International Atheists declare church/state principles

No so much. The gay community is expecting nothing less then a legal redefinition of marriage to accommodate them. That is more then simply an "exception", it is an attempt to change the rule and engage in social engineering by forcing certain moral views on society that, at every turn, American society rejects.

How exactly are they asking to redefine marriage? The only change they want it to be is the union between two people to mean two people, not just a man and a woman. This is not forcing a certain moral view on society. Society is forcing their moral views on the gay community by saying gays cannot wed, or that there is something wrong with them wanting to be together in a gay relationship. They are not forcing you to have a gay marriage, or forcing anyone to be gay, they are just asking that you let them mind their own business and do their own thing. In the end, your argument for being marriage is boiling down to your values, wherein you apparently believe that homosexual relationships are wrong.

Besides, you are skipping my point. You said that Gay marriage was anti-marriage because they cannot procreate, which according to you is the primary purpose of marriage.

Marriage has traditionally been understood to serve a specific purpose; the procreation and raising of children.

By that understanding, "gay marriage" is an oxymoron because it takes something that is not a marriage and says it is a marriage.

So how are childless couples NOT in a false marriage by your definition of marriage? Should we require childless couples to have children if they want to keep the social, tax, contractual, and insurance benefits of couples who are using their marriage correctly and raising children?

To tell people who they can and cannot marry is social control. In my opinion telling people who they can and cannot have a relationship with is a MUCH larger invasion of privacy than saying shop owners cannot discriminate for instance. Marriage in today's society carries a lot of tax and insurance benefits, along with many other benefits of the like. You are basically saying a certain group of people cannot be entitled to those benefits because they are different from you.
 
But, looking at it in another light, one may consider religion a weakness or a crutch, so in that context reliance on religion may be considered a negative thing. Would you consider being not dead a negative thing? Not having a disease implies you are lacking a disease, but this is not generally considered a negative statement.

It could also be at least as credibly said that Atheism is the ultimate expression of narcissism and self-aggrandizement because, in many ways it elevates man to the level of God. It is no coincidence that most Atheists take a social viewpoint that assumes man's capabilities in certain areas are on the level of God.
 
How exactly are they asking to redefine marriage? The only change they want it to be is the union between two people to mean two people, not just a man and a woman.

You just answered your own question.

You said that Gay marriage was anti-marriage because they cannot procreate, which according to you is the primary purpose of marriage.

no, that is only part of what I said. The other part is just as significant and the implications from that part are very important.

So how are childless couples NOT in a false marriage by your definition of marriage?

Their union is still a reflection of the institution of marriage. You need to understand what and why the institution of marriage is what it is. However, it would take getting into theory and you seem to eschew theory.

To tell people who they can and cannot marry is social control. In my opinion telling people who they can and cannot have a relationship with is a MUCH larger invasion of privacy than saying shop owners cannot discriminate for instance. Marriage in today's society carries a lot of tax and insurance benefits, along with many other benefits of the like. You are basically saying a certain group of people cannot be entitled to those benefits because they are different from you.

And here is why it is hard to have any honest discussion on this issue. Self-righteous indignation and posturing get in the way.
 
It could also be at least as credibly said that Atheism is the ultimate expression of narcissism and self-aggrandizement because, in many ways it elevates man to the level of God. It is no coincidence that most Atheists take a social viewpoint that assumes man's capabilities in certain areas are on the level of God.

that too is true, depending on your point of view. I just felt it is being simplistic to label it as a negative thought process just because it means "not believing in god" By that rational, a polytheistic approach would be best, because monotheistic religions like christianity only have one god, polytheism has much more than one, and as the rational presented states, more is better, so if one is better than 0, isn't several better than one? Not really important or anything like that. Just like I said, too simplistic.
 
You just answered your own question.

But this wouldn't change what marriage is for you. You are forcing your morality on others.

no, that is only part of what I said. The other part is just as significant and the implications from that part are very important.

And a gay marriage meets every other criteria for what a marriage is, aside from procreation

Their union is still a reflection of the institution of marriage. You need to understand what and why the institution of marriage is what it is. However, it would take getting into theory and you seem to eschew theory.

But, a gay marriage accomplishes the same thing as a childless heterosexual marriage. In what way does it differ?

And here is why it is hard to have any honest discussion on this issue. Self-righteous indignation and posturing get in the way.

Oh? You are always so against social control though. Very well then, how is this not forcing your beliefs and morality onto others?
 
that too is true, depending on your point of view.

No, it is a overly broad generalization. Psychological speculation like that is absurd; a waste of time. That was the point I was trying to make. There may be some truth on an individual, case by case basis. But to claim ALL Theists (or even most Theists) are using religion as a crutch is absurd.
 
But this wouldn't change what marriage is for you. You are forcing your morality on others.

No, it is quite the opposite. The gay community (or at least the political wing of it) is looking to impose their morals on society.

And a gay marriage meets every other criteria for what a marriage is, aside from procreation

Not really.

Oh? You are always so against social control though. Very well then, how is this not forcing your beliefs and morality onto others?

There are profound conceptual differences here that need to be discussed and resolved. However, you have shown a refusal to confront those basic differences in the past. Therefore, any further discussion will on this is only going to be a waste of time; yelling past each other.
 
No, it is quite the opposite. The gay community (or at least the political wing of it) is looking to impose their morals on society.

How so?

Not really.

Once again, how so? You have yet to give any example or reasoning for how gay marriage is different from any other marriage aside from the fact that it implies the inability to procreate.

There are profound conceptual differences here that need to be discussed and resolved. However, you have shown a refusal to confront those basic differences in the past. Therefore, any further discussion will on this is only going to be a waste of time; yelling past each other.

Ad hominem argumentation. Why not answer the question instead? I have shown no refusal to confront anything on this forum, I just do not share your beliefs, therefore every time you back yourself into a corner like this, or I refuse to share your interpretation on something, you rely on stating the very thing you have posted above.
 
No, it is a overly broad generalization. Psychological speculation like that is absurd; a waste of time. That was the point I was trying to make. There may be some truth on an individual, case by case basis. But to claim ALL Theists (or even most Theists) are using religion as a crutch is absurd.

As I said, I was only illustrating one point of view. I never said that all theists or even most were using religion as a crutch. To state that all atheists are just narcissists who believe they are better than god or religious people is also an overly broad generalization. While it may work with some individuals.... yeah, you get the idea. This is why I was saying it is too simplistic to call atheism a negative view.
 
No, it is quite the opposite. The gay community (or at least the political wing of it) is looking to impose their morals on society.

that sounds like the "i don't hate gays, god hates gays" arguement.
your phuckin phunny.
 
that sounds like the "i don't hate gays, god hates gays" arguement.
your phuckin phunny.

No, it sounds like the "I don't care what gay people do or think but political gay people are insistent upon telling me how I should think." Accepting homosexuals as individuals has nothing to do with redefining marriage to include relationships outside of tradition.
 
of course you mean YOUR definition and YOUR tradition.
 
another helping of basic English

...why I was saying it is too simplistic to call atheism a negative view.

Why don't we simply agree that the point of view that says, "There is no god"---(a-theism), shall henceforth be known as 'ralph-ism'. That'll remove the prefix that universally denotes the negativity.

No amount of denial will remove that inescapable definition otherwise.

I'll be willing to go along with ralph-ism as the new label, and I'd suppose others here will also signal acceptance. It'll be a way out of the corner you've otherwise painted yourself into.

KS
 
No, it sounds like the "I don't care what gay people do or think but political gay people are insistent upon telling me how I should think." Accepting homosexuals as individuals has nothing to do with redefining marriage to include relationships outside of tradition.

But, they are just asking to have the same rights as a heterosexual couple. I have asked before, and I will ask again. How are they asking you to change the way YOU think or forcing their morals on YOU? The only thing I can see them asking is that you let them enjoy the same thing you do. They aren't forcing you into homosexual relationships. They aren't forcing children into them (one could argue, that is the domain of the catholic church).

Also, which tradition are you including? The rather narrow tradition of the christian church? Marriage today is not much more than a tax, contract, and insurance benefit, since these are pretty much all benefits that can be traced to government, then why are we including only narrow religious definition? I am going to ask you the questions that Shag is refusing to answer.

In what ways does a homosexual couple differ from a heterosexual couple aside from the ability to procreate?

In what ways does a homosexual union differ from a heterosexual union aside from the fact that under a heterosexual union, assuming both parties are fertile, they can procreate?

How is a homosexual couple different from a childless heterosexual couple in such a way that we should not recognize them as a married couple?

Why don't we simply agree that the point of view that says, "There is no god"---(a-theism), shall henceforth be known as 'ralph-ism'. That'll remove the prefix that universally denotes the negativity.

No amount of denial will remove that inescapable definition otherwise.

I'll be willing to go along with ralph-ism as the new label, and I'd suppose others here will also signal acceptance. It'll be a way out of the corner you've otherwise painted yourself into.

KS

Like I said before, touchy. If you don't want to argue a belief on its merits, and instead want to argue a belief on its name, then don't bother. Your argument hinges on calling atheism a negative view just because of a prefix to the word. This would be like calling you gay by arguing your name sounds gay.

Corner I have painted myself into? Very well, in your small minded world, I cannot escape the etymology of a word, but, since we are discussing beliefs, and not just a word, your argument is invalid.
 
But, they are just asking to have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.

No they are not. They have just as much right to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else. They are demanding for a redefinition of marriage and an imposition of their own morals on society.
 
No they are not. They have just as much right to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else. They are demanding for a redefinition of marriage and an imposition of their own morals on society.

You are imposing your morals on them by saying they cannot marry someone of the same sex. You are trying to impose your morality on them by not allowing them the same tax, contractual, and insurance privileges as you have. Why are they not allowed to pursue happiness?

Tell me how they are imposing their morals on society by marrying someone of the same sex. Is someone having a same sex marriage going to change your heterosexual marriage?

Also, tell me how they are not asking for the same rights as a heterosexual couple. Your argument is doing nothing more than boiling down to you saying they do not have the right to be in a homosexual relationship.
 
No they are not. They have just as much right to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else. They are demanding for a redefinition of marriage and an imposition of their own morals on society.

you mean as opposed to YOUR morals and definition and YOUR society.
you speak for the rest of the world?
that's a pretty higfh plateau you put yourself on.
 
...and instead want to argue a belief on its name, then don't bother. Your argument hinges on calling atheism a negative view just because of a prefix to the word. This would be like calling you gay by arguing your name sounds gay.

Corner I have painted myself into? Very well, in your small minded world, I cannot escape the etymology of a word, but, since we are discussing beliefs, and not just a word, your argument is invalid.


I certainly didn't choose your label. Since you espouse it, you must live with it. Or call it 'ralph-ism'. If it doesn't fit, you're free to call yourself most anything that doesn't have an already-established meaning. The label chosen is where it all begins.

Just as 'marriage' is, by definition, between a man and a woman. You are free to speak of a 'domestic partnership' and most would not demur. But society has established the definition and you, and other militants, are not free to make a change. All the rest of us object.

KS
 
Just as 'marriage' is, by definition, between a man and a woman.

no. it is commonly ASSUMED to be between man and woman.
but that is not the definitive definition.
it is just the one those opposed stand by.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&r...e&sa=X&ei=xHIxTKGICcqUnQeDrqG1Aw&ved=0CBQQkAE



here's one.
the state of being a married couple voluntarily joined for life (or until divorce); "a long and happy marriage"; "God bless this union"

two people who are married to each other; "his second marriage was happier than the first"; "a married couple without love"

the act of marrying; the nuptial ceremony; "their marriage was conducted in the chapel"


a close and intimate union; "the marriage of music and dance"; "a marriage of ideas"
it is not limited by your narrow definition.
 
no. it is commonly ASSUMED to be between man and woman.
but that is not the definitive definition.
it is just the one those opposed stand by.

So, you cherry pick your own definition and then claim that it is true unless and until proven otherwise? That seems pretty self-serving.

Why not look to history, to how the idea of marriage developed over generations, to what societies generally understood marriage to mean and not to mean. That would give a much more objective and accurate understanding of marriage.

When you simply look to a dictionary to understand abstract concepts like marriage, you do yourself a disservice because dictionaries have to account for any and all possible understandings of the term. They only create more confusion. However they do allow for subjectivity when used in that manner.
 
Gay Rights vs. Democracy
Dinesh D'Souza

It is the essence of democracy that people should be able to decide the moral rules that govern the nature of a community. If people don't have that power, then they are living under an autocracy.

True, this majority rule is not unlimited. It is limited by what the government has the power to do. Consequently the majority cannot, in general, vote to seize the homes and accumulated savings of rich people. Leaving aside exceptional cases, government cannot mandate how parents how should raise their children. These kinds of power lie outside the scope of government in a free society.

Majority rule is also circumscribed by individual rights. But these are the rights clearly specified in the Constitution. A majority of citizens cannot prevent an individual from voting because voting is a basic right, as is the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and so on. The state is constitutionally prohibited from undermining these enumerated rights.

Now the high court of California has made gay marriage into a right that is immune from restriction by the majority of citizens in the state. We already know what California citizens think about gay marriage: they oppose it. A referendum outlawing gay marriage was passed with the support of the state's voters. More than 60 percent of voters cast their ballots against gay marriage.

How, then, can a court invalidate the referendum and over-rule the will of the people? Basically through a kind of legal fraud. The court has to pretend that there is a right to gay marriage even though it is nowhere evident in the state constitution. Read the constitution, hold it up to the light, squeeze lemon juice on it--you won't see a right to gay marriage in there. It is simply not an enumerated right, nor is it a right that can be clearly derived from other enumerated rights.

In issuing its ruling the California court appealed to the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The basic logic is that gays have a right to be treated like everyone else. But just like everyone else, gays do have the right to marry. They have the right to marry adult members of the opposite sex! What gay activists want is something else: the right to marry members of the same sex. This is not a right currently enjoyed by anyone. What these gay activists seek is not equal treatment but rather to change the definition of marriage.

But states have a legitimate right to define marriage. State legislatures, drawing on tradition and appealing to the values of their constituents, have defined marriage in a very particular way. Marriage requires a) two people who are b) of legal age and c) not closely related to each other who are d) one male and one female. Note that this definition excludes people who want to marry children, or guys who want to marry their sisters, or Muslims who want to take four wives, or that strange guy who wants to marry his dog.

Now gay activists, with the acquiescence of the California high court, want to remove one of the criteria of marriage while keeping all the rest. Yet if it’s discriminatory to gays to require that marriage be between a man and a woman, why isn’t it discriminatory to Mormons and Muslims to require that it remain between two people? Isn’t incestuous marriage also between “consenting adults” who have a right to equal protection of the laws? And why doesn’t the Fourteenth Amendment protect the fellow who wants to walk down the aisle with his poodle on the grounds that “I love my dog and my dog loves me”?

The point is not that gay marriage is indistinguishable from child marriage or polygamy. The point is that any definition, and marriage is no exception, includes some people and excludes others. Consequently it’s unreasonable to say that gays have a constitutional right to over-ride the definition but other groups do not. The court’s real justification seems to have little to do with constitutional reasoning and everything to do with an assertion of political power.

Political power has its place, and that place is in the legislative and executive domain. So in the California high court decision, we see liberal jurisprudence subverting the legislature and the will of the people in order to achieve its ideological agenda. This is not about whether you think gays should be allowed to marry. If you think they should, go ahead and vote for candidates who support gay marriage. But you should still oppose the manufacture of bogus rights in order to reach a result that democracy would not by itself allow.

Attempting to insulate themselves from the political fallout, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama said very little about California’s legalization of gay marriage, muttering only that they have long opposed the idea. The real question, however, is what they would do to express this opposition. What would a President Obama do, for instance, to protect traditional marriage? Here the answer appears to be: nothing!

In the past Democrats have always appreciated courts doing their dirty work when it comes to issues like abortion, pornography, prostitution and gay rights. This way Democrats can advance their permissive agenda without having to take political responsibility for voting against the values of a majority of voters. It’s time to make the Democrats pay for this in the November election.

I know that there are gays who desperately want gay marriage, and in a way I'm happy for them. But at the same time I'm sad for constitutional democracy, which suffered a grievous blow at the hands of the California high court.
 
time for demotiv man!!!!

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MEMO TO MSM: Rush & Elton John Agree on Same-Sex Marriage
by Steven Crowder

“What is wrong with Proposition 8 is that they went for marriage. Marriage is going to put a lot of people off, the word marriage… I don’t want to be married. I’m very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership… You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships.”
– Elton John

Ain’t that a kick in the pants? As it would seem, Elton John and Rush Limbaugh share the exact same opinion in regards to gay marriage. Coincidentally, so do a majority of Americans. So does this mean that everyday Americans, politicians (both Republican and Democrat), Rush Limbaugh and –gulp– Elton John all hate… the gays?

At least that’s how mainstream media would try and spin it. Most leftists in the press have simply tried to bury those less than “typically gay” quotes. Why? Well, when Elton John speaks the truth, it disrupts the sensationalized narrative that the media and Hollywood have been setting for years; If you don’t support gay marriage, you must secretly despise gay people.

It’s Hate Vs. Gay. Period.

Clearly there are some people even in the gay community tired of the blatant pandering and simple-mindedness. Elton John most likely understands that 57% (those who support same-sex civil unions) of Americans don’t revile his tiny-dancing self. Sure they may recommend some serious orthodonture, but that really only comes from a place of love. The fact is that Americans continue to purchase his albums and support him as an artist, yet still uphold a traditional view of marriage.

See how that works?

Now, the Rocket Man’s opinion could be based on a multitude of reasons, be it cultural, political or ethical. Either way, it shouldn’t matter. People should be entitled to express their personal viewpoint without being called a “whore,” as Mike Musto so eloquently put it last night on Olbermann.

Let’s just boil down the Rush Limbaugh/Elton John controversy for a second:

Rush Limbaugh: ANTI gay marriage and PRO civil union.

Elton John: ANTI gay marriage and PRO civil union.

Here we have two incredibly different people with two wildly different worldviews actually agreeing on something! How can that be construed as anything other than a thing of beauty? Where’s the “We Are the World” choir?

The truth is that the gossip-hounds in Tinseltown and the cackling hags at “The View” don’t want civility. They want catty gossip and sensational headlines that provide them with an opportunity to hop on the bully pulpit. When it comes to the liberal agenda, it’s more important to pigeonhole people than it is to speak the truth.

Poor Elton… Why couldn’t he just learn his role? He shouldn’t be reaching across the aisle, making friends with those of a different stripe or articulating his personal worldviews. He’s just our gay little song-monkey. At the end of the day, Elton, isn’t that enough?

Apart from that, wouldn’t you rather perform at Sean Penn’s wedding? I hear he’s got a few left in him.
 

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