US power and influence declines on Moronic Bush visions

Huckabee is flawed like all of us.
He seems less than informed when commenting on international events.
Some Republicans call him a liberal in disguise and soft on criminals.
Politics is war (where all attacks are fair) except you can get killed many times.
Time will soon tell if Huckabee can take the fire and impress more than his base.

A few from the cartoonists:
 
That 83% includes a whole spectrum from lapsed non practicing Christians who see the inside of a church only for baptisms, weddings and funerals, people who's parents are/were Christian so they say they're Christian if asked, to the devout evangelicals for whom Christianity is a large part of their identity.
I read somewhere that only about 40% attend church regularly so we're talking about a very disparate group here.
 
:D

From today
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22443302/

Mike Huckabee, a Republican relying on support from religious conservatives in Thursday's hard-fought Iowa presidential caucuses, on Sunday stood by a decade-old comment in which he said, "I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ."
;)


I think its got legs :D


Two games :D maybe three if Owens don't get the ball and pouts :D
The third will be bad for the pack if they can run that far.
The best quarterback for the Packers against the Cowboys this year was NOT Bret Favre.
 
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/



Huckabee Criticizes Romney For Lack of Executions in Massachusetts
Alex Knapp | Wednesday, January 2, 2008

Steve Benen mentions an interesting tidbit about the anti-Romney ad that Mike Huckabee doesn’t have the money to run on TV “refuses to run on principle”. Apparently, the ad criticizes Mitt Romney for the lack of executions in Massachusetts during Romney’s gubernatorial terms. As Benen points out:


Apparently, Huckabee — you know, the evangelical, pro-life Republican — is going after Romney for not having executed any Americans during his gubernatorial tenure.

I realize Republican politics are far more crass than norms should allow, but it’s disconcerting to think “You didn’t kill anyone” has suddenly become a criticism in conservative circles.

Frankly, I’m not surprised about using a “law and order” critique in Republican politics. Is it crass for Huckabee to use? Absolutely (disclosure - I am absolutely opposed to the death penalty. And, for that matter, the correctional system that we’ve developed in this country). But regardless of the merits of the death penalty, the funniest thing about this line of attack on Romney is that it shows Mike Huckabee’s manifest ignorance with the concept of the separation of powers and the job of governing. First of all, this is because there is no death penality in Massachusetts! So in order for there to have been executions under Mitt Romney’s term, the state legislature would have had to adopted one. They did not–even though Romney did introduce a bill to reinstate the death penalty.

The second problem with this line of attack is that even if Massachusetts did have a death penalty, the governor of the state would have nothing whatsoever to do with actual executions. That is, of course, the role of the judiciary. The only involvement that a governor might have is that of granting clemency or pardon to a convict on death row. (And, to his enormous discredit, Mitt Romney apparently never granted clemency or pardon once during his terms.)

This isn’t high level stuff here. Anyone with a basic high school civics class under their belt–or hell, anyone’s who’s ever watched a couple of episodes of Law and Order–knows perfectly well that the governor plays virtually no role in executions.

Explain to me why Mike Huckabee is surging in the polls again? Surely Republican voters are looking for some basic level of competence and decency in their candidates. At least, I hope they are
 
So, when Hillary uses a fake southern accent to try to appeal to southern voters does that also tell you that she's not strong enough to win on her own? Instead, she has to disingenuously pander to southern voters. Also, you're probably right in that Huckabee has asked God for help through prayer--After all, he is Christian, and Christians do appeal to God for help.

Rush said it best today: Huckabee is engaged in identity politics. He's appealing to people to ignore his record and vote for him because he's a Christian, just as Hillary is saying vote for her because she's a woman and Obama is saying vote for him because he's black.

Huckabee is also trying to say, don't vote for Romney because he's NOT a Christian. Again, identity politics.
 
The card players

34417225.jpg
 
That 83% includes a whole spectrum from lapsed non practicing Christians who see the inside of a church only for baptisms, weddings and funerals, people who's parents are/were Christian so they say they're Christian if asked, to the devout evangelicals for whom Christianity is a large part of their identity.
I read somewhere that only about 40% attend church regularly so we're talking about a very disparate group here.
I highly doubt that adults (at least anything worth mentioning) are going to identify themselves as Christians simply because their parents were/are. :D So what percentage said they were Christians because their parents were? Just because people aren't regular churchgoers doesn't mean they have forgotten Judeo-Christian principles.

In 2004 to present, many state legislatures have passed legislation or the people have amended their respective state's constitution banning same-sex marriage. No doubt a significant percentage of those in favor of banning same-sex marriage would identify Judeo-Christian principles as the reason for supporting such a ban--even thought they were not necessarily regular churchgoers. Your apparent view that only regular churchgoers view Judeo-Christian principles as being important is a skewed and unsupported view.
 
Personally, I dont care what a candidate's religous beliefs are. I dont choose or not choose a candidate based upon his religon and I dont hold it against them either. I just dont want to hear about them every other minute. I also wouldnt want to go to work every day and hear my boss tell me that he prayed last night about what to do to improve our company.

To me, religon is a private thing.

That said - I'm starting to lean toward Huckabee. But its still way early. I wont be voting in the primaries so I have to wait and see who the real candidates are.
 
I'm just always wary of the politician who hides his shortcomings by invoking God.

Could you clarify this a bit?

What do you mean by someone who "hides their shortcomings by invoking God"?
 
That 83% includes a whole spectrum from lapsed non practicing Christians who see the inside of a church only for baptisms, weddings and funerals, people who's parents are/were Christian so they say they're Christian if asked, to the devout evangelicals for whom Christianity is a large part of their identity.
I read somewhere that only about 40% attend church regularly so we're talking about a very disparate group here.


Iwould probably be in that 83%. I grew up in the Church and and have many Christian values instilled in me, though I haven't attended Church in years (except for special occasions). I personally belive God exists (something had to cause the big bang), but not so sure I trust the big guy; not so sure the majority of the 83% who don't go to chruch would agree with that last bit.

I do have a tremendous respect for Christianity as I have seen the change it brings about it people, and the good things it has accomplish (which far outweigh the bad, IMO).

This country is still largely Christian, even if it isn't practicing it. Those values are still central to the vast majority of our polulation. Our country was founded on those principals and Christianity. The founders cited the Bible more often then any other source in influencing the founding documents.

John Adams said, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”

Justice Story wrote,"The real object the First Amendment was, not to countenance, much less to advance Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infeidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment, which should give to an hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government."

America’s unique limited government and her freedoms are a direct outgrowth of the Christian religion.
 
Some people have a different opinion:

The position that the United States is a "Christian Nation" is dealt a serious blow by the fact that, as early as 1797, the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."

Read on:


Is This a Christian Nation?
Myths About the Separation of Church and State

Myth:
The United States is a Christian Nation.



Response: This can be taken a couple of different ways, some valid and some not. It could mean simply that a majority of Americans are Christian and/or have always been Christian. This is true. It could mean that American society has been heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and traditions. This is also true. These are, however, simply factual observations and do not mean much when it comes to political and legal action.

The most common meaning behind the above claim is that America is "Christian" in the sense that it represents Christian doctrines, beliefs and goals. It is "Christian" in the same way that a Methodist congregation is "Christian" - it exists for the sake of believing Christians and is supposed to aid people in being Christians.

Upon what can such a position be based? One way is to argue from the fact that many who came here were Christians fleeing persecution in Europe. Aside from the irony of using past persecution to justify contemporary persecution, this merely confuses the context of how and why the continent was settled with how and why the United States, as a legal entity, was created.

Another argument made is that the early colonies normally had established churches and the governments actively supported Christianity. This is not, however, a very effective argument, because it was exactly this against which many people fought. The First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit established churches, and at the Constitutional Convention, attempts to write in some sort of nominal support for Christianity always failed. In addition, the people at the time were distinctly "unchurched." The best estimates indicate that only 10% to 15% of the population actually attended church services.

It is true that Ben Franklin proposed that delegates at the Convention open their sessions with morning prayers, and people who oppose the separation of church and state try to make a lot out of this. According to the records, Franklin suggested that "henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business."

Aside from the fact that such a prayer clearly isn't very Christian in nature, what is usually left unsaid is the fact that his proposal was never accepted. Indeed, delegates didn't even bother voting on it - instead, they voted to adjourn for the day! The proposal was not taken up the next day, and Franklin never bothered to mention it again. Sometimes, unfortunately, religious leaders will actually claim that this proposal was accepted, a distortion which appears to have originated with Senator Willis Robertson, father of Religious Right leader Pat Robertson.

The delegates' refusal to base this nation on Christianity can also be seen in the fact that neither God nor Christianity are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. In the main part of the Constitution, the only mention of religion is that there should be no "religious tests" for public office. The First Amendment, then, prohibits the government from either establishing religion or interfering with people's religious beliefs. At the time, more than one critic denounced the Constitution as a "godless document" - hardly the product of people seeking to establish a "Christian Nation," is it? This was not an error or an oversight - it was a deliberate attempt to frame the nature of our government and political system in secular, worldly terms.

It is occasionally argued by a few desperate people that the Constitution ends with the date stated as "in the year of our Lord." This is not, however, an effort to establish the nation as a Christian nation. This is rather the way people dated documents at the time and the fact is the West operates on a Christian dating system. Using Christian dates, then, is a reflection of the influence Christianity has had on our culture and not a reflection of the basis for our political system.

The position that the United States is a "Christian Nation" is dealt a serious blow by the fact that, as early as 1797, the government specifically said that it is not a Christian Nation. The occasion was a peace and trade agreement between the United States and Muslim leaders in North Africa. The negotiations were conducted under the authority of George Washington, and the final document, known as the Treaty of Tripoli, was approved of by the Senate under the leadership of John Adams, the second president. This treaty states, without equivocation, that the "...Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."

Contrary to the claims made by some from the Religious Right, America was not founded as a Christian Nation which was then later undermined by godless liberals and humanists. Just the opposite is the case, actually. The Constitution is a godless document and the government of the United States was set up as a formally secular institution. It has, however, been undermined by well-meaning Christians who have sought to subvert its secular principles and framework for the sake of this or that "good cause," usually in the interest of promoting this or that religious doctrine.



But the Supreme Court has ruled that this is a Christian Nation

This misunderstanding is based upon the Supreme Court's decision in Holy Trinity Church v. United States, issued in 1892 and written by Justice David Brewer:

These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

The case itself involved a federal law which prohibited any company or group to prepay the transportation costs of a non-citizen coming to the United States to work for that company or organization, or indeed even encourage such people from coming here.

This was challenged by Holy Trinity Church, which had contracted with E. Walpole Warren, an Englishman, to come and be a rector for their congregation. In the decision, Brewer found that the legislation was overly broad because it applied to much more than it should have. He did not, however, base his decision on the idea that, legally and politically, the United State is a "Christian Nation."

Quite the contrary - the things he lists as indicating that this is a "Christian Nation" he specifically labels as "unofficial declarations." Brewer's point was merely that the people in this country are Christian - thus, it seemed unlikely that the legislators actually meant to prohibit churches from inviting famous and prominent religious leaders (even Jewish rabbis) from coming here and serving their congregations. Perhaps realizing his error and the possibility of misinterpretation, Justice Brewer published a book in 1905 titled The United States: A Christian Nation. In it he wrote:

But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all.

[...]

Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.

His decision was not, therefore, any attempt by Brewer to argue that the laws in the United States should enforce Christianity or reflect solely Christian concerns and beliefs. He was simply making an observation which is consistent with the first two, historical interpretations above: that people in this country are Christian.

-->
From Austin Cline,
Your Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism
 
And yet, as recently as 1954 the United States Congress put the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. And in 2004 our Supreme Court upheld this insertion.

Negates the premise of the entire article.

*owned*
 
The Justices ducked the issue with the pledge case.

While all eight justices who participated in the case voted to overturn a 2003 federal appeals court decision that would have barred the phrase in public schools as a violation of the constitutional ban on state-sponsored religion, a majority of five did so exclusively on procedural grounds, ruling that the atheist who brought the case, Michael A. Newdow, lacked legal standing to sue.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said in a prepared statement: "The justices ducked this constitutional issue today, but it is certain to come back in the future."

Your examples do not negate the assertion that the US was not founded on solely Christian principles as some would want us to believe.

The "Under God" insertion in the pledge was put in by Eisenhour to distinguish us from the 'Godless" Communists and in and of itself does not make the US an official Christian nation, just one that respects the free expression of religion(s).
The US is a "Christian " nation in that there are a lot of Christians in the country but their ranks are slowly declining having slipped by 9% from 1985 to 2000, and projections show that if current trends continue Christians will be a minority by 2050 or sooner.
 
... projections show that if current trends continue Christians will be a minority by 2050 or sooner.
Really! What race and what religion will be in the lead, or is it just that the "Christians" will still be in the lead at 49.9%.

Really an tnterested to hear the race/religious group that is supposed to make such huge strides against the "Christians".
 
Athiests and people who do not subscribe to any religion would seem to be the largest growing group-a projected majority while individually still minorities.
Of course if we annexed Mexico with it's almost exclusive Christian population.....


http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris.pdf

KEY FINDINGS
1. Religious Identification Among American Adults
The first area of inquiry in ARIS 2001 concerns the response of American adults to the
question: “What is your religion, if any?” This question generated more than a hundred
different categories of response, which we classified into the sixty-five categories shown
in Exhibit 1 below.
In 1990, ninety percent of the adult population identified with one or another religion
group. In 2001, such identification has dropped to eighty-one percent.
Where possible, every effort was made to re-create the categories respondents offered to
the nearly identical question as in the NSRI 1990 survey.5
As is readily apparent from the first Exhibit below, the major changes between the results
of the 1990 survey and the current survey are:
a. the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has
declined from eighty-six in 1990 to seventy-seven percent in 2001;
b. although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-
Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to
about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only
by a very small amount – from 3.3 % to about 3.7 %;
c. the GREATEST increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has
been among those ADULTS WHO DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO ANY RELIGIOUS
IDENTIFICATION; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend has continued, then: at the present time (2007-MAY), only 71% of American adults consider themselves Christians
The percentage will dip below 70% in 2008
By about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S
 
The Justices ducked the issue with the pledge case.

While all eight justices who participated in the case voted to overturn a 2003 federal appeals court decision that would have barred the phrase in public schools as a violation of the constitutional ban on state-sponsored religion, a majority of five did so exclusively on procedural grounds, ruling that the atheist who brought the case, Michael A. Newdow, lacked legal standing to sue.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said in a prepared statement: "The justices ducked this constitutional issue today, but it is certain to come back in the future."

Your examples do not negate the assertion that the US was not founded on solely Christian principles as some would want us to believe.

The "Under God" insertion in the pledge was put in by Eisenhour to distinguish us from the 'Godless" Communists and in and of itself does not make the US an official Christian nation, just one that respects the free expression of religion(s).
The US is a "Christian " nation in that there are a lot of Christians in the country but their ranks are slowly declining having slipped by 9% from 1985 to 2000, and projections show that if current trends continue Christians will be a minority by 2050 or sooner.

You are WRONG. Michael Newdow is a rabid, angry activist and he was properly smacked down.

Under God was put in by CONGRESS and signed by the President. Your argument that it was to distinguish us from the communists is unpersuasive and frankly not believable.
 
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm


In 1953, the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus mounted a campaign to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. The nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, a reported 15 resolutions were initiated in Congress to change the pledge. They got nowhere until Rev. George Docherty (1911 - ) preached a sermon that was attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps on 1954-FEB-7. His sermon said in part: "Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow." After the service, President Eisenhower said that he agreed with the sermon. In the following weeks, the news spread, and public opinion grew. Three days later, Senator Homer Ferguson, (R-MI), sponsored a bill to add God to the Pledge. It was approved as a joint resolution 1954-JUN-8. It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time: "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." 4 With the addition of "under God" to the Pledge, it became both "a patriotic oath and a public prayer...Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change." 3

The change was partly motivated by a desire to differentiate between communism, which promotes Atheism, and Western capitalistic democracies, which were at least nominally Christian. The phrase "Atheistic Communists" has been repeated so many times that the public has linked Atheism with communism; the two are often considered synonymous. Many consider Atheism as unpatriotic and "un-American" as is communism.

Most communists, worldwide, are Atheists. But, in North America, the reverse is not true; most Atheists are non-communists. Although there are many Atheistic and Humanistic legislators at the federal and state levels, few if any are willing to reveal their beliefs, because of the intense prejudice against these belief systems.

The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review this change to the Pledge. The Court has commented in passing on the motto saying that: "[o]ur previous opinions have considered in dicta the motto and the pledge [of allegiance], characterizing them as consistent with the proposition that government may not communicate an endorsement of religious belief." [Allegheny, 492 U.S.]
 
"And yet, as recently as 1954 the United States Congress put the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. And in 2004 our Supreme Court upheld this insertion.

Negates the premise of the entire article."

putting under god in the pledge in 1954 hardly makes the arguement for being FOUNDED christian. under god still doesn't state any denomination either.
unowned.
 

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