UH-OH Lincoln WAR

mark0101 said:
:shifty: knew there would be one from the LS guys

Oh, that's a good one....I'll let you think of me how you would please. As it's been stated in this thread many times, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Most people will be able to read my post and see the unbiased comments....Mark's are nice cars. I've looked at several. Just need those 2 extra doors.
 
Well we might all be bowing down to the MKZ as far acceleration goes. Cars.com is suggesting a 0-60 time of 5.78 and a ¼ mile @ 14.34 for the AWD version. IIRC that is faster times than our LS’s. So we might be beaten by a V6. Granted it is still a FWD car but those are better numbers than our stock LS V8s. If FORD puts the 3.5 into most of their cars like said they will do, then the aftermarket should make them very comparable to a modded 4.6. Especially if there is a twin turbo setup available someday. Oh and it should also pull .87 lateral Gs and do the slalom at 61 mph. Not to bad for a luxury car. I don’t recall the Gs a Mark or LS can pull. Just a shame about the FWD. The local Lincoln dealer has one hear on the showroom. I’m gonna try to check it out this weekend.

Mespock thanks for showing the MARK guys can be civilized.
 
Boomhower said:
Oh, that's a good one....I'll let you think of me how you would please. As it's been stated in this thread many times, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Most people will be able to read my post and see the unbiased comments....Mark's are nice cars. I've looked at several. Just need those 2 extra doors.
I didn't mean you were the one;)

(postalUT)
 
TheRebel said:
"Granted it is still a FWD car"

Mespock thanks for showing the MARK guys can be civilized.

FWD... Ahhhh!!! don't care how quick or fast.. There is nothing like RWD...

I guess if an old guy needs the FWD feature to help get through the snow...

Sorry not for me!! No way...

If I can't get a RWD Lincoln I'll be happy with a Mustang... (Mods Mods Mods Mods Mods).

Oh and thanks Rebel..... most really are pretty civilized... it's usually the young'ins... that get a little loose.

With the price of a Mark VIII in the $2000 to $7000 range we get a lot of young'ins, some get a little ricerish once in awhile.

They aslo get fustrated with the repairs. Can't figure out when you drive them hard everyday to school and after school and even harder on the weekend that these 10yr+ old cars are having parts that are braking. Then not knowing what to do take them to a shop and find out that the shops charge an arm and a leg plus your first born to work on them.:eek:

Thanks to LvC I've saved $1000s keeping mine 3 Mark VIII's up to par.
 
StinkinLinkinLS01 said:
Gauranteed this guy is not a day over 22 years old. The VIII is a badass car and with new suspension, tint, rims, exhaust, and all the other goodies you can make them very sleek, unique looking 13, even 12 or 11 second cars on the stock motor. You just can't do that with the LS. I debated purchasing an VIII before I got the LS but I didn't want to deal with the air suspension. Plus the VIII no longer cuts in termsstyling when it comes to a luxury vehicle in today's world. It may have all, or most, of the bells and whistles, but I feel much better rolling in my LS than I ever would an VIII, unless I'm rolling down the track doin a 140, that is a different story...hehehe.

I think most here agree that both cars are awesome cars. Their are just some retards that like to ruin things everywhere they go, not just Lincoln forums but everything. You all know the kind of people I'm talkin' about. The one's picking fights at parties, cutting people off on the highway, smokin' rocks. Hahaha, well that last one was a joke but you all get the point.


I'll be 20 next month, smart a**

As for styling... are you kidding? Certainly it is unique, but unique does not make it good looking. If you need an example, let's list a few: PT Cruiser, Honda Ridgeline, anything from Scion.

Hmm, all those Ford and Lincoln engineers who worked on the DEW-98 development team would certainly be surprised to learn that they worked for Jaguar. DEW-98 was NOT developed by Jaguar; it was a joint project between Ford, Lincoln, and Jaguar.

As for the engine and tranny being Jaguar designs, the AJ39 block is a Jaguar-designed block, but the lower end has as much Cosworth DNA as Jaguar, and the intake, heads, and engine control systems are all Lincoln. (And let's not forget that the Duratec 30 V6es are all Ford/Lincoln.) The 5R55N and 5R55S are Ford transmissions, and the 5-speed manual is a Getrag unit; not one of them is a Jaguar.

...and the headlights are from Germany, and the tires came from Canada, and the bulls that donated the leather were from Texas. You could go on and on and on like that for ANY car. Lest we not forget that the first car to be devolped on that platform WAS the Jaguar S-type, though they were both released during the 2000 model year. The platform is so stout that they're still making the S-type using the same chassis.

On the other hand the Mark VIII was based on the FN-10 platform, which was also used to make, nothing else... Though it WAS based on the FN-12 platform shared by the Thunderbird and the Couger (and we know how hot these cars are!!!). Of course I'm being sarcastic

My "family sedan" rocks taint.


So what would you rather drive:
this
Ford_Thunderbird_Turbo_Coupe_1987.jpg


or this
250px-2004_Jaguar_S-Type.jpg
 
Even the Zephyr is 2/10 of a second behind the ls. and i dont even think its a sports car. :( :(
 
95LSC 2FAST4U said:
Awww, Slow Ls Is Mad His Junk Runs 15.5's At Best And Not What A Bone Stock Mark 8 Will Run And Thats 14.99 @97

It Is Impossible For An Ls To Do A 13.88, It Would Fall Apart..

I Know Your Mad And Pretty Sad A 73 Year Old Man Can Blow Up A V8.. The Biggest Shame On Fors Is That 3.9 And The Ls..

As Far As Mouths, Least Mine Dont Have A Love Gun Stuck In It..

By The Way, You Pee Out Of The Love Gun Too, So Figure It Out Loser !!

Now That I Have Brought Reality To Ls Owners, Except Of Imbreed Dude From Texas, So I Am Out, Dont Expect Reply Might Be Another 6 Months Before Logging On. Our Semi- Annual Rain Event Is Almost Over, Time To Go Racing..

Ls Owners Cant Do That, They Run On The Street Against Hyundas And Hondas And Kias And Win 50% Of The Time, When In Vegas, Email Me So We Can Race Saturday At The Speedway, $10 On Me...i Will Accept Any Wager, This Is Nevada...


Im up for it. any wager? simply pay my $10 entrance, ship my LS down there from NY, and buy me a steak dinner (with corn, and cream spinich) when you see a 13.3 @104mph pop up on the bourd right before you cross that line with your 13.8 (maybe better.. who knows you'll see it before I do)...I'll even drive it back to save you a little money and face. mark 8 is a nice car don't get me wrong but it reminds me way too much of my old Thunderbird.
 
VanDarela said:
Im up for it. any wager? simply pay my $10 entrance, ship my LS down there from NY, and buy me a steak dinner (with corn, and cream spinich) when you see a 13.3 @104mph pop up on the bourd right before you cross that line with your 13.8 (maybe better.. who knows you'll see it before I do)...I'll even drive it back to save you a little money and face. mark 8 is a nice car don't get me wrong but it reminds me way too much of my old Thunderbird.

Because more or less, it is an old thunderbird
 
postalUT said:
...and the headlights are from Germany, and the tires came from Canada, and the bulls that donated the leather were from Texas. You could go on and on and on like that for ANY car. Lest we not forget that the first car to be devolped on that platform WAS the Jaguar S-type, though they were both released during the 2000 model year. The platform is so stout that they're still making the S-type using the same chassis.
I'm sure you have a point, but what is it? You claimed that the LS (particularly its engine, chassis, and tranny) is essentially a Jaguar; I refuted that claim. I don't care what the sources of the parts are; if we're going by that, then the LS isn't even close to being a Jag, as none of its parts are built by Jaguar. Even the AJ39 is built in the US.

The LS and S-Type were developed concurrently; the difference in time between the release of the S-Type and LS is so small as to be negligible in terms of development. The S-Type was simply first to market, and there are possible explanations for that which have nothing to do with which car was developed first. Perhaps you've heard about the internal politics of PAG and Lincoln's ill-fated tenure in PAG?

The simple fact is that I almost bought two Mark VIIIs, and I have owned two LSes (and still own the second), so my preference is obvious, but I think the LS is more than capable of standing on its own, without relying on conjecture that's not supported by the facts.
postalUT said:
So what would you rather drive:
this
Ford_Thunderbird_Turbo_Coupe_1987.jpg
That T-Bird (apparently an '87) bears no resemblance to the Mark VIII. That's the last of the old Fox T-Birds, not the MN-12 that was introduced in '89.
 
I agree - read this -

http://www.designnews.com/article/CA86948.html

Lincoln/Jaguar marriage bears first fruit
International design teams give birth to high-spirited offspring, each with distinctive traits
International design teams give birth to high-spirited offspring, each with distinctive traits By Rick DeMeis, Senior Editor -- Design News, July 19, 1999

When Ford took Jaguar in corporate marriage back in December 1989, the union was blessed with skepticism not only by many consignetti but some of those at the British-based company as well. As one long-time owner puts it, "Could Ford continue the heritage of the cars without meddling in the product design, feel, and reputation for exclusivity? It was looked on by many die-hards as tantamount to a sell out." (Although, keep in mind some loyalists thought Jaguar lost some of it's appeal when the cars stopped leaking and periodically breaking down after some terrible quality problems in the early '80s).
Well rest easy, if not merry, gentlemen (and ladies), nothing to dismay. After nearly a decade, the union has infused Jaguar with quality improvements, from Ford's process technologies, and cost savings, from a wider supplier base and economies of scale enough so that the UK manufacturer was probably rescued from disappearing altogether. This rejuvenation has allowed Jaguar not only to prosper in its traditional luxury market, with its in-house designed XJ sedans (see Design News 12/1/97, p. 74) and XK8 sports cars, but broaden it now with the joint Ford- and Jaguar-developed platform supporting the Jaguar S-Type and Lincoln LS sedans (along with a Ford Thunderbird waiting in the wings). The cars are designed to appeal to drivers traditionally looking to BMW for handling, performance, and luxury.


The words "joint platform" may make many aficionados cringe with memories of merely renamed Dodge Aspens and Plymouth Volares dancing in their heads. "A joint platform can be a disaster or a success," says David Szczupak, Jaguar's chief program engineer for the S-Type. "Our challenge (with Lincoln) was to deliver in parallel two unique cars using a common architecture. With two different models, where then could you design together, using quality systems, without compromising the character of the cars?"
Commonality, but with distinction. While designers wanted to keep the cars distinct, Szczupak says they knew significant savings could be realized in many areas "if done right." For example, both cars would need items such as fuel-system and climate-control components, basic transmissions, axles, etc. that could be procured in common for design and volume cost savings. "But the Jaguar would have to ride and handle differently, with a different powertrain, and shift-pattern and air-conditioning software," he emphasizes. The platform's suspension geometry is common in castings, but aligned, tuned, and damped to produce distinct feel and control. Shock absorbers (see sidebar) and power steering valving are different as well.
Because of the joint development, "Both cars are better," notes Szczupak. Not just in common components, but in drawing from expertise in both organizations. In the three-year development, engineers worked together in co-located design teams at each company where needed. Jaguar engineers served on teams in the U.S., while their Ford counterparts similarly went to England.
Szczupak says key co-developments were the suspension geometry and initial crash-worthiness work. For these, the teams did CAD and stress analysis with Ford's now-standard I-DEAS Master Series from SDRC (Milford, OH), and MADYMO by TNO-MADYMO North America (Northville, MI), respectively.

KEY: Purple - different components Blue - common components Yellow - common elements tuned differently and/or having some different parts.
One program aim was to develop common S-Type/LS components to save cost and be ‘transparent’ to the driver. Unique features
give each car its own characteristics.
Quality keys. Szczupak also notes program-management and quality-planning software that Ford developed and brought to the Jaguar enterprise as vital to S-Type development. In particular, he cites dynamic program simulation that ties together engineering, logistics, and management concerns to allocate program resources and determine the implications of decisions. Also noteworthy was Advanced Quality Planning, which also involves suppliers, and uses Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA) to anticipate, analyze, and remove potential quality problems. The cross-functional design teams used FMEAs to determine the best designs and methods of manufacture.
Ken Kohrs, Ford vice-president for large and luxury cars notes, "The LS used more CAE and reliability testing and analysis than any vehicle we have ever done." Company designers also used Mechanical Dynamics (Ann Arbor, MI) ADAMS software, previously used to simulate race car performance, to virtually evaluate different handling characteristics before development time and money, and prototype hardware, were committed.
At Jaguar, engineers additionally worked with knowledge-based engineering software from Knowledge Technologies International (KTI, Lexington, MA), which combines CAD inputs with rules-based expert systems. Szczupak specifically notes material-thickness optimization using strength-to-weight criteria; location and orientation of the GPS navigation antenna under the rear-window shelf to maximize viewing of the necessary three satellites; and a virtual mannequin for ergonomic and safety studies.

Cross-fertilization. Asked if there were mindsets or corporate cultures to be merged, Jaguar's Szczupak says, "Engineers the world over have a common understanding of goals and what needs to be delivered. In both organizations, they are customer-focused today."
Down in the design trenches, one young Ford dynamics engineer was enthusiastic about how each company's engineers learned from their counterparts, not just on the early co-development teams, but also in trouble shooting problems as each car independently matured. He notes, for example, brainstorming to make the best steering refinements in response to a similar undesirable characteristic. "The Jaguar guys were fantastic, they are very skilled in empirical vehicle evaluation they can jump in a car and tell you what's wrong. We're more analytic, and complemented each other well. They helped us design in ride comfort, which is very subjective, and seems to hinge on audible and other cues, and thus hard to model." He feels with fewer models, Jaguar engineers "have a good feel for what a car should be as a Jaguar. We have so many models and move between programs, getting wider experience, but may not have such a seat-of-the-pants feel."
Szczupak adds the new Jaguar factory producing the car allowed company designers to use processes and quality methods gained from Ford to be applied to Jaguar's smaller volume base. "Jaguar brings richness to the party in our global awareness engineers able to meet needs around the world which helps the Lincoln LS be a world car. We bring knowledge of small-volume, high-quality markets where the key is how you manage with less investment, automation, and fewer people." He notes that the performance sedan customer is demanding, but model sales are limited to perhaps a couple of hundred thousand worldwide thus a quality product must be efficiently manufactured.
Likewise, Charles Repp, chief Lincoln LS program engineer, notes that Ford benefits from Jaguar's experience in targeting the LS for Japan and Europe as well as the U.S. He cites specific Jaguar technology, such as precision variable-ratio, speed-sensitive, rack-and-pinion steering. By designing the LS for European front-offset and side-impact safety mandates, engineers exceeded U.S. requirements with the common platform's crash structure.
Szczupak mentions that the S-Type's needs in a six-cylinder engine were best met using the lower half of Ford's Duratec V6 with a different top end. He concludes, "I'm most pleased about how the teams managed to 'mature' the car to deliver character, ride, and feedback in driving whether handling sprightly or on the limit of adhesion."
For the LS, Ford also folded its racing experience into the mix. Fine tuning the vehicle to take on Autobahn-dominating BMW in handling and performance, the company called on Hau Thai-Tang as development engineer. His experience was concentrated on tweaking LS dynamics. Other steering and suspension team members spent time in Formula 1 Racing.
Thus, the common-platform development program not only tapped joint technology resources and tools, but gave designers the flexibility and components to produce two cars for the world market distinct for each company's customers.
Common heritage: Other S-Type and LS technologies
• Anti-dive rear suspension geometry to minimize pitching during braking or acceleration
• Double-rail torque boxes run along frame sides for strength
• Aluminum support structure and suspension components save weight
________________________________________
Cross-continent design team tips
Charles Repp, Lincoln LS chief program engineer, serves a recipe for successful international design:
• Co-located design teams: set up early for technology and expertise cross-pollination
• Face-to-face meetings with counterparts for understanding
• Communication, including teleconferencing and the Internet: phase communications and queries to take advantage of international time differences, allowing the program to function 'round the clock; while you can't get away from personal contact, much can be seen by "throwing a drawing on the wall during a video teleconference"
• Compatible computer systems avoid data-file conversion delays and problems
• Visit markets to find needs: for example, Ford was able to see the value of different spec shock valves on the LS by determining roadway differences in its markets
• Best practices: merge design criteria and modify standards for a world market
________________________________________
5 keys to S-Type/LS quality
Quality methods used by Ford, and instilled in the Jaguar organization as well, are cited by both as critical in the joint LS/S-Type development:
1. Cross-functional program module teams: interchange of expertise and technology among Ford, Jaguar, and suppliers
2. Supplier initiatives: early involvement to ensure understanding design and quality requirements
3. Dynamic program simulation: simulate the development program, its people and skills, needed to deliver on time
4. Advanced Quality Planning: program checkpoints that must be met to deliver a quality product
5. World-Class Timing development process: schedule, with flexibility, all product development activities, and monitor against targets and milestones
________________________________________
Timeline for Design
Mid '80s: Jaguar wants to develop
S-Type-class car but financial losses prevent it
December 1989: Ford buys Jaguar
1993: Jaguar's Browns Lane plant modernized
Late 1994: Lincoln looks at joint development but Jaguar occupied with new XJ6 series
Late 1995: S-Type/LS program approval
May 1999: built in an all-new plant, S-Type goes on sale
June 1999: LS goes on sale
2001: Small Ford/Jaguar common-platform sedan to debut
________________________________________
Shock truths: different strokes for different cars
While the LS and S-Type share suspension geometry, here's why their design teams selected different shock absorbers to help tune the distinct characteristics desired into each.
Ford engineers picked twin-tube shocks. LS Vehicle Development Manager Hau Thai-Tang notes the Monroe twin-tubes give the car "crisp roll damping, right away." Both a base and piston valve are available for tuning. Also surface quality of the outer tube is not critical if made out of round by rock impacts or being dropped during installation. A disadvantage is a tendency of oil to cavitate, lowering damping, during repeated large, or high-frequency displacements.
Jaguar put Bilstein mono-tubes on the S-Type. Senior Engineering Specialist, Chassis Development, Mike Cross, says, "Within a given tube envelope, the larger piston gives a better rolling feel," softening an initial displacement, for the characteristic Jaguar ride. The greater diameter, thus more effective, piston allows more flexibility in its tuning.
Engineers at both companies also selected their style of shocks factoring in their greater design experience with the same types on previous vehicles.
For more information
Design software from SDRC: Product Code 4771
Analysis packages by TNO-MADYMO North America: Product Code 4772
Knowledge-based software from KTI: Product Code 4773
________________________________________
By the numbers
Here's how the Jaguar S-Type and Lincoln LS compare to the BMW 5 Series, considered by most driving enthusiasts to be the standard for performance sedans.
Jaguar S-Type Lincoln LS BMW 5 Series
528i 540i
Engine 3.0/ V6 4.0/ V8 3.0/ V6 3.9/ V8 2.8/ inline 6 4.4/ V8
Peak hp/torque (ft-lb) 240/221 281/287 210/205 252/267 193/206 285/324
Transmission 5 spd auto 5 spd auto & manual 5 spd auto only 4 spd auto
5 spd manual 5spd auto
6 spd manual
0-60 mph (sec) 8.0 6.6 8.0 man est
9.3 auto est 7.5 est 7.0 man
7.7 auto 5.8 man
6.2 auto
Top speed (mph), electronically limited 130 (141 w/sport package) N/A 128 155 man
128 auto
Weight (lb)/ distribution front/rear (%) 3,650
51/49 3,770 52/48 3,593 auto 52/48 3,598 man 51/49 3,692 53/47 3,549 auto
50.9/49.1
3,495 man
50.5/49.5 3,803 auto
52.5/47.5
3,748 man 52.1/47.9
Wheelbase/track (in) 114.5/
60.5 front, 60.8 rear 114.5/
60.5 front, 60.2 rear 111.4/
59.5 front, 60.1 rear
Wheel dia. (in)/tire width (mm) 16/225
17/235 w/sport pkg 16/215
17/235 w/sport pkg 15/225 16/225 auto
17/235 man
Turns, lock-to-lock/ turning circle dia (ft) 2.6/37.7 3.0/37.7 3.0/37.1 3.0/37.4
CD 0.32 0.317 0.30 0.31
EPA mileage (mpg) city/hwy 18/26 17/23 18/25 auto 19/25 man 17/23 18/26 auto
20/29 man 18/24 auto
15/23 man
Base price $42,400 $48,000 $31,450
auto
$32,250 man w/sport pkg $35,225 $40,445 auto
$39,470 man $51,670 auto
$54,470 man
 
Quik LS said:
By the numbers
Here's how the Jaguar S-Type and Lincoln LS compare to the BMW 5 Series, considered by most driving enthusiasts to be the standard for performance sedans.
Jaguar S-Type Lincoln LS BMW 5 Series
528i 540i
Engine 3.0/ V6 4.0/ V8 3.0/ V6 3.9/ V8 2.8/ inline 6 4.4/ V8
Peak hp/torque (ft-lb) 240/221 281/287 210/205 252/267 193/206 285/324
Transmission 5 spd auto 5 spd auto & manual 5 spd auto only 4 spd auto
5 spd manual 5spd auto
6 spd manual
0-60 mph (sec) 8.0 6.6 8.0 man est
9.3 auto est 7.5 est 7.0 man
7.7 auto 5.8 man
6.2 auto
Top speed (mph), electronically limited 130 (141 w/sport package) N/A 128 155 man
128 auto
Weight (lb)/ distribution front/rear (%) 3,650
51/49 3,770 52/48 3,593 auto 52/48 3,598 man 51/49 3,692 53/47 3,549 auto
50.9/49.1
3,495 man
50.5/49.5 3,803 auto
52.5/47.5
3,748 man 52.1/47.9
Wheelbase/track (in) 114.5/
60.5 front, 60.8 rear 114.5/
60.5 front, 60.2 rear 111.4/
59.5 front, 60.1 rear
Wheel dia. (in)/tire width (mm) 16/225
17/235 w/sport pkg 16/215
17/235 w/sport pkg 15/225 16/225 auto
17/235 man
Turns, lock-to-lock/ turning circle dia (ft) 2.6/37.7 3.0/37.7 3.0/37.1 3.0/37.4
CD 0.32 0.317 0.30 0.31
EPA mileage (mpg) city/hwy 18/26 17/23 18/25 auto 19/25 man 17/23 18/26 auto
20/29 man 18/24 auto
15/23 man
Base price $42,400 $48,000 $31,450
auto
$32,250 man w/sport pkg $35,225 $40,445 auto
$39,470 man $51,670 auto
$54,470 man

Can anyone get these numbers for the Mark VIII and the LS? Preferably a side by side with the 03+ LS’s and the LSC (or whatever the 290hp one was called) Mark VIII.
 
SoonerLS said:
I'm sure you have a point, but what is it? You claimed that the LS (particularly its engine, chassis, and tranny) is essentially a Jaguar; I refuted that claim. I don't care what the sources of the parts are; if we're going by that, then the LS isn't even close to being a Jag, as none of its parts are built by Jaguar. Even the AJ39 is built in the US.

The LS and S-Type were developed concurrently; the difference in time between the release of the S-Type and LS is so small as to be negligible in terms of development. The S-Type was simply first to market, and there are possible explanations for that which have nothing to do with which car was developed first. Perhaps you've heard about the internal politics of PAG and Lincoln's ill-fated tenure in PAG?

The simple fact is that I almost bought two Mark VIIIs, and I have owned two LSes (and still own the second), so my preference is obvious, but I think the LS is more than capable of standing on its own, without relying on conjecture that's not supported by the facts.

That T-Bird (apparently an '87) bears no resemblance to the Mark VIII. That's the last of the old Fox T-Birds, not the MN-12 that was introduced in '89.


My point was simply that despite where or who designed the car, if the specifications were good enough to be the basis of one of the best selling Jaguar models over 6-7 years of production, then the platform earns the prestige associated with that fact. The Mark VIII "shares" its platform with some POS rebadged Mercury's and Fords. The LS shares its platform with a high-end, high prestige luxury vehicle (S-type). If it's good enough for Jaguar customers, it's certainly good enough for Lincoln customers. Your average Mark VIII customer doesn't sit and decide whether he should buy a Mark VIII or a BMW or Mercedes, it doesn't happen. However I think it is a very real possibility that some customers would be tempted to choose between the S-type and the LS. I know it's at least true in my case. There was a beautiful green S-type on the same lot for not that much more. However I didn't choose it because a Jaguar isn't a college kid's kind of car, but that's beside the point. I think that paticular situation could very possibly occur and if the LS is good enough to compete with Jaguar customers, it can certainly be considered a much higher echelon car than the Mark VIII.

Back to my original argument

this is what you look like in a Mark VIII:

5443715_faf63bddb2.jpg
 
TheRebel said:
Can anyone get these numbers for the Mark VIII and the LS? Preferably a side by side with the 03+ LS’s and the LSC (or whatever the 290hp one was called) Mark VIII.
I got many of those above...
 
postalUT said:
My point was simply that despite where or who designed the car, if the specifications were good enough to be the basis of one of the best selling Jaguar models over 6-7 years of production, then the platform earns the prestige associated with that fact. The Mark VIII "shares" its platform with some POS rebadged Mercury's and Fords. The LS shares its platform with a high-end, high prestige luxury vehicle (S-type). If it's good enough for Jaguar customers, it's certainly good enough for Lincoln customers. Your average Mark VIII customer doesn't sit and decide whether he should buy a Mark VIII or a BMW or Mercedes, it doesn't happen. However I think it is a very real possibility that some customers would be tempted to choose between the S-type and the LS. I know it's at least true in my case. There was a beautiful green S-type on the same lot for not that much more. However I didn't choose it because a Jaguar isn't a college kid's kind of car, but that's beside the point. I think that paticular situation could very possibly occur and if the LS is good enough to compete with Jaguar customers, it can certainly be considered a much higher echelon car than the Mark VIII.

Back to my original argument

this is what you look like in a Mark VIII:

5443715_faf63bddb2.jpg


You say the VIII doesn't compare to the LS in terms of luxury yet at the same time you distinguish between the S-Type and the LS saying the S-Type isn't a college kid kind of car and yet the LS is? Are you saying the LS is sportier? Cheaper? I don't get it.

The LS and S-Type are very similar vehicles with very similar costs IMO.

And yea...this pic is remarkably similar to the one you posted:

vbpgimage.php
 
- Unfortunately...this video puts an end to any "Lincoln vs Cadillac" debates:

http://videos.streetfire.net/toprated/3/e7ccb179-fb54-4d63-9628-985100ffc092.htm

- CTS-V DRIFT:

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/cadillac/0/eaef073a-8de4-462c-9caa-9824000056d6.htm

- ESCALADE THAT WILL PUT ANY LS TO SHAME IN TERMS OF POWER. RUNS A 12.88...

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/cadillac/0/822d59ce-c112-4d5d-b902-9849015d8ce8.htm

- And I definitely couldn't picture my grandma rolling in this 1995 VIII - check out that hood!

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/mark+VIII/0/66a2a556-f8f5-426c-a5c6-5527c9569cae.htm

- And this is what Quik should do with his supercharged LS!!!!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/mark+VIII/0/ec639242-669f-48d5-a65b-669b6036424f.htm
 
Just goes to show ... with enough money you can make anything go fast!

If I spent as much on my LS as that guy did on his Escalade, I'd probably smoke him. The last time I was at the track I watched a POS Civic running in the 10s. :)
 
So this is the car that has called for so much hype? Seriously? Is it possible to look cool in this car?
m8.JPG
The newer models look ok but the older ones are ugly. Perhaps if it isnt known by now i dont care to much about performance, its not a decision maker for me, but i wouldnt drive that car regardless how fast it "could" be. If one was given to me i'd rather sell it for the $3000 its worth than drive one. Shame on any of you for claiming that car is better than an LS. Also, how can any of ya'll let some idiot who registers and posts some crap get too you. I'll be honest, i really dont give a damn about anyone here personally. I'm not here to become friends and get to know someone. I'll share info and experiences but thats about it. I worry about how some people get too involved with this kinda of internet stuff. Thats my opinion on this entire thread.

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Fla02LS said:
So this is the car that has called for so much hype? Seriously? Is it possible to look cool in this car?
View attachment 22294
The newer models look ok but the older ones are ugly. Perhaps if it isnt known by now i dont care to much about performance, its not a decision maker for me, but i wouldnt drive that car regardless how fast it "could" be. If one was given to me i'd rather sell it for the $3000 its worth than drive one. Shame on any of you for claiming that car is better than an LS. Also, how can any of ya'll let some idiot who registers and posts some crap get too you. I'll be honest, i really dont give a damn about anyone here personally. I'm not here to become friends and get to know someone. I'll share info and experiences but thats about it. I worry about how some people get too involved with this kinda of internet stuff. Thats my opinion on this entire thread.

some of the internet people are actually real friends in life, if you havent seen there are chapters where people actually meet up, and talk face to face. another example is cardomain, my car is posted and i ran into some guy who knew me just from the site, now i know him in person. as for the lincoln war, whichever one i have is better, and until i go back in time or until i make enough to buy the new LT the LS is my favorite. you all just lucked out and got a better motor.
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