International Atheists declare church/state principles

I'll gladly concede the point IF you can show where I a) specifically stated or b) implied through context that the Democrats who voted against the CRA were conservative.

Hint: Go read the whole thread if you're going to try and keep up - but then again, reading context isn't your strong suit, is it. I don't have the time to bring you up to speed.

Ok I reread your posts and you never said conservative democrats voted against CRA although foxy said you did.
I never said you said it was conservative democrats and thought foxy was adding her piece to that but I see here


Originally Posted by foxpaws
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Where is this bunk coming from - I never even talked about any of this - I only agreed with fossten that it was the southern Democrats that voted against CRA - once again, commonly referred to as conservative southern Dems. (those links are to sites regarding the history of the Civil Rights Act, and the actions by the conservative southern democrats.)


where she says first it was southern democrats whom she then specifies down to conservative southern democrats.
I'm not sure you even agreed it was southern democrats sans conservative ones although she is implying at least that then upping it.

This is a bit of a tempest in a teapot (no pun intended :D)

But I suppose you enjoy spotting and taking umbrage at this kind of stuff.
 
The "status quo" is not a tradition or value of any sort. My question is asking for specifics and you are replying with more vague unclear answers. If the only answer is generalizations then there is not answer.

That is idiotic logic. Tell me how the status quo is not the same thing as tradition. Do you even know what status quo and tradition mean? Quit acting stupid. They were trying to prevent a change.

Fine though, they wanted to preserve the discriminatory practices that the states had constructed to prevent black voters from voting.
 
That is idiotic logic. Tell me how the status quo is not the same thing as tradition. Do you even know what status quo and tradition mean? Quit acting stupid. They were trying to prevent a change.

how about instead of being insufferable and defensive in your self-defeating attempt to show how smart you are, you actually approach this forum civilly and objectively. Maybe even look to understand opposing views instead of just rebutting them; that would say much more about your smarts then any position you can articulate or rebut. As it stands, you demonstrate a lack of good faith and an interest in self-expression over truth and honest, productive discussion. The harder you try to look intelligent, the more you fail to do so.

Besides, My question was not directed toward you, it was directed toward Foxy.
 
how about instead of being insufferable and defensive in your self-defeating attempt to show how smart you are, you actually approach this forum civilly and objectively. Maybe even look to understand opposing views instead of just rebutting them; that would say much more about your smarts then any position you can articulate or rebut. As it stands, you demonstrate a lack of good faith and an interest in self-expression over truth and honest, productive discussion. The harder you try to look intelligent, the more you fail to do so.

Besides, My question was not directed toward you, it was directed toward Foxy.

So, now you are going to say I cannot answer your idiotic rhetorical questions?

You were trying to be obstructive, making self-serving arguments, and trying to nit-pick as usual so that you could drag the argument as FAR away from the point as possible. When I gave you a sarcastic answer to what appeared to be a sarcastic question, you rebutted it with an idiotic statement. If you do not like that, quit posting that kind of idiotic rhetoric you already know the answer to.

Besides, if you ever took the time to make an attempt to understand opposing views, instead of just trying to argue that they are wrong just because they are different from your own, that would say a lot more about your "smarts" than these idiotic posts you sprinkle all about to misdirect discussion and try and shift the focus off the real issues, and on to whatever is most comfortable to you.

And please, quit with the ironic posts.
 
So, now you are going to say I cannot answer your idiotic rhetorical questions?

I am saying that if you want to have a civil conversation, grow up. Stop calling arguments you disagree with "idiotic" or "stupid", familiarize yourself with the viewpoint in the thread that is clearly unfamiliar to you (and treat that viewpoint with respect) and then respectfully offer a rebuttal after you fully understand it. Also, be prepared to agree to disagree in a civil manner.

If you can't do that, if you have no interest in a civil conversation, then I have no interest in wasting time with you. To do so would be to allow you to drag down any discussion for your own self-aggrandizement.
 
I am saying that if you want to have a civil conversation, grow up. Stop calling arguments you disagree with "idiotic" or "stupid", familiarize yourself with the viewpoint in the thread that is clearly unfamiliar to you (and treat that viewpoint with respect) and then respectfully offer a rebuttal after you fully understand it. Also, be prepared to agree to disagree in a civil manner.

If you can't do that, if you have no interest in a civil conversation, then I have no interest in wasting time with you. To do so would be to allow you to drag down any discussion for your own self-aggrandizement.

The logic you used to rebut my status quo statement was idiotic. There are no two ways about it. If you wished to debate whether conservatives were attempting to maintain status quo in the south, that would be one thing, but you were trying to say the status quo was not equivalent to traditions in some bizarre attempt to salvage or redirect the discussion away from the corner you found yourself in. You will note however, I did not call your original question idiotic, or your position. I only called your attempt at blocking discussion with rhetoric idiotic.

If you cannot do anything but throw out these slanderous libels, then please stop posting. I am fully aware of the viewpoints being expressed in this thread. Also, once again, I gotta ask you to quit making such ironic posts.
 
The logic you used to rebut my status quo statement was idiotic.

How? I was asking for specifics and you gave generalities. Here is what I originally said:
If these Democrats who voted against the 1965 CRA were "conservative", what traditions, values, etc. were they looking to conserve?​
You were assuming tradition in a broad sense and I wasn't. If I had meant tradition in a broad sense, the word wouldn't have been plural.

You clearly misunderstood my question. Your mistakes are not my fault.
 
How? I was asking for specifics and you gave generalities. Here is what I originally said:
If these Democrats who voted against the 1965 CRA were "conservative", what traditions, values, etc. were they looking to conserve?​
You were assuming tradition in a broad sense and I wasn't. If I had meant tradition in a broad sense, the word wouldn't have been plural.

You clearly misunderstood my question. Your mistakes are not my fault.

But you already knew the answer. You have heard the saying, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. If you asked an intelligent, directed, relevant question, then you would have gotten a more thoughtful answer.
 
But you already knew the answer. You have heard the saying, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. If you asked an intelligent, directed, relevant question, then you would have gotten a more thoughtful answer.
That's doubtful. :lol:
 
Why didn't you cite the percentage of southern Democrats to southern Republicans? How come you only cited the percentages/ratios that you cited?

What can logically be drawn from the numbers anyhow? What purpose is there to citing the?

Shag – it was a direct cut and past from the New World Encyclopedia -
If you want to show other percentages it is easy – go to your elementary school math teacher – he can show you how.

I posted them because foss said that it was Democrats that voted against the Civil Rights Act – I agreed with him and pointed out it was conservative (and yes, Foss never said those Democrats were conservative, I was adding that as a point of reference - because that is what they were/are called, by everyone) southern democrats that were the big block that voted against it. He made it appear as though it was all Democrats – when in fact, when you get out of the south – 94% of the Democrats voted for it. It was a very regional issue, and that set of numbers clearly portray that fact.

You are equivocating. Switching between a general definition of conservative and an ideological/philosophical definition of conservative. Your argument hinges of blurring those lines. Otherwise, you would have noted that distiction.

Philosophical conservatism is NOT simply "preserving the status quo". To claim that is to set up a blatant straw man. To now equivocate is simply a way to avoid confronting that fact.

Shag – it is what those Democrats were called – right or wrong – it doesn’t matter – it was their name. Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican – by today’s standards – not even close – but suddenly you are going to revise history and call him a Democrat? Just as those Democrats in the south were called, and continue to be called “conservative southern democrats”. Once again – I know it hurts your tiny conservative sensibilities – but get over it. The Dems have had to live with the fact the KKK supported and was supported by the Dems – it is our history – it is our past – it is what it is.

And why were they called conservative – well, because they were big on state’s rights (similar to today’s conservative movement), big on smaller federal government (ditto), big on less federal regulation in private business (ditto), big on the 2nd (ditto), and big on conserving their right to govern themselves on a local and state level without federal interference (ditto). They also were called conservative because they wished to conserve their status quo, their way of life. It was a large combination of things shag. But, if you look at a lot of the core values (beyond the civil rights thing) of the conservative southern democrats - less government, stronger states, less regulation, you can start to see why they went with Goldwater in '64 and were instrumental in the basis of your 'conservatives' of Goldwater/Reagan.

Read up a little on your mid century history shag – I realize you were busy blogging during that class – but now is the time to catch up on it. Some summer reading?

Again, do any of those sources show that those democrats were referred to as conservative IN 1965. Simply siting modern sources that look back and refer to them as conservative is irrelevant. Do you not understand what you need to prove? Are you simply spamming sources for the sake of spamming them?

So, you will need to go to the library shag – but there are dozens of books written at, and around the mid 1960’s, as well as into the 80s as well (because they were very important in the Reagan years) that call them conservative southern dems – I have them, I have done a lot of research into the 60s – I find it the most interesting time in the history of the United States, after the founding of our country. I am also very interested in presidential elections - I have all of "The making of..." books, excellent series if you want to make a president - sort of the bibles of the art.

A Very Personal Presidency, Lyndon Johnson in the White House
– Hugh Sidey (1968)
The Making of the President – 1960 – Theodore White (1962)
The Making of the President – 1964 - Theodore White (1966)
The Making of the President – 1968 - Theodore White (1970)
The Agony of the GOP 1964 – Robert Novak (1965)
The Decline and Fall of the Liberal Republican – Nicol Rae (1989) - aside - an excellent book if you can find it shag
Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years, 1954-1965 – Juan Williams (1988)

There are probably many more – and the one I linked to earlier is a good one as well.

Shag – quit this – it is what they were called – heck you can see lots of reference to conservative southern democrats in the 80s when Reagan was in office and needed their support…

It hurts – I know – let it go.

I was pointing out that there was no philosophical conservatism in play nationally in 1932. In fact, it didn't start until the late 1950's and into the 1960's.

Apparently context doesn't matter to you...

You weren’t – we have been talking about conservative southern democrats with regards to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 – not 1932, we have never, ever talked about 1932 – you are outright lying now shag – You can try to back track, but this has never, ever been about anything other than mid century history. In fact at that point I was pointing out that the backbone of Goldwater’s support came from the deep south, and those same Conservative Democrats. They are one of the starting points of the conservative movement that as you said peaked during the Reagan years – heck, Reagan still depended on those 'conservative southern democrats' to help get his policies through.

Shag – I am not misrepresenting conservatives – you want to hold on to some sort of white knight ideal that does not exist. As you pointed out conservatism is not only unique to each country – it is also unique to a time within history as well. The conservatives at the time of the American Revolution were the ones that wanted to cleave to the monarchy, it was the liberals that were the revolutionaries – that is a fact. We now look at what the founding fathers put into place, and the current day people who want to hold it as ‘sacred’ as conservatives. It doesn’t change the fact that those monarchists of the 1700s were considered conservatives of their time.

Just as the fact that the KKK of old were part of the Democratic party has also changed. They are no longer members of the current Democratic party. What parties stand for change, but hopefully (unless you really want to go down the revisionist road shag) history doesn’t. The Democrats are stuck with the historical record of fighting against equal rights, fighting against freeing slaves, and a myriad of other dark times in our political history. Just as the Republicans have their share of devils in the closet (however, I will say this – I think the dems win for most, and most evil, devils).

Your definitions of conservatism will not change what groups of people have been referred to in the past, that is wrong.
 
Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican – by today’s standards – not even close – but suddenly you are going to revise history and call him a Democrat?

You love those straw men, don't you.

So, you will need to go to the library shag – but there are dozens of books written at, and around the mid 1960’s, as well as into the 80s as well (because they were very important in the Reagan years) that call them conservative southern dems

Considering your track record on this forum, your word is not enough to go on here. Since going to the library and reading through a number of books is impractical and an absurd expectation in the context of this debate, all that is left is your word.

Also, being called "conservative democrats" in the 1980's is irrelevant to disproving my statement and actually confirms it as circumstantial evidence. You have yet to cite any evidence that disproves my claim and proves yours. Only assertion.

You weren’t – we have been talking about conservative southern democrats with regards to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 – not 1932

So you have some way of reading minds now? I looked at that article you cited (to make sure you were not taking something out of context), saw the time frame it cited and knew that conservatism wasn't really on the national political scene until around the early 1960's. If you go back to post #113 that is apparent. My wording may have been a little vague, but you are putting words in my mouth. Stop it.

Shag – I am not misrepresenting conservatives – you want to hold on to some sort of white knight ideal that does not exist. As you pointed out conservatism is not only unique to each country – it is also unique to a time within history as well.

You never have been real good on philosophy. Conservatism is not rooted in ideals. That is why it is not technically an ideology. The more you try and defend your smear, the more you demonstrate your ignorance of what you are talking about.

There was no political conservatism in America at the time of the Revolution. In fact, the father of conservatism supported the America Revolution and conservative notions played a part in the creation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Your claim of conservatism being unique to a time in history is a misleading generalization. Conservatism arises after a certain point in the development of a nation. America was a newborn at the time of the Revolution and had not been around long enough for a conservative movement to develop. In fact, a conservative movement didn't come about in America until the early 1960's. If you had any clue of the history of conservatism you would know that. Unfortunately, your ignorance on philosophy and the history of political thought is legendary.

There was no liberal/conservative dichotomy anywhere in the world at the time of the American Revolution. In trying to fit the political views of the Revolution into a modern day political dichotomy, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

You could go with a dichotomy closer to that time, between the Jacobins and Anti-Jacobins (radicals/reactionaries), but the American Revolution also predates that dichotomy. Again, you would be attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The fact is that you are attempting to smear and mislead.

Your definitions of conservatism will not change what groups of people have been referred to in the past, that is wrong.

Another straw man.

Apparently you won't even consider the idea that people may be (or have been) referred to as "conservative" when they are not, or that certain positions may be referred to as "conservative" when they are not. Apparently you can't get past leftist dogma and are bound and determine to falsely attribute certain positions/actions to conservatism by any means necessary.

This, ironically, flies in the face of your argument against the idea of a connection between Socialism, Fascism/Nazism and Progressivism. You seem very concerned with avoiding false attribution and painting with too broad a brush when it comes to that issue, but you show no such concern here...

If you are myopically focused on spreading lies about conservatism, then you clearly are not interested in anything approaching an honest and productive discussion. It seems all you have left is repeating assertions you can't back up and transparent excuses to rationalize those claims. You and are wasting everyone's time.
 
Wasting everyone's time is her specialty. And brevity is not her strong suit. I've never known anyone who used so many words to say absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:
 
Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican – by today’s standards – not even close – but suddenly you are going to revise history and call him a Democrat?
Fox, since you're so fond of saying this - either show where Shag said this or retract it. :rolleyes:
 
It's a given that no matter how short my post, you manage to misunderstand its meaning.
what you quoted was directed at shag, so i took it's direct meaning.
i didn't misunderstand it.
 
Fox, since you're so fond of saying this - either show where Shag said this or retract it. :rolleyes:
I didn't say that shag said it - I am using it as an example. We still call Teddy Roosevelt a Republican, though by today's standards he wouldn't be one. We keep the historical term, even though it may conflict with our 'current' definition.

And brevity is not her strong suit. I've never known anyone who used so many words to say absolutely nothing.
As far as 'length' I know that this is a sore spot with you foss... but the two responses of shag's that I was responding to were 50% longer than mine... obviously shag has nothing to worry about when it comes to post length envy... ;)
 
I didn't say that shag said it - I am using it as an example. We still call Teddy Roosevelt a Republican, though by today's standards he wouldn't be one. We keep the historical term, even though it may conflict with our 'current' definition.

What "standards" are you talking about?

Are you confusing "Conservative" with "Republican"? Again.
 
What "standards" are you talking about?

Are you confusing "Conservative" with "Republican"? Again.

No - I am saying that we still refer to Teddy R. as a republican. The world has changed, along with the party since the turn of the 20th century - but that doesn't change the fact that he was a republican. His values and ideals today would place him right in the middle of the Democrat party, but we don't alter what he was referred to at the time. He is now, and will forever be a republican.

Just as a majority of the democrats in the south after Wilson were often referred to as 'conservative southern democrats'. The fact that we might define conservative differently now doesn't negate the fact that is what they were known as...
And now for...

Considering your track record on this forum, your word is not enough to go on here. Since going to the library and reading through a number of books is impractical and an absurd expectation in the context of this debate, all that is left is your word.

Also, being called "conservative democrats" in the 1980's is irrelevant to disproving my statement and actually confirms it as circumstantial evidence. You have yet to cite any evidence that disproves my claim and proves yours. Only assertion.

Shag, you have done this a lot – ‘claim’ that my word is not enough – that somehow I have some awful track record.

Well first off – show me my track record where what I have said I haven’t been able to back…

And ponder this shag….

From Googles free books…

Party and factional division in Texas - James Rudolph Soukup (1964)
Page 45

Politics and the economy -James E. Anderson (1966)
Page 218


Meet the press:America's press conference of the air, Volume 5 - Lawrence Edmund Spivak (1961)
Page 296

The Western World:Renaissance to the present - James Russell Major (1966)
Page 691

Mencken - Carl Bode (1969)
Page 12

And 49 more shag – that is just in Google’s free book listings… they don’t have bestselling type books, like I listed before.

So you have some way of reading minds now? I looked at that article you cited (to make sure you were not taking something out of context), saw the time frame it cited and knew that conservatism wasn't really on the national political scene until around the early 1960's. If you go back to post #113 that is apparent. My wording may have been a little vague, but you are putting words in my mouth. Stop it.

Same google freebies…

LIFE - Aug 7, 1944
Page 83

The price of union - Herbert Agar 1950
Page 662

and lots more - you get the idea…

Shag – guess what – there were conservative people around during the time of the revolution – they wanted to keep things the same. That is what conservative people do.

The root word comes from servare - a Latin verb that means to make safe, save, preserve, guard, protect, etc. So, even the ancient Romans had conservatives…

Get your head out of the sand shag – and step away from all the philosophical mumbo jumbo and try to understand this…

There have been conservatives forever, just because they wanted to conserve something different that the current political definition doesn’t make them any less ‘conservative’. Just as 250 years from now the conservatives of the future will be looking to ‘conserve’ something quite different than the current crop of conservatives.
 
The fact that we might define conservative differently now doesn't negate the fact that is what they were known as...

I will concede the point that those Southern Dems were referred to as "conservative" at that time, at least by some. But that "conservatism" was hardly in the same sense as principled political conservatism. There was no philosophical conservatism (or any coherent philosophical viewpoint) with the segregationists. Only in the broadest, non-political or philosophical sense of the word could it be claimed that Southern Democrats were "conservative". You fail to make that distinction and that implicitly (through effective equivocation) gives the false impression that there is some philosophical connection. That false implication is very typical today among leftist scholars promoting propaganda as empirical science.

Also, it is unclear as to weather or not that "conservative" label was simply a distinction employed by liberals back then as a means to isolate southern Democrats politically. Much like German socialists labeled Nazi as "reactionary" and, therefore "right wing". Was this label of "conservative" Democrats also widely accepted, or just among leftist circles which dominated academia, Hollywood and the media, much like today. Most leftists in academia (outside of specific disciplines) do not understand what conservatism is and/or actively look to disparage conservatism. This leads to a misapplication of the term and, over the long run, to the term being defined down.

The fact is that there is no philosophical link between segregation and conservatism, much as modern leftists try and claim. The fact that they still, even today seek to actively smear conservatism through the race/segregation issue (specifically through the leftist myth concerning the 'Southern Strategy') is enough of a reason to be highly skeptical on anything and everything coming from a leftist point of view on this issue that doesn't have direct empirical verification.

Can you provide proof that this was the generally accepted terminology of the day? Maybe one of these "conservative" Southern Democrats referring to themselves as such? Or maybe a genuine conservative (Buckley, Goldwater) referring to Southern Democrats as "conservative"?

The aggressor sets the rules in a debate and distorting the language is a subtle way of doing that.

Shag – guess what – there were conservative people around during the time of the revolution – they wanted to keep things the same. That is what conservative people do.

Again, if you are distinguishing between principled, political and philosophical conservatism (which was in it's infancy in England at that time) as opposed to some simplistic reactionary attempt to blindly defend the status quo, I would agree that there was a conservative sentiment at that time. But without those distinctions you seem to be equivocating and spinning. When you are talking about political philosophy those distinction are very important. Considering your argument concerning the Socialist/Nazi issue, I assume you would agree.

There was no political/philosophical conservatism in America at the time of the revolution. In fact, the closest you could find would have been in Britain with Edmund Burke who was sympathetic to the Revolution.

As a side not, it would be more accurate to simply call those views "reactionary" as that was more in line with the typically understood political dichotomy at the time. "Conservative" was not even in the political lexicon at the time of the Revolution and political conservatism was in it's infancy in England.
 
This is a great article in exposing the myth of the "Southern Strategy".

The Myth of the Racist Republicans
By Gerard Alexander

A myth about conservatism is circulating in academia and journalism and has spread to the 2004 presidential campaign. It goes something like this: the Republican Party assembled a national majority by winning over Southern white voters; Southern white voters are racist; therefore, the GOP is racist. Sometimes the conclusion is softened, and Republicans are convicted merely of base opportunism: the GOP is the party that became willing to pander to racists. Either way, today's Republican Party—and by extension the conservative movement at its heart—supposedly has revealed something terrible about itself.

This myth is not the only viewpoint in scholarly debates on the subject. But it is testimony to its growing influence that it is taken aboard by writers like Dan Carter, a prize-winning biographer of George Wallace, and to a lesser extent by the respected students of the South, Earl and Merle Black. It is so pervasive in mass media reporting on racial issues that an NBC news anchor can casually speak of "a new era for the Republican Party, one in which racial intolerance really won't be tolerated." It has become a staple of Democratic politicians like Howard Dean, who accuses Republicans of "dividing Americans against each other, stirring up racial prejudices and bringing out the worst in people" through the use of so-called racist "codewords." All this matters because people use such putative connections to form judgments, and "racist" is as toxic a reputation as one can have in U.S. politics. Certainly the 2000 Bush campaign went to a lot of trouble to combat the GOP's reputation as racially exclusionary. I even know young Republicans who fear that behind their party's victories lies a dirty, not-so-little Southern secret.

Now to be sure, the GOP had a Southern strategy. Willing to work with, rather than against, the grain of Southern opinion, local Republicans ran some segregationist candidates in the 1960s. And from the 1950s on, virtually all national and local GOP candidates tried to craft policies and messages that could compete for the votes of some pretty unsavory characters. This record is incontestable. It is also not much of a story—that a party acted expediently in an often nasty political context.

The new myth is much bolder than this. It insists that these events should decisively shape our understanding of conservatism and the modern Republican Party. Dan Carter writes that today's conservatism must be traced directly back to the "politics of rage" that George Wallace blended from "racial fear, anticommunism, cultural nostalgia, and traditional right-wing economics." Another scholar, Joseph Aistrup, claims that Reagan's 1980 Southern coalition was "the reincarnation of the Wallace movement of 1968." For the Black brothers, the GOP had once been the "party of Abraham Lincoln," but it became the "party of Barry Goldwater," opposed to civil rights and black interests. It is only a short step to the Democrats' insinuation that the GOP is the latest exploiter of the tragic, race-based thread of U.S. history. In short, the GOP did not merely seek votes expediently; it made a pact with America's devil.

The mythmakers typically draw on two types of evidence. First, they argue that the GOP deliberately crafted its core messages to accommodate Southern racists. Second, they find proof in the electoral pudding: the GOP captured the core of the Southern white backlash vote. But neither type of evidence is very persuasive. It is not at all clear that the GOP's policy positions are sugar-coated racist appeals. And election results show that the GOP became the South's dominant party in the least racist phase of the region's history, and got—and stays—that way as the party of the upwardly mobile, more socially conservative, openly patriotic middle-class, not of white solidarity.

Let's start with policies. Like many others, Carter and the Black brothers argue that the GOP appealed to Southern racism not explicitly but through "coded" racial appeals. Carter is representative of many when he says that Wallace's racialism can be seen, varying in style but not substance, in "Goldwater's vote against the Civil Rights Bill of 1964, in Richard Nixon's subtle manipulation of the busing issue, in Ronald Reagan's genial demolition of affirmative action, in George Bush's use of the Willie Horton ads, and in Newt Gingrich's demonization of welfare mothers."

The problem here is that Wallace's segregationism was obviously racist, but these other positions are not obviously racist. This creates an analytic challenge that these authors do not meet. If an illegitimate viewpoint (racism) is hidden inside another viewpoint, that second view—to be a useful hiding place—must be one that can be held for entirely legitimate (non-racist) reasons. Conservative intellectuals might not always linger long enough on the fact that opposition to busing and affirmative action can be disguised racism. On the other hand, these are also positions that principled non-racists can hold. To be persuasive, claims of coding must establish how to tell which is which. Racial coding is often said to occur when voters are highly prone to understanding a non-racist message as a proxy for something else that is racist. This may have happened in 1964, when Goldwater, who neither supported segregation nor called for it, employed the term "states' rights," which to many whites in the Deep South implied the continuation of Jim Crow.

The problem comes when we try to extend this forward. Black and Black try to do this by showing that Nixon and Reagan crafted positions on busing, affirmative action, and welfare reform in a political climate in which many white voters doubted the virtues of preferential hiring, valued individual responsibility, and opposed busing as intrusive. To be condemned as racist "code," the GOP's positions would have to come across as proxies for these views -and in turn these views would have to be racist. The problem is that these views are not self-evidently racist. Many scholars simply treat them as if they were. Adding insult to injury, usually they don't even pause to identify when views like opposition to affirmative action would not be racist.

In effect, these critics want to have it both ways: they acknowledge that these views could in principle be non-racist (otherwise they wouldn't be a "code" for racism) but suggest they never are in practice (and so can be reliably treated as proxies for racism). The result is that their claims are non-falsifiable because they are tautological: these views are deemed racist because they are defined as racist. This amounts to saying that opposition to the policies favored by today's civil rights establishment is a valid indicator of racism. One suspects these theorists would, quite correctly, insist that people can disagree with the Israeli government without being in any way anti-Semitic. But they do not extend the same distinction to this issue. This is partisanship posturing as social science.

The Southern Strategy

This bias is evident also in how differently they treat the long Democratic dominance of the South. Carter and the Black brothers suggest that the accommodation of white racism penetrates to the very soul of modern conservatism. But earlier generations of openly segregationist Southerners voted overwhelmingly for Woodrow Wilson's and Franklin Roosevelt's Democratic Party, which relaxed its civil rights stances accordingly. This coalition passed much of the New Deal legislation that remains the basis of modern liberalism. So what does the segregationist presence imply for the character of liberalism at its electoral and legislative apogee? These scholars sidestep the question by simply not discussing it. This silence implies that racism and liberalism were simply strange political bedfellows, without any common values.

But the commonality, the philosophical link, is swiftly identified once the Democrats leave the stage. In study after study, authors say that "racial and economic conservatism" married white Southerners to the GOP after 1964. So whereas historically accidental events must have led racists to vote for good men like FDR, after 1964 racists voted their conscience. How convenient. And how easy it would be for, say, a libertarian conservative like Walter Williams to generate a counter-narrative that exposes statism as the philosophical link between segregation and liberalism's economic populism.

Yet liberal commentators commit a further, even more obvious, analytic error. They assume that if many former Wallace voters ended up voting Republican in the 1970s and beyond, it had to be because Republicans went to the segregationist mountain, rather than the mountain coming to them. There are two reasons to question this assumption. The first is the logic of electoral competition. Extremist voters usually have little choice but to vote for a major party which they consider at best the lesser of two evils, one that offers them little of what they truly desire. Segregationists were in this position after 1968, when Wallace won less than 9% of the electoral college and Nixon became president anyway, without their votes. Segregationists simply had very limited national bargaining power. In the end, not the Deep South but the GOP was the mountain.

Second, this was borne out in how little the GOP had to "offer," so to speak, segregationists for their support after 1968, even according to the myth's own terms. Segregationists wanted policies that privileged whites. In the GOP, they had to settle for relatively race-neutral policies: opposition to forced busing and reluctant coexistence with affirmative action. The reason these policies aren't plausible codes for real racism is that they aren't the equivalents of discrimination, much less of segregation.

Why did segregationists settle for these policies rather than continue to vote Democratic? The GOP's appeal was mightily aided by none other than the Democratic Party itself, which was lurching leftward in the 1970s, becoming, as the contemporary phrase had it, the party of "acid, amnesty, and abortion." Among other things, the Democrats absorbed a civil rights movement that was itself expanding, and thus diluting, its agenda to include economic redistributionism, opposition to the Vietnam War, and Black Power. The many enthusiasms of the new Democratic Party drove away suburban middle-class voters almost everywhere in the country, not least the South.

Given that trend, the GOP did not need to become the party of white solidarity in order to attract more voters. The fact that many former Wallace supporters ended up voting Republican says a lot less about the GOP than it does about segregationists' collapsing political alternatives. Kevin Phillips was hardly coy about this in his Emerging Republican Majority. He wrote in 1969 that Nixon did not "have to bid much ideologically" to get Wallace's electorate, given its limited power, and that moderation was far more promising for the GOP than anything even approaching a racialist strategy. While "the Republican Party cannot go to the Deep South"—meaning the GOP simply would not offer the policies that whites there seemed to desire most—"the Deep South must soon go to the national GOP," regardless.

Electoral Patterns

In all these ways, the GOP appears as the national party of the middle-class, not of white solidarity. And it is this interpretation, and not the myth, that is supported by the voting results. The myth's proponents highlight, and distort, a few key electoral facts: Southern white backlash was most heated in the 1960s, especially in the Deep South. It was then and there that the GOP finally broke through in the South, on the strength of Goldwater's appeals to states' rights. Democrats never again won the votes of most Southern whites. So Goldwater is said to have provided the electoral model for the GOP.

But hidden within these aggregate results are patterns that make no sense if white solidarity really was the basis for the GOP's advance. These patterns concern which Southern votes the GOP attracted, and when. How did the GOP's Southern advance actually unfold? We can distinguish between two sub-regions. The Peripheral South—Florida, Texas, Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina, and Arkansas—contained many growing, urbanizing "New South" areas and much smaller black populations. Race loomed less large in its politics. In the more rural, and poorer, Deep South—Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, and Louisiana —black communities were much larger, and racial conflict was much more acute in the 1950s and '60s. Tellingly, the presidential campaigns of Strom Thurmond, Goldwater, and Wallace all won a majority of white votes in the Deep South but lost the white vote in the Peripheral South.

The myth that links the GOP with racism leads us to expect that the GOP should have advanced first and most strongly where and when the politics of white solidarity were most intense. The GOP should have entrenched itself first among Deep South whites and only later in the Periphery. The GOP should have appealed at least as much, if not more, therefore, to the less educated, working-class whites who were not its natural voters elsewhere in the country but who were George Wallace's base. The GOP should have received more support from native white Southerners raised on the region's traditional racism than from white immigrants to the region from the Midwest and elsewhere. And as the Southern electorate aged over the ensuing decades, older voters should have identified as Republicans at higher rates than younger ones raised in a less racist era.

Each prediction is wrong. The evidence suggests that the GOP advanced in the South because it attracted much the same upwardly mobile (and non-union) economic and religious conservatives that it did elsewhere in the country.

Take presidential voting. Under FDR, the Democrats successfully assembled a daunting, cross-regional coalition of presidential voters. To compete, the GOP had to develop a broader national outreach of its own, which meant adding a Southern strategy to its arsenal. In 1952, Dwight Eisenhower took his campaign as national hero southward. He, like Nixon in 1960, polled badly among Deep South whites. But Ike won four states in the Peripheral South. This marked their lasting realignment in presidential voting. From 1952 to the Clinton years, Virginia reverted to the Democrats only once, Florida and Tennessee twice, and Texas—except when native-son LBJ was on the ballot—only twice, narrowly. Additionally, since 1952, North Carolina has consistently either gone Republican or come within a few percentage points of doing so.

In other words, states representing over half the South's electoral votes at the time have been consistently in play from 1952 on—since before Brown v. Board of Education, before Goldwater, before busing, and when the Republicans were the mainstay of civil rights bills. It was this which dramatically changed the GOP's presidential prospects. The GOP's breakthrough came in the least racially polarized part of the South. And its strongest supporters most years were "New South" urban and suburban middle- and upper-income voters. In 1964, as we've seen, Goldwater did the opposite: winning in the Deep South but losing the Peripheral South. But the pre-Goldwater pattern re-emerged soon afterward. When given the option in 1968, Deep South whites strongly preferred Wallace, and Nixon became president by winning most of the Peripheral South instead. From 1972 on, GOP presidential candidates won white voters at roughly even rates in the two sub-regions, sometimes slightly more in the Deep South, sometimes not. But by then, the Deep South had only about one-third of the South's total electoral votes; so it has been the Periphery, throughout, that provided the bulk of the GOP's Southern presidential support.
* * *​
The GOP's congressional gains followed the same pattern. Of course, it was harder for Republicans to win in Deep South states where Democratic-leaning black electorates were larger. But even when we account for that, the GOP became the dominant party of white voters much earlier in the Periphery than it did in the Deep South. Before Goldwater, the GOP's few Southern House seats were almost all in the Periphery (as was its sole Senator—John Tower of Texas). Several Deep South House members were elected with Goldwater but proved ephemeral, as Black and Black note: "Republicans lost ground and stalled in the Deep South for the rest of the decade," while in the Periphery they "continued to make incremental gains." In the 1960s and '70s, nearly three-quarters of GOP House victories were in the Peripheral rather than the Deep South, with the GOP winning twice as often in urban as rural districts. And six of the eight different Southern Republican Senators elected from 1961 to 1980 were from the Peripheral South. GOP candidates tended consistently to draw their strongest support from the more educated, middle- and upper-income white voters in small cities and suburbs. In fact, Goldwater in 1964—at least his Deep South performance, which is all that was controversial in this regard—was an aberration, not a model for the GOP.

Writers who vilify the GOP's Southern strategy might be surprised to find that all of this was evident, at least in broad brush-strokes, to the strategy's early proponents. In his well-known book, Kevin Phillips drew the lesson that a strong appeal in the Deep South, on the model of 1964, had already entailed and would entail defeat for the GOP everywhere else, including in what he termed the Outer South. He therefore rejected such an approach. He emphasized that Ike and Nixon did far better in the Peripheral South. He saw huge opportunities in the "youthful middle-class" of Texas, Florida, and other rapidly growing and changing Sun Belt states, where what he called "acutely Negrophobe politics" was weakest, not strongest. He thus endorsed "evolutionary success in the Outer South" as the basis of the GOP's "principal party strategy" for the region, concluding that this would bring the Deep South along in time, but emphatically on the national GOP's terms, not the segregationists'.

The tension between the myth and voting data escalates if we consider change across time. Starting in the 1950s, the South attracted millions of Midwesterners, Northeasterners, and other transplants. These "immigrants" identified themselves as Republicans at higher rates than native whites. In the 1980s, up to a quarter of self-declared Republicans in Texas appear to have been such immigrants. Furthermore, research consistently shows that identification with the GOP is stronger among the South's younger rather than older white voters, and that each cohort has also became more Republican with time. Do we really believe immigrants (like George H.W. Bush, who moved with his family to Texas) were more racist than native Southerners, and that younger Southerners identified more with white solidarity than did their elders, and that all cohorts did so more by the 1980s and '90s than they had earlier?

In sum, the GOP's Southern electorate was not rural, nativist, less educated, afraid of change, or concentrated in the most stagnant parts of the Deep South. It was disproportionately suburban, middle-class, educated, younger, non-native-Southern, and concentrated in the growth-points that were, so to speak, the least "Southern" parts of the South. This is a very strange way to reincarnate George Wallace's movement.

The Decline of Racism

Timing may provide the greatest gap between the myth and the actual unfolding of events. Only in the 1980s did more white Southerners self-identify as Republicans than as Democrats, and only in the mid-1990s did Republicans win most Southern House seats and become competitive in most state legislatures. So if the GOP's strength in the South only recently reached its zenith, and if its appeal were primarily racial in nature, then the white Southern electorate (or at least most of it) would have to be as racist as ever. But surely one of the most important events in Southern political history is the long-term decline of racism among whites. The fact that these (and many other) books suggest otherwise shows that the myth is ultimately based on a demonization not of the GOP but of Southerners, who are indeed assumed to have Confederate flags in their hearts if not on their pickups. This view lends The Rise of Southern Republicans a schizophrenic nature: it charts numerous changes in the South, but its organizing categories are predicated on the unsustainable assumption that racial views remain intact.

What's more, the trend away from confident beliefs in white supremacy may have begun earlier than we often think. David Chappell, a historian of religion, argues that during the height of the civil rights struggle, segregationists were denied the crucial prop of religious legitimacy. Large numbers of pastors of diverse denominations concluded that there was no Biblical foundation for either segregation or white superiority. Although many pastors remained segregationist anyway, the official shift was startling: "Before the Supreme Court's [Brown v. Board] decision of 1954, the southern Presbyterians. . . and, shortly after the decision, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) overwhelmingly passed resolutions supporting desegregation and calling on all to comply with it peacefully. . . . By 1958 all SBC seminaries accepted black applicants." With considerable understatement, Chappell notes that "people—even historians—are surprised to hear this." Billy Graham, the most prominent Southern preacher, was openly integrationist.

The point of all this is not to deny that Richard Nixon may have invited some nasty fellows into his political bed. The point is that the GOP finally became the region's dominant party in the least racist phase of the South's entire history, and it got that way by attracting most of its votes from the region's growing and confident communities—not its declining and fearful ones. The myth's shrillest proponents are as reluctant to admit this as they are to concede that most Republicans genuinely believe that a color-blind society lies down the road of individual choice and dynamic change, not down the road of state regulation and unequal treatment before the law. The truly tenacious prejudices here are the mythmakers'.
 
I didn't say that shag said it
Yes you did, liar. You can't un-type the things you typed, and you can't use a stupid Jedi mind trick to make the words disappear.

"These aren't the words you're looking for."

Quit dodging.
 
No - I am saying that we still refer to Teddy R. as a republican. The world has changed, along with the party since the turn of the 20th century - but that doesn't change the fact that he was a republican.

"Republican" is not synonymous with any abstract principles or philosophical viewpoint. It is simply a term to identify a party. TR would still be a Republican today, if he chose to be.

These distinctions are very important and not something to simply be glossed over.
 

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