International Atheists declare church/state principles

And shag - if you manage to actually read a rebuttal that isn't just posting yet another article, as is your want, you might notice that I have started to do just that - rebut that article.

That is the problem!

Instead of first understanding what the article is saying (which you clearly don't), instead of first understanding the argument against gay marriage, you jump right into trying to rebut it.

You can not honestly and reasonably rebut an argument unless you first understand it. That is something that you have never learned.

When you attempt to rebut an argument that you clearly do not understand, you are left with nothing but straw men, deception and lies. That is all you know and that is why you have no credibility.

To ignore the necessity of first understanding an argument is not only dishonest but immature.

Unfortunately, when you are also unable to admit when you are wrong, you are unable to actually learn about that argument to be able to reasonable and honestly rebut it.
 
As you can see, foxpaws likes to cherrypick what government should and should not be involved in. If it's something that might give gays some extra rights - by all means, government should 'stay out of it' - which actually means government should get involved by extending extra rights to gays.

And the government should sue states for enforcing laws already on the books - and government should regulate oil production, and punish states that try to clean up their own shores.

But when it involves extending rights to unborn children - HELL NO, KILL 'EM ALL!

You have to untangle her double-speak in order to discern what she really means by what she says - often when she says something it means the opposite. For example - when she says 'liberal' - she doesn't mean 'classic liberal' - unless she says she does. And when it's convenient for her, she changes the meaning of the word 'conservative' so that she can throw red herrings into the discussion for the sole purpose of waging her war of attrition.

1. Topic comes up
2. Discussion begins
3. Foxpaws shows up and draws false comparison or throws up straw men/red herrings or a bunch of nonsense
4. Conservs call her out for her dishonesty
5. Foxpaws happily plays victim and doggedly continues to defend, deflect, and change the subject
6. Everyone tires of her ad nauseum arguments and leaves the thread
7. Foxpaws claims victory
 
How odd that it took the ultimate in classic liberalism to give us that Bill of Rights. The conservatives were on the side of the Brits Foss... Left to the conservatives we would still be feeding the coffers of the Queen.

Everything I said is correct when tying conservatives to this question - conserve, at all costs, tradition, status quo, the way it was. You might want to review the definition of conservative foss -

You have utterly no clue what you are talking about. Modern conservatism is rooted in classical liberalism. Of course, ignoring distinctions like that between modern conservatism and older forms of conservatism (if you are even aware of them) allows you to deceive and smear modern conservatism.

Also, the unique form of classical liberalism that was applied by the Framers and that gave us the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights had, at a fundamental level, as much in common with conservatism (of the Burkean variety) as it did with orthodox classical liberalism.

Because you are ignorantly painting with such a broad brush, you attempts to mislead are readily transparent to anyone with in even a minor background in political philosophy. :rolleyes:
 
She's just babbling in the hope that something she throws up against the wall will stick. It's another tactic of hers - creating busywork by engaging in diarrhea of the keyboard. She knows she has no chance of winning the argument or even in persuading any of us that her viewpoint is valid - she's just engaging in pure sophistry for the purpose of distraction. It's dishonest in the extreme.
 
I'm a conservative and I do not hold that view. You're simply wrong, fox. And you KNOW that what you're saying is wrong - which makes you, yet again, a liar.

We know you like to redefine terms to suit your red herrings. Nice try.

How odd that classic liberalism in no way resembles the thoughts and beliefs of you and your socialist fellow travelers.

For example, if the Democrats had had their way, the Civil Rights act would never have passed.

Yep - the conservative Democrats of the south, in a block, voted against the Civil Rights Act.

Just as the 'conservatives' of the later part of the 18th century would have been for keeping the states as a colony of Britain, they wanted to conserve the current state of affairs...

Conservative - to hold onto traditional values, which in the 1760s were Britain's values. The conservatives wanted to remain tied to Britain - it was those upstart, radical, liberals that bucked the system, that started a revolution.

As a political 'word' it arose in France - defining those that wanted a return to the monarchy after the revolution, and in Britain, that things should be subjugated to aristocracy. Ah, the good old days.

Once again, conserve - to keep the same... to resist change... to tie oneself to tradition.

You are a conservative foss - I thought you were a more-or-less libertarian, when the mood struck. Which one is it?
 
Yep - the conservative Democrats of the south, in a block, voted against the Civil Rights Act.

You are actively engaged in an attempt to distort what conservatism is and to smear it.

Conservative/liberal distinctions were not present in American politics around the time of the civil war. To attempt to manufacture those distinctions is to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

In fact, if you want to actually look at genuine philosophy (something you have never wanted to focus on unless you could distort it to your own ends) abolition could be said to be a uniquely conservative phenomenon because it was taking the idea this country was founded on, Natural Rights and extending that recognition to all Citizens.

Your simplistic claim that conservatism is somehow against change and for protecting the status quo "at all costs" belies your utter ignorance of what conservatism is.

Edmund Burke realized that change was necessary for a civil society.
 
That is the problem!

Instead of first understanding what the article is saying (which you clearly don't), instead of first understanding the argument against gay marriage, you jump right into trying to rebut it.

You can not honestly and reasonably rebut an argument unless you first understand it. That is something that you have never learned.

When you attempt to rebut an argument that you clearly do not understand, you are left with nothing but straw men, deception and lies. That is all you know and that is why you have no credibility.

To ignore the necessity of first understanding an argument is not only dishonest but immature.

Unfortunately, when you are also unable to admit when you are wrong, you are unable to actually learn about that argument to be able to reasonable and honestly rebut it.

Shag - I do understand the article - how do you think I can tear it apart so easily...

Do you want to give me another part that you think stands up well - go ahead...

Or would you rather discuss the parts that I have already started on - how about the tyranny of the majority over the minority - or how about the incorrectness of the conservative thought when it came to the morality of criminalizing interracial marriages.

Your obeisance to the cause is rather overwhelming shag, but expected.
 
Shag - I do understand the article

Like I said, when you are unable to admit when you are wrong, you are unable to actually learn about an unfamiliar/opposing viewpoint which is necessary to be able to reasonable and honestly rebut it.
 
You are actively engaged in an attempt to distort what conservatism is and to smear it.

Conservative/liberal distinctions were not present in American politics around the time of the civil war. To attempt to manufacture those distinctions is to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

the Civil Rights Act shag - 1965? There very much was a split in the Democratic party along conservative (south) and more liberal (northern) lines. That is what Foss was talking about.

I am not distorting conservatism - it is what it is, resist change, embrace traditional values...

Maybe you need to read a little French and English history shag... and sort of embrace your conservative roots.
 
Like I said, when you are unable to admit when you are wrong, you are unable to actually learn about an unfamiliar/opposing viewpoint which is necessary to be able to reasonable and honestly rebut it.

So, I should admit I am wrong because I understand the article, am beginning to tear it apart, and have actually asked your input on other parts that you feel will hold up well under argument?

I have even asked for your responses to the points I have brought up regarding the article already - rather than overwhelm you with a complete rebuttal, I thought I would go with some of the more obvious points. You haven't even been able to go with the obvious, I can't wait until we get to the subtle points...
 
the Civil Rights Act shag - 1965? There very much was a split in the Democratic party along conservative (south) and more liberal (northern) lines.

I am not distorting conservatism - it is what it is, resist change, embrace traditional values...

Maybe you need to read a little French and English history shag... and sort of embrace your conservative roots.
Tsk tsk, fox...now you don't even know who you're responding to. :bowrofl:

I guess you never took Posting 101. Take a deep breath, sit down for a minute, READ carefully, THINK about your response, and then compose it in a Word doc. Then, think it over some more before hitting submit.

Oh, and YES you are distorting conservatism. And you're resorting to proof by assertion which is a desperate tactic.

Yawn.

You're really boring today. But anything to get the last word, right? :rolleyes:
 
So, I should admit I am wrong because I understand the article, am beginning to tear it apart, and have actually asked your input on other parts that you feel will hold up well under argument?

I have even asked for your responses to the points I have brought up regarding the article already - rather than overwhelm you with a complete rebuttal, I thought I would go with some of the more obvious points. You haven't even been able to go with the obvious, I can't wait until we get to the subtle points...
Is that what you're doing? Awww, how sweet, looking out for Shag's best interests. So, you're confident that he can't handle one of your normally verbose piles of keyboard vomit?

How condescending of you.

Give me a break, Vapo-rub. Here you are trying to spin your way out of this corner - since when do you NOT try to overwhelm somebody with obscenely wordy verbiage? I call BS on this one - if you're too busy or lazy to respond thoroughly, then don't. But don't make lousy, lame excuses.
 
the Civil Rights Act shag - 1965? There very much was a split in the Democratic party along conservative (south) and more liberal (northern) lines.

Again, you are grossly misrepresenting conservatism by simplistically making a false distinction of the Democrat party being split along "conservative and liberal" lines over the 1965 CRA. That has been a leftist talking point for years now but it is based on mere assertion along with cherry picked circumstantial evidence; half truths

The most effective lies are the ones with the most the most truths in them.

As I said, you have no interest in the truth; only in propagandizing and self expression.

I am not distorting conservatism - it is what it is, resist change, embrace traditional values...

Maybe you need to read a little French and English history shag... and sort of embrace your conservative roots.

You should take your own advice as you are grossly misrepresenting conservatism, not that you care or are even aware of that fact.
 
Foss - this is what you said...

For example, if the Democrats had had their way, the Civil Rights act would never have passed.​

Obviously referring to the Civil Rights Act that passed...

I agreed that is was Democrats, known as 'conservative democrats' in the south that voted against the act.

Shag than somehow responded using something about the civil war and there not being 'conservatives' and 'liberals' during that time frame.

I just wanted to make clear I was responding to your post that referred to the passed Civil Rights Act.

Oh, and shag might also want to read a little about conservatives and liberals around the time of the civil war.
 
So, I should admit I am wrong because I understand the article

Again, when you are unable to admit when you are wrong, you are unable to actually learn about an unfamiliar/opposing viewpoint which is necessary to be able to reasonable and honestly rebut it.

I have even asked for your responses to the points I have brought up regarding the article already

You asked leading questions aimed at framing the debate favorable to your position. That is not discussing things in good faith and it belies a lack of sincerity in attempting to understand any opposing views. Given your history on this forum, there is every reason to think that you have no interest in actually understanding, only in rebutting.
 
Clarification

KS - the contract part is where the 'business' part lies - and where government does have a part. Mostly it is at the end, or when the contract is dissolved that the government comes into play. Division of assets, rights of custody those sort of messy battles. And during the contract, allowing partners power of attorney, the right to pensions, to inherited assets, things like that.

The rest - yes, marriage is a vital part of many American's lives - it is intertwined with church and family. The government should be kept far away from that part, as it should with almost all family/church matters.

Actually, that right to contract includes the implicit right to NOT contract. 'Two hearts beating as one' should not need any 'contract'. It's only the intrusion of the government, trying to hold power over every aspect of our lives, that has created this contractual atmosphere. As I said, "Government get out of my life."

KS
 
Foss - this is what you said...

For example, if the Democrats had had their way, the Civil Rights act would never have passed.​

Obviously referring to the Civil Rights Act that passed...

And would not have passed but for conservative republican support. As you said, the Democrats were divided. LBJ had to court conservative/republican votes on this. Interesting that you conveniently ignored that fact. :rolleyes:

I agreed that is was Democrats, known as 'conservative democrats' in the south that voted against the act.

They were known as Dixiecrats. The conservative label came later by leftists looking to opportunistically label conservatives as racist. Much like you have attempted to do with tea partiers on numerous occasions on this forum.
 
The fact is that in both the House and the Senate, special tactics had to be utilized to get the bill around the committee chairs who were bottling up the bill, both Democrats. Then the bill had to get around a Democrat filibuster.

The fact is that the split in the Democrat party was more like 60-40 and the Republican split was 80-20.

Nice try fox.

You should try reading up on history instead of urging Shag to read up on it. He has a better grasp on it than you do.
 
Again, you are grossly misrepresenting conservatism by simplistically making a false distinction of the Democrat party being split along "conservative and liberal" lines over the 1965 CRA. That has been a leftist talking point for years now but it is based on mere assertion along with cherry picked circumstantial evidence; half truths

Than how about posting the results of the vote shag - that would speak for itself wouldn't it?

By Party and Region

The Original House Version:

* Southern Democrats: 7-87 (seven percent-93 percent)
* Southern Republicans: 0-10 (zero percent-100 percent)
* Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94 percent-six percent)
* Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85 percent-15 percent)

The Senate Version:

* Southern Democrats: 1-20 (five percent-95 percent)
* Southern Republicans: 0-1 (zero percent-100 percent)
* Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98 percent-2 percent)
* Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84 percent-16 percent)

As you can see It was a north/south issue and not a Dem/Rep issue...

Heck no southern Republicans voted for it at all - zero... if you want to go down those lines shag. The dems had a tiny, tiny percentage that voted for it in the south - republicans, absolutely none. And if you go by the north - the democrats outvoted the republicans for it -

There very much was a split in the party along north/south lines shag - why would you try to say differently?

Well - back to the subject at hand - how about those interracial marriage laws shag - sort of ties in with the civil rights act...
 
Than how about posting the results of the vote shag - that would speak for itself wouldn't it?

No, it would not speak for itself.

First; the numbers, as you present them are deceptive and misleading. They downplay and ignore very relevant information like; the party majorities in both houses, the party majorities by region, etc. Statistics don't lie. Liars use statistics.

Second; it ignores the reasons that the different members from different parties and/or different viewpoints may have opposed the bill. There were plenty of reasons a person might have opposed the bill that had nothing to do with race. The rationale for voting for or against the 1965 CRA is at the heart of determining any racism along ideological lines and your numbers give no indication of that whatsoever. To equate opposition to the 1965 CRA with racism (as you are implicitly doing) is to make a false generalization; to mislead.

Third; "Democrat" is not synonymous with "liberal" and "Republican" is not synonymous with "conservative". Your entire argument hinges on ignoring that fact.

By your logic, you would HAVE to conclude that liberals are inherently racist. As fossten pointed out...
The fact is that in both the House and the Senate, special tactics had to be utilized to get the bill around the committee chairs who were bottling up the bill, both Democrats. Then the bill had to get around a Democrat filibuster.
That Democrat filibuster? Democrat and former Exalted Cyclops of the KKK Senator Robert Byrd. Many Democrats/liberals were recently singing the late Senator's praises; including Bill Clinton and Barak Obama.

Byrd has, throughout his legislative career consistently supported liberal positions as well.

By your own logic, you would HAVE to conclude that liberals are racists.

However, that would be just as absurd as claiming that conservatives are racist.

There very much was a split in the party along north/south lines shag - why would you try to say differently?

That is NOT what I said and you know it.

I was pointing out that the Democrat party was not divided along conservative/liberal lines. Your argument assumes the north/south dichotomy is synonymous with the liberal/conservative dichotomy. That is nothing but a subtle attempt to deceptively inject a false premise into the discussion that you cannot honestly and directly get agreement on. Where is your good faith in discussing these things?

All you have to offer is a misrepresentation of my argument, tortured logic, rhetorical sleight-of-hand and cherry picked circumstantial evidence. Unfortunately, that is all you ever offer to support these "racist" claims by the left against their opponents.

Is attempting to falsely brand conservatives as "racist" all you and the left have anymore? While it has been a false narrative the left has been using for decades as a rhetorical bludgeon to cowardly short circuit any honest debate, it is rooted in lies, half truths and deceptions. As has been demonstrated in this thread.

That talking point has become a joke because of the tortured "logic" used to support that lie. If that is all you have, you have nothing.

And considering your desperation in promoting that narrative on this forum, you clearly have nothing else.

Stay classy! ;)
 
By the way fox, there is no such thing as a conservative democrat. You're just trying to redefine terms to suit your argument - which is that conservatives are racist.

You know this argument doesn't hold water, yet you cling to it bitterly.

You have no integrity.
 
You are a conservative foss - I thought you were a more-or-less libertarian, when the mood struck. Which one is it?
:lol: You really are desperate, aren't you? You have no idea what you're talking about, so you try to distract with this irrelevant question?

Let me answer your question with a question, Vapo-rub:

Which of my views, if any, are not conservative?
 
This is really a ‘conservative’ question. Never change. Tradition is always right. People and societies don’t change course, don’t ever alter. It is the ultimate in conservatism. Stick your head in the sand and hope that ‘tradition’ will rule the day.

That may just be the most blatantly obvious straw man you have ever posted on this forum.

The fact that you can't admit to it shows why there is no chance of honest discussion with you...
 
No, it would not speak for itself.

First; the numbers, as you present them are deceptive and misleading. They downplay and ignore very relevant information like; the party majorities in both houses, the party majorities by region, etc. Statistics don't lie. Liars use statistics.

Shag - what are you doing?

That is the actual vote - it clearly shows who has the majority in both houses, it is broken down by south/north, as well as who has the majority in those regions.

The actual vote doesn't lie shag - and my discussion had nothing to do with racism or anything else, you are the one that is skewing the discussion in that direction - not me

This was just just in answer to the continuing saga of the Democrats in the south voting against the CRA - the numbers clearly show that, I don't even try to argue that - I know the numbers don't lie - however, I can also claim that there wasn't one Republican that voted for the CRA from the south. We talked about this before. Those democrats are commonly referred to as 'conservative democrats' or as you noted 'dixiecrats'.

I know democrat doesn't hinge on the word liberal nor does republican hinge on conservative -

But, you always refer to wiki when you want definitions - where should we go for your 'correct' definition of conservative if not your usual source of choice.

Is attempting to falsely brand conservatives as "racist" all you and the left have anymore? While it has been a false narrative the left has been using for decades as a rhetorical bludgeon to cowardly short circuit any honest debate, it is rooted in lies, half truths and deceptions. As has been demonstrated in this thread.

Where did I do that - show me that post, show me that quote. I would really like to see that - or I would like you to retract that statement. All I said is that it was the conservative Democrats in the south that voted against it... It is what they were called - as I pointed out with a reference from Conservapedia above - and you can google it - it was/is a very common term for that group of democrats at that point in time.

So - now that you have carried this discussion into the realm of smearing me with things I haven't even said - how about going back to marriage -

Don't you think that there are correlations to be drawn between the miscegenation laws of the first half of the 1900s and the gay marriage discussion?

Rather than continuing to misdirect in hopes of burying this, how about looking at the article you posted (post #47), and lets see where it has weaknesses and also see if there are any strengths in the article.
 

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