on the internal construction of the coils, this may not be a good thing. More soon.
KS
My Accel COPs arrived yesterday and I actually got them in hand this PM. As you must be aware from the information above, the boot sets at a slight angle to the coil body. However, the entire rubber/silicone boot is flexible. I've pretty much concluded that the mounting method will make it possible to use them right out of the box. At the moment, I expect to use some stainless sheet stock, if I can find it in the shop, to make hold-downs. When I get it done, I'll try to post a photo.The other thing that no one has mentioned is that the coil connector ends attached to the loom have to be flipped over to connect properly. I'll probably wait until monday and talk to Accel, since flipping the connection will result in the contacts being reversed as well. Depending on the internal construction of the coils, this may not be a good thing. More soon.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Sometimes I seem to get crosseyed....
and can't see what's right in front of me. The connection on the Accel coil is upside down to the one on the factory coil, but it's not a mirror image as I thought on quick examination. It is ONLY upside down. There is no reversal of the contacts. MY BAD, as they say.
By the way, the raised ring on the top of the Accel boot seals the plug well in the cam cover so that there's little liklihood of water inside. The loom connections are regular 12 volt so there's no real problem with water when using the Accel COPs. I'm still a little at a loss as to mount connections due to the angle of the bend in the boots. More later.
KenS from Ben's Place
and can't see what's right in front of me. The connection on the Accel coil is upside down to the one on the factory coil, but it's not a mirror image as I thought on quick examination. It is ONLY upside down. There is no reversal of the contacts. MY BAD, as they say.
By the way, the raised ring on the top of the Accel boot seals the plug well in the cam cover so that there's little liklihood of water inside. The loom connections are regular 12 volt so there's no real problem with water when using the Accel COPs. I'm still a little at a loss as to mount connections due to the angle of the bend in the boots. More later.
KenS from Ben's Place
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
They're conductors so that the spring doesn't carry all the load. They also have the necessary characteristics to make sure that there's no RF interference to cause problems with the computer or the radio/speakers.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Frankly, I don't know. But just offhand, I'd think they wouldn't put them in there in the first place if they weren't necessary. It'd just add to the cost for no good reason.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
COP Update
I finished the installation of the Accel coils yesterday and have put about 50 miles on the car since finishing. Here's a quick rundown of my findings:
1. I used the coils just as they came from the box. This means I used the Accel boots. I did this because the boots have an enlarged area that corresponds with the top of the plug hole and seals it from any water intrusion.
2. I didn't use any additional fastener beyond the original cap screw, although for attractiveness I used stainless button head screws. Holding the coil in just the right place allows the screw to be placed back in the original hole. Please note that the hole will not completely line up; it will be necessary to push the coil body into place. (When I put these coils in the new engine I'll clearance the hole with a small rat tail file. Please also note that the coil will not be down solidly against the cam cover---use good judgement. More soon!
KenS from Ben's Place
I finished the installation of the Accel coils yesterday and have put about 50 miles on the car since finishing. Here's a quick rundown of my findings:
1. I used the coils just as they came from the box. This means I used the Accel boots. I did this because the boots have an enlarged area that corresponds with the top of the plug hole and seals it from any water intrusion.
2. I didn't use any additional fastener beyond the original cap screw, although for attractiveness I used stainless button head screws. Holding the coil in just the right place allows the screw to be placed back in the original hole. Please note that the hole will not completely line up; it will be necessary to push the coil body into place. (When I put these coils in the new engine I'll clearance the hole with a small rat tail file. Please also note that the coil will not be down solidly against the cam cover---use good judgement. More soon!
KenS from Ben's Place
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Patents and a case of 'Dithers'
I've been reading, (and participating in) the thread by ILLS that has degenerated into a case of dithers regarding trespassing on a patent. Let me tell a small story:
A number of years ago, I was involved in a mining operation in Nevada. I discovered that the Hollywood westerns depicting the marking of a mining claim and then rushing to record it is nothing more than a movie device. The US Bureau of Mines is perfectly happy to record the claims of any number of different people. They get paid for each one. And deciding who's the owner is left to the courts.
The same thing is true of a patent. Anyone can claim anything is owned and sue about it. "Anybody can sue anybody for anything, anytime.'' But the idea that substituting a turbocharger for a muffler is such a unique idea that it deserves protection from everybody who might also attempt it is balderdash. One could claim that the mechanism had a primary function of altering the exhaust sound. And moving a fluid (oil) from one place to another by use of a pump is also so general that no court would find in favor of restricting it. On the other hand, if you copied their pump design, there might be a problem. (I intend to use one section of a dry sump system for this purpose.)
If the company in question were to be so dumb as to try enforcing such a claim in court, the response would be to defend against them and upon winning, countersue for restraint and injury. Being sued could be looked upon as a life altering event. ("I'll never be the same!!! I wake up in the night in a cold sweat!!!") No intelligent company leadership, one with any sense would try such an attack, knowing that a loss in court would mean the loss of their entire company. But scare tactics can be very effective.
Let me suggest that, unless you have the skill and experience and facility, you let ILLS do your turbo installation. Then it'll be right and you needn't worry about patents.
JMO
KS
I've been reading, (and participating in) the thread by ILLS that has degenerated into a case of dithers regarding trespassing on a patent. Let me tell a small story:
A number of years ago, I was involved in a mining operation in Nevada. I discovered that the Hollywood westerns depicting the marking of a mining claim and then rushing to record it is nothing more than a movie device. The US Bureau of Mines is perfectly happy to record the claims of any number of different people. They get paid for each one. And deciding who's the owner is left to the courts.
The same thing is true of a patent. Anyone can claim anything is owned and sue about it. "Anybody can sue anybody for anything, anytime.'' But the idea that substituting a turbocharger for a muffler is such a unique idea that it deserves protection from everybody who might also attempt it is balderdash. One could claim that the mechanism had a primary function of altering the exhaust sound. And moving a fluid (oil) from one place to another by use of a pump is also so general that no court would find in favor of restricting it. On the other hand, if you copied their pump design, there might be a problem. (I intend to use one section of a dry sump system for this purpose.)
If the company in question were to be so dumb as to try enforcing such a claim in court, the response would be to defend against them and upon winning, countersue for restraint and injury. Being sued could be looked upon as a life altering event. ("I'll never be the same!!! I wake up in the night in a cold sweat!!!") No intelligent company leadership, one with any sense would try such an attack, knowing that a loss in court would mean the loss of their entire company. But scare tactics can be very effective.
Let me suggest that, unless you have the skill and experience and facility, you let ILLS do your turbo installation. Then it'll be right and you needn't worry about patents.
JMO
KS
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Comparison of 3.9/AJV-8 and Ford Mod Motor
As many of you will readily note, there are many similarities between the V-8 engine for the LS and the four cam 'Mod' motor to be found in the Mustang. Althought they are entirely different families, the basic engineering has obviously come from the same company. And because I'm in the process of working-up a twin-turbo package for my car, I'm also learning as much as I can aboutwhat's been done with the Mod engine in that same direction.
I've located a company whose principals are willing to be of help in this regard. Since they regularly build engines for drag Mustangs, their observations are of great help. Here's some of what I've found:
1. The main caps on the Mod motor are steel and bolt on individually with four bolts. The mains on the AJ are aluminium and part of a sump/girdle.
I have to go at the moment! More later--
KS
As many of you will readily note, there are many similarities between the V-8 engine for the LS and the four cam 'Mod' motor to be found in the Mustang. Althought they are entirely different families, the basic engineering has obviously come from the same company. And because I'm in the process of working-up a twin-turbo package for my car, I'm also learning as much as I can aboutwhat's been done with the Mod engine in that same direction.
I've located a company whose principals are willing to be of help in this regard. Since they regularly build engines for drag Mustangs, their observations are of great help. Here's some of what I've found:
1. The main caps on the Mod motor are steel and bolt on individually with four bolts. The mains on the AJ are aluminium and part of a sump/girdle.
I have to go at the moment! More later--
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Additional comments
1. The main caps on the Mod motor are steel and bolt on individually with four bolts. The mains on the AJ are aluminium and part of a sump/girdle.
2. Although the head designs are similar, the Mod has a somewhat more complicated valve actuation system. The cams act against rockers with roller ends that actuate the valves. The AJ uses 'bucket' followers that set over the valvesprings and have shims in direct contact with the cam lobes.
3. The heads of the Mod engine have longer intake runners cast into them and use an aluminium intake manifold. The AJ has very short runners and uses a composite manifold.
There are other differences and similarities. Probably the most outstanding characteristic of the Mod motor is that it seems to be almost routine to be able, by installing a turbo of appropriate size, to expect to have the output of the engine approach 2300 HP. And this from less than five litres. And the car running such an engine is mild-mannered enough to be driven over to the store after a pizza. You shouldn't expect to do it every day, of course, because that output level is high enough that rings don't last very long and probably bearings are short-lived also. But it does go to show what's possible.
Isn't that something to think about?
KenS from Ben's Place
KS
1. The main caps on the Mod motor are steel and bolt on individually with four bolts. The mains on the AJ are aluminium and part of a sump/girdle.
2. Although the head designs are similar, the Mod has a somewhat more complicated valve actuation system. The cams act against rockers with roller ends that actuate the valves. The AJ uses 'bucket' followers that set over the valvesprings and have shims in direct contact with the cam lobes.
3. The heads of the Mod engine have longer intake runners cast into them and use an aluminium intake manifold. The AJ has very short runners and uses a composite manifold.
There are other differences and similarities. Probably the most outstanding characteristic of the Mod motor is that it seems to be almost routine to be able, by installing a turbo of appropriate size, to expect to have the output of the engine approach 2300 HP. And this from less than five litres. And the car running such an engine is mild-mannered enough to be driven over to the store after a pizza. You shouldn't expect to do it every day, of course, because that output level is high enough that rings don't last very long and probably bearings are short-lived also. But it does go to show what's possible.
Isn't that something to think about?
KenS from Ben's Place
KS
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
I would definitely not call it "routine". Producing that kind of horsepower out of the 4.6 Modular V8 is not a walk in the park by any means and requires one hell of allot of engine upgrades ad well as external supporting mods also.
The average 4.6 2v turbocharged street car pushes 400-450rwhp on the stocker bottom end with a rock solid (safe) tune.
Average turbocharged 4.6 4v (non-forged...aka 96-01 Cobra or 03/04 Mach) pushes 450-500rwhp on the stock bottom end with a solid (safe) tune.
Average Terminator 4.6 4v (stock forged) pushes 700+rwhp on the stocker bottom end when turbocharged. Most usually reach between 750-900rwhp depending on the system used and the amount of boost being pushed.
Average forged or billet 4.6 4v with a TT + positive displacement blower combo will push 900-1600rwhp depending on what the combo is. At this point engine block (not shortblock) failure starts to be a possibility if it is pushed hard and without a rock solid tune.
The 4.6 engine blocks themselves are some real solid units but how much power they can support or help make is dependent on a ton of variables. While hitting 2,300hp on the 4.6 has been done before it should surely not be referred to as "routine" by any sense of the term.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
ILLS always seems to be the 'Voice of reason' for me. And his input is well thought out also. Let me amend my comments.
In order to sustain the above levels of output, it's usual to use a 'Ford GT' block. This is the aftermarket block from Ford and is a continuation of the blocks used in the supercar Ford GT.
This level of output from a drag engine seems to require a forged crank. Forged pistons and aluminium rods are, of course, a given.
However, with the extra quality parts in hand, the build-up of the 2K+ powerplant follows closely what would be expected of any high performance engine.
And the tuning must be 'spot-on' or the entire assembly will be rubble within a few seconds. (But only a few years ago, AA Fuel drag engines of unlimited size were hard-put to reach 1K of HP!!!)
'Routine' means that it's been done successfully on several occasions.
KS
In order to sustain the above levels of output, it's usual to use a 'Ford GT' block. This is the aftermarket block from Ford and is a continuation of the blocks used in the supercar Ford GT.
This level of output from a drag engine seems to require a forged crank. Forged pistons and aluminium rods are, of course, a given.
However, with the extra quality parts in hand, the build-up of the 2K+ powerplant follows closely what would be expected of any high performance engine.
And the tuning must be 'spot-on' or the entire assembly will be rubble within a few seconds. (But only a few years ago, AA Fuel drag engines of unlimited size were hard-put to reach 1K of HP!!!)
'Routine' means that it's been done successfully on several occasions.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Update
I took my crankshaft to Moldex Tool this afternoon. We have gotten far enough to decide on many of the dimensions, and the crank is in to be cut to size. We'll be using the standard main bearing size, and turning the rod throws to Honda diameter. Then they'll polish all the bearing surfaces and nitride for more wear-resistance.
The pistons are ordered in standard size but as HD forgings to take the load of the turbos and spray.
Later---
KS
I took my crankshaft to Moldex Tool this afternoon. We have gotten far enough to decide on many of the dimensions, and the crank is in to be cut to size. We'll be using the standard main bearing size, and turning the rod throws to Honda diameter. Then they'll polish all the bearing surfaces and nitride for more wear-resistance.
The pistons are ordered in standard size but as HD forgings to take the load of the turbos and spray.
Later---
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Update
One of the things I've discovered is that ordering custom pistons that don't seem to be the same size as anything else means that they truly have to be made from scratch. We're (design group at Ross pistons and self) largely creating a duplicate of the stock Jag four litre slug, but forged instead of cast. There are four small valve reliefs on an otherwise flat top, and because I'm using close-to stock valve sizes---just made of titanium--- the reliefs don't need to be changed. We will be using a larger diameter wrist pin due to its greater strength, but because I'm leaving it to the tech section at Ross as to the exact size increase, I'm not sure what we'll end up with. We'll also be using the latest in coatings---both for lubricity on the skirts and heat shielding on the crowns. All this takes a loooong time to accomplish. And I can't go ahead on spec'ing the rods until we get the small-end size chosen.
While we're waiting I may very well go back and re-visit the necessary changes to be able to put double-adjustable shocks on the LS. We ARE having fun.
KenS from Ben's Place
One of the things I've discovered is that ordering custom pistons that don't seem to be the same size as anything else means that they truly have to be made from scratch. We're (design group at Ross pistons and self) largely creating a duplicate of the stock Jag four litre slug, but forged instead of cast. There are four small valve reliefs on an otherwise flat top, and because I'm using close-to stock valve sizes---just made of titanium--- the reliefs don't need to be changed. We will be using a larger diameter wrist pin due to its greater strength, but because I'm leaving it to the tech section at Ross as to the exact size increase, I'm not sure what we'll end up with. We'll also be using the latest in coatings---both for lubricity on the skirts and heat shielding on the crowns. All this takes a loooong time to accomplish. And I can't go ahead on spec'ing the rods until we get the small-end size chosen.
While we're waiting I may very well go back and re-visit the necessary changes to be able to put double-adjustable shocks on the LS. We ARE having fun.
KenS from Ben's Place
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
In a word, yes. In order to make use of total duplicates, it'll be necessary to use an 86 MM stroke crank, as well as the 86 MM bore. But once having done the work, it's quite easy for Ross to make small differences on a re-order. 3.9 litre pistons don't have any valve reliefs, but the ones in the four litre are only about 1 CC each. I'm sure they'd welcome orders.
KS
KS
Good to know...
So you've got the pistons covered and the rods covered (Didn't you say you thought chevy rods would be a pretty close substitute in the 3.9L?), pistons covered. Any final decisions on the crank?
So you've got the pistons covered and the rods covered (Didn't you say you thought chevy rods would be a pretty close substitute in the 3.9L?), pistons covered. Any final decisions on the crank?
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Rotating-reciprocating assembly
Small block chibby rods could, at least theoretically, be made to work. The stock AJ crank has throws that are a metric size that's just larger than two inches, and one of the chivverlay sizes is two inches. SBC rods are available in a large variety of lengths, so it's possible to get a combination that'll fit. I'm using GRP aluminium rods that'll be made to fit the Moldex crank on the big end and fit whatever pin diameter is decided upon based on available space and strength requirements. Rod length to be determined by stack-up dimension of piston crown, ring lands and grooves, and pin diameter.
The crank is being done by Moldex and is using stock Jag main bearing diameter and 1.88 Honda rod journal size--as is common practice in Pro-Stock drag racing.
KenS
Small block chibby rods could, at least theoretically, be made to work. The stock AJ crank has throws that are a metric size that's just larger than two inches, and one of the chivverlay sizes is two inches. SBC rods are available in a large variety of lengths, so it's possible to get a combination that'll fit. I'm using GRP aluminium rods that'll be made to fit the Moldex crank on the big end and fit whatever pin diameter is decided upon based on available space and strength requirements. Rod length to be determined by stack-up dimension of piston crown, ring lands and grooves, and pin diameter.
The crank is being done by Moldex and is using stock Jag main bearing diameter and 1.88 Honda rod journal size--as is common practice in Pro-Stock drag racing.
KenS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Latest Info
Had an extended discussion with the tech people at Ross Pistons today, to be sure we're on the same page. They are building for me a set of billet pistons that are, in most ways, a copy of the cast stock pistons for the four litre Jag. The drains for the oil rings will be drilled instead of cast-in voids, and the full-floated pins are increased in diameter to the .927 sbc size and held in with double spira-locks at each end instead of the round wire stock items. Compression height and ring pack stack-up will remain 'factory'.
This approach will make it easily possible to duplicate for the 3.9. The major difference other than the pin diameter would the altered pin location due to the one MM difference in stroke. (The 3.9 has an 85 MM stroke instead of 86 MM of the 4.0.)
Pistons will be done, including pin fitting and applications of ceramic coating on the crown and lubricating coating on the skirt, in about three weeks.
KS
Had an extended discussion with the tech people at Ross Pistons today, to be sure we're on the same page. They are building for me a set of billet pistons that are, in most ways, a copy of the cast stock pistons for the four litre Jag. The drains for the oil rings will be drilled instead of cast-in voids, and the full-floated pins are increased in diameter to the .927 sbc size and held in with double spira-locks at each end instead of the round wire stock items. Compression height and ring pack stack-up will remain 'factory'.
This approach will make it easily possible to duplicate for the 3.9. The major difference other than the pin diameter would the altered pin location due to the one MM difference in stroke. (The 3.9 has an 85 MM stroke instead of 86 MM of the 4.0.)
Pistons will be done, including pin fitting and applications of ceramic coating on the crown and lubricating coating on the skirt, in about three weeks.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Connecting rods
While waiting for the pistons to be completed, I've been working on the rods. After a lot of back and forth, it looks as if the specifications go this way--
1. Rod length is 5.225 inches
2. Cap width is .822 inches
3. Big end fitted to 1.88 inch crank pin
Within the next several days I should have a possible delivery date.
KS
While waiting for the pistons to be completed, I've been working on the rods. After a lot of back and forth, it looks as if the specifications go this way--
1. Rod length is 5.225 inches
2. Cap width is .822 inches
3. Big end fitted to 1.88 inch crank pin
Within the next several days I should have a possible delivery date.
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Routine maintenance
While doing a little routine maintenance today, I took the time to pull the MAF body and spray out the tiny little hot wire with electronics cleaner. I also cleaned and re-oiled the filter that came with the induction set-up I got from Ken---LSK---about a year and a half ago. DO IT!!! Just by the Butt-O-Meter it must have given me-(gave me back)-about 20 f/p of torque. (I believe it takes about 20 or so before you can reliably feel it and there's no doubt that I can feel the difference.)
KS
While doing a little routine maintenance today, I took the time to pull the MAF body and spray out the tiny little hot wire with electronics cleaner. I also cleaned and re-oiled the filter that came with the induction set-up I got from Ken---LSK---about a year and a half ago. DO IT!!! Just by the Butt-O-Meter it must have given me-(gave me back)-about 20 f/p of torque. (I believe it takes about 20 or so before you can reliably feel it and there's no doubt that I can feel the difference.)
KS