front suspension

[NoLimit95]

93-98 Mark VIII has factory oem front air STRUTS?

Ohh hell, you have now got the strut nazi started. They are air shocks. Shock assembly. My box which is pictured in thaywoods post shows "shock assembly" but many people do like to call them struts for some odd reason. I have the AVS-17 box somewhere in the attic and it too says the same thing as the AVS-16 box.

 

[dnsherrill]

if my white '96 will pass emissions I may pull the trigger on new air SHOCKS....just wondering what other costs may be involved down the road;
some dude here in Atl has some used front front and rear air shocks/bags...he says they were on a Mark VIII and got replaced with 'fixed' suspension...I wonder why???

 

[thaywood]

 

[NoLimit95]

if my white '96 will pass emissions I may pull the trigger on new air SHOCKS....just wondering what other costs may be involved down the road;
some dude here in Atl has some used front front and rear air shocks/bags...he says they were on a Mark VIII and got replaced with 'fixed' suspension...I wonder why???

Probably because one of the front leaked. When one front leaks, the whole front goes down because one alone can not hold the weight up front. You can usually tell though by looking at the front as it is going down and see which one is leaking. If not, measure from the ground to the bottom of the fender to see which could be leaking. I know these you speak of are off but that would be my guess as to why they are off. Stay clear of Gen 1 steel air shocks. No good unless new and the price on them is insane. Gen 2 just have a better feel and less parts for corrosion.

This is what can happen with the steel ones and as you can see, that can't be good for the rubber when it folds down over that corrosion.

If you see black rubber build up around the bottom portion on a Gen 2 air shock, it's leaking or soon will be.

This is really what you want to see.

 

[chestnut101]

Great information on this thread. Thanks

 

[98lincmk7lsc]

...many people do like to call them struts for some odd reason.

Because it really doesn't matter...

 

[thaywood]

Oh dangit, here I go again I just can't help myself. It's like a nervous tick or something :lol:

Because it really doesn't matter...

Actually, technically, it does matter. There is a distinct and fundamental difference between the design and execution of a McPherson strut suspension and an Upper and Lower Control Arm (or SLA - Short/Long/Arm) suspension design. In a strut design, there is no upper control arm and the strut is bolted directly to the spindle and turns with the wheels. The strut performs three essential functions. It acts as a damper, steering kingpin, and upper suspension locating link. In an SLA design (like the Mark VIII), the shock/spring is bolted to the LCA (or UCA as in the old Falcon plaform) and only performs one function. It acts as a damper only. In most newer SLA designs, the air or coil spring is integrated with the shock absorber. However, because there is an upper control arm present, it makes no difference if the shock and spring are integrated or separate, it still can not be a strut design by definition. I know this won't clarify anything for some incredibly stubborn folks. But it's the best I can do to clearly and accurately demonstrate why the Mark VIII's suspension can not have McPherson struts by any stretch of the imagination. This is not an opinion. It is a proven fact.

 

[98lincmk7lsc]

Oh dangit, here I go again I just can't help myself. It's like a nervous tick or something :lol:

Actually, technically, it does matter. There is a distinct and fundamental difference between the design and execution of a McPherson strut suspension and an Upper and Lower Control Arm (or SLA - Short/Long/Arm) suspension design. In a strut design, there is no upper control arm and the strut is bolted directly to the spindle and turns with the wheels. The strut performs three essential functions. It acts as a damper, steering kingpin, and upper suspension locating link. In an SLA design (like the Mark VIII), the shock/spring is bolted to the LCA (or UCA as in the old Falcon plaform) and only performs one function. It acts as a damper only. In most newer SLA designs, the air or coil spring is integrated with the shock absorber. However, because there is an upper control arm present, it makes no difference if the shock and spring are integrated or separate, it still can not be a strut design by definition. I know this won't clarify anything for some incredibly stubborn folks. But it's the best I can do to clearly and accurately demonstrate why the Mark VIII's suspension can not have McPherson struts by any stretch of the imagination. This is not an opinion. It is a proven fact.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

If you check my post, I was responding to Terry's statement that, "many people do like to call them struts for some odd reason." It really doesn't matter what people choose to call them, so long as it's understood what they're referring to. Just like when you said "nervous tick" instead of nervous tic. I'm sure we all understood what you were talking about.

In response to the second part of your post...."No sh!t."

Much like it's pretty obvious you weren't talking about an anxious arachnid, it's equally obvious that these people aren't talking about/installing "MacPherson" (the correct spelling....not an opinion, but a proven fact) struts on their cars.

Strut - A structural element used to brace or strengthen a framework by resisting longitudinal compression.

A shock absorber is a mechanical device designed to smooth out or damp shock impulse, and dissipate kinetic energy.

If they were saying "MacPherson strut," they would obviously be wrong. Since they're not, I think a little leeway can be granted. By the definition above, a Mark VIII's shocks could be considered a "strut." Similarly, the opposite could be considered true, since the MacPherson struts integrate a "shock" into it's assembly.

In closing, calm the fukk down with this. There are much more important things in the world and in your life than what some random person on the internet uses to describe a shock assembly.

 

[dnsherrill]

when a Mark VIII has coil shocks instead of air shocks it still has the SLA?(U and LCA) yes? so how is the essential design compromised?

 

[thaywood]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

I know I sound like a nutcase. And don't ask me to explain my irrational hatred of struts. I have never liked the strut suspension design. Whether it is a "Mac"Pherson strut (it can be and has been spelled both ways depending upon which source you cite) or a Chapman strut. A strut design is still a strut design and is completely different in execution and componentry form an SLA design. To describe the Mark VIII's air shock unit as a strut is incorrect. A Mustang has a strut suspension. A Focus has a strut suspension. The new Camaro has a strut suspension. The Mark VIII does not. It has an SLA suspension. There's an obvious and fundamental difference. And to call the Mark VIII's front suspension a strut design is an insult in my opinion. Struts belong on cheap japanese econoboxes. That's probably one reason why Ford decided to upgrade the Mark's suspension from the cheaper and less complicated strut design from the VII to the more modern and infinitely more adjustible SLA design to provide better ride and handling characteristics as opposed to the struts of the past model.



In conclusion, I will probably continue to stir things up every so often I can't help it. When discussing automotive suspension designs, everybody knows what a "strut" is. And everybody knows what SLA means. The word "Mac"Pherson or "Chapman" don't need to be used to describe struts because the strut suspension is s specific design type. As is the SLA or upper/lower control arm. They are completely different designs. I don't know how much more simple I can make it. But for now, I'll shut up. I have made every effort to make my point. I don't wish to anger anyone. I'm just very OCD about some things:lol: At least that's what my ex would tell you...there's that nervous tick again...

when a Mark VIII has coil shocks instead of air shocks it still has the SLA?(U and LCA) yes? so how is the essential design compromised?

It's not compromised. It's still an SLA suspension as opposed to being a strut design. Look at a Fox platform Mark VII. That is a strut design. Or look at the SN95 or S197 Mustang. Both have strut front suspensions. The MN12/FN10 platform has always had an SLA front suspension. Whether it has coil-over shocks like the T-Bird/Cougar or air spring/shock assemblies like the Mark VIII. It's still and SLA design and not a strut setup.

 

[dnsherrill]

ahhh, so it IS all about semantics???
-on a side note, with my slamming front end, someone suggested it could just be the o rings, and not the air shocks per say....is he talking about the supply hose to solenoid union?

 

[thaywood]

ahhh, so it IS all about semantics???

Ugh. No. "Facepalm" I give up

 

[dnsherrill]

Ugh.I give up

HIGHLY unlikely

 

[98lincmk7lsc]

I guess I'll post this again at the beginning this time...

Strut - A structural element used to brace or strengthen a framework by resisting longitudinal compression.

Just remember that. That's defining a strut. By that definition, our air shocks could be called a strut. They are put into place to "resist longitudinal compression." Argue with me that that's not the case...

I know I sound like a nutcase. And don't ask me to explain my irrational hatred of struts. I have never liked the strut suspension design. Whether it is a "Mac"Pherson strut (it can be and has been spelled both ways depending upon which source you cite) or a Chapman strut.

Sure, it CAN be spelled however you like. You can spell it "MkFearsin" for all I care, but Earle MacPherson (the designer of the "modern" MacPherson strut, and the only source you should cite) wouldn't like it very much...

I just figured if you're going to spend all of this time "educating" people on these, you might want to know how to spell it correctly.

Also, a Chapman strut is essentially a MacPherson strut adapted into a rear suspension design.

A strut design is still a strut design and is completely different in execution and componentry form an SLA design. To describe the Mark VIII's air shock unit as a strut is incorrect. A Mustang has a strut suspension. A Focus has a strut suspension. The new Camaro has a strut suspension. The Mark VIII does not. It has an SLA suspension. There's an obvious and fundamental difference. And to call the Mark VIII's front suspension a strut design is an insult in my opinion. Struts belong on cheap japanese econoboxes. That's probably one reason why Ford decided to upgrade the Mark's suspension from the cheaper and less complicated strut design from the VII to the more modern and infinitely more adjustible SLA design to provide better ride and handling characteristics as opposed to the struts of the past model.

Sure, there is a major difference in design between an "SLA" suspension (1930's)and a "MacPherson strut" suspension (1949 so, by definition, more modern), but that doesn't change the fact that, for our purposes (automobile), the definitions of strut and shock essentially interchange when used in reference to this specific part. Plus, to say that they're completely different in execution and componentry is just ridiculous.

Take the following picture....you would call the parts on the left "struts", and the parts on the right "shocks". The only difference between the 2 sets is the mounting points. Completely different, they are not.

In conclusion, I will probably continue to stir things up every so often I can't help it. When discussing automotive suspension designs, everybody knows what a "strut" is. And everybody knows what SLA means. The word "Mac"Pherson or "Chapman" don't need to be used to describe struts because the strut suspension is s specific design type. As is the SLA or upper/lower control arm. They are completely different designs. I don't know how much more simple I can make it. But for now, I'll shut up. I have made every effort to make my point. I don't wish to anger anyone. I'm just very OCD about some things:lol: At least that's what my ex would tell you...there's that nervous tick again...

You say that you don't wish to anger anyone, but I've seen you be downright rude to people on here about this topic in the past. I didn't say anything then, but I should have. If it continues, I will in the future. Sure, it's debatable. Talk to Joey and see if he'll start a "struts vs. shocks" subforum right next to the political forum. There, you can get as rowdy as you want. Until then, cool it. It's uncalled for and unnecessary, and I've really had enough of it.

I'm OCD about grammar and spelling mistakes but I don't berate people for messing it up. I understand that I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else. Sometimes I'll point it out in jest or to prove a point, but nothing further. I have enough to worry about with my own life, I don't need to worry about others. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the same could be said for yours.

 

[thaywood]

I guess I'll post this again at the beginning this time...

Just remember that. That's defining a strut. By that definition, our air shocks could be called a strut. They are put into place to "resist longitudinal compression." Argue with me that that's not the case....

True. In a sense. However, the Mark VIII's air shock is not a strut in the traditional sense as defined by the MacPherson strut suspension design (Earl MacPherson was the inventor and his name is spelled with a "Mac" My mistake.) We're not talking about structural engineering. We're talking about automotive suspension designs. Apples and oranges.

Sure, it CAN be spelled however you like. You can spell it "MkFearsin" for all I care, but Earle MacPherson (the designer of the "modern" MacPherson strut, and the only source you should cite) wouldn't like it very much...I just figured if you're going to spend all of this time "educating" people on these, you might want to know how to spell it correctly.

See above.

Also, a Chapman strut is essentially a MacPherson strut adapted into a rear suspension design.

Yep. I think I already mentioned that. The name was coined by Collin Chapman of Lotus fame.

Sure, there is a major difference in design between an "SLA" suspension (1930's)and a "MacPherson strut" suspension (1949 so, by definition, more modern), but that doesn't change the fact that, for our purposes (automobile), the definitions of strut and shock essentially interchange when used in reference to this specific part. Plus, to say that they're completely different in execution and componentry is just ridiculous.

The fact that a strut suspension design doesn't have an upper control arm and that the strut bolts directly to the spindle and turns with the wheels makes it a substantially different design with different componentry as compared to an upper and lower control arm (SLA) design. One cannot put a strut in an SLA suspension. Nor can one mount a standard shock ito a strut design without major modification to the mounting bracket.

Take the following picture....you would call the parts on the left "struts", and the parts on the right "shocks". The only difference between the 2 sets is the mounting points. Completely different, they are not.

Indeed. The "strut" has a mounting bracket that bolts directly to the spindle. And if there is a coil spring mounted on top of the strut, it would have a bearing plate on top to allow it to turn with the steering (unless it is a "modified" MacPherson strut setup like the Fox body in which the spring is separate from the strut). The shock on the right has no such hardware. The strut acts as a damper, steering kingpin, and upper suspension locating link. The shock only acts as a damper. Both have hydraulic damping properties, but their design, execution, and uses are very different.

You say that you don't wish to anger anyone, but I've seen you be downright rude to people on here about this topic in the past. I didn't say anything then, but I should have. If it continues, I will in the future. Sure, it's debatable. Talk to Joey and see if he'll start a "struts vs. shocks" subforum right next to the political forum. There, you can get as rowdy as you want. Until then, cool it. It's uncalled for and unnecessary, and I've really had enough of it.

If I have been "rude" to anyone, I sincerely appologize. I do tend to get on my soapbox about some issues that are important to me.

I'm OCD about grammar and spelling mistakes but I don't berate people for messing it up. I understand that I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else. Sometimes I'll point it out in jest or to prove a point, but nothing further. I have enough to worry about with my own life, I don't need to worry about others. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the same could be said for yours.

I have the same OCD issues. And again, if I have "berated" anyone, I do appologize. Sometimes I do come off as a bit of a jerk when it comes to things I'm passionate about. Just the other day somebody asked me what kind of "jeep" I was driving. I was driving my Explorer. Not a "jeep". You can imagine the lecture the young man got concerning the differences between Jeep and Ford SUV's Anyhoo, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. It is incorrect to call the air spring/shock units on the Mark VIII or even the coil-over shocks on the MN12 T-Bird/Cougar struts because these vehicles do not have strut suspensions. Now, if you're talking about the old Fox body T-Bird/Cougar/Mark VII, "strut" would indeed be the correct usage to describe the manner in which the shock absorber is mounted and used in that type of suspension. Calling the Mark VIII's shocks "struts" just because it's a shock absorber in a suspension system is very similar to that young man calling my Explorer a "jeep" simply because it's an SUV.

 

[9 marks]

Boy did i get the tread going! Sarad, to accomadate me, sent their truck to my office to deliver Friday so I could install Sunday. New Motorcraft in box stapled shut. FYI to all ordering there is a right and a left. I asked for any tips, no one replied. Job went smoothly no hitches 1.5hr. left 1 hr. right. If your car has not had front end work done might as well do the Upper control arms and stabilizer links while you are at it. Mine were shot ( not too much play) greased them up thru broken boots and will have to address another day.

Tip I would have liked was how can yopu possibly get the air line out of the solenoid w/o damaging it and how do you press or install back into solenoid I was not going to ruine my life by trying. I used the old solenoid connected to the line swapped the vent cap and cylidrical foam spring and lubricated a bit. Not brave enough to pry that baby out. I do not know if this is normal but took a couple tries to pump up all the way ( engine off and restart ) but sitting fine and good overnight. Seems with all three mark 8's I have had they all need bags at 110k 0r so in North East. climate. Just say no to spring conversion!!!!! This was the finest vehicle America had to offer ,however tedious this suspension is they knew what they were doing. It's a Lincoln! Been in a mark for 36years and half a million miles.

 

[NoLimit95]

Boy did i get the tread going! Sarad, to accomadate me, sent their truck to my office to deliver Friday so I could install Sunday. New Motorcraft in box stapled shut. FYI to all ordering there is a right and a left. I asked for any tips, no one replied. Job went smoothly no hitches 1.5hr. left 1 hr. right. If your car has not had front end work done might as well do the Upper control arms and stabilizer links while you are at it. Mine were shot ( not too much play) greased them up thru broken boots and will have to address another day.

Tip I would have liked was how can yopu possibly get the air line out of the solenoid w/o damaging it and how do you press or install back into solenoid I was not going to ruine my life by trying. I used the old solenoid connected to the line swapped the vent cap and cylidrical foam spring and lubricated a bit. Not brave enough to pry that baby out. I do not know if this is normal but took a couple tries to pump up all the way ( engine off and restart ) but sitting fine and good overnight. Seems with all three mark 8's I have had they all need bags at 110k 0r so in North East. climate. Just say no to spring conversion!!!!! This was the finest vehicle America had to offer ,however tedious this suspension is they knew what they were doing. It's a Lincoln! Been in a mark for 36years and half a million miles.

Getting the air line out is done by pressing in on the orange ring around the air line and pulling the line out at the same time. It might take a few minutes and it might just come right out. Right next to the orange ring, it could be cut with a good sharp razor and then pressed directly into the new air shock, once installed. I didn't cut anything when I done mine. I just pushed the ring in and pulled the line out and then pushed it in the new air shocks solenoid. If it took a couple of times to pump up, it's usually normal but also means that the air pump is possibly getting weak and not pumping as much air as a nice rebuilt one would. I can slam my entire car to the ground with the "Rays Switch" and then reset the switch or simply just start the car up and it will pump up all 4 bags completely, within it's 90 second time frame. The compressor I have was installed in Jan 2010 and came from Eddie at American Air Suspension. I haven't had one problem with his compressor since I bought it but he supposedly rebuilds them better than they were made new from the factory. Is this true? I don't know but mine does the job wonderfully and quietly.

 

[NoLimit95]

Because it really doesn't matter...

You're correct, it really doesn't matter. If one were to go looking for the part, they would likely find it easier by searching for a "strut"or when calling, asking for a "strut" because most parts places call them that. If they're going to be called struts, I think "air strut" would better fit the description a little more but it is what it is and people are going to call them what they will. When strut is mentioned, yes, I know what they're really talking about. I do correct here and there but not often and never with any rudeness. Never noticed thaywood being rude but I also don't pay attention to all posts that are made and or I could have just missed it. I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it, "in a hateful way". Anyway, the majority of us know they are a shock assembly, according to Motorcraft themselves. Not sure where air shock even came from lol but since it hold air and has a shock inside, sounds good to me. Really, I don't care what anyone calls them to be honest. I don't foresee having any problems with mine within the next decade or longer and by then, I might not even have the car. Never know what might happen. When I'm done with the exhaust, I might look into getting another set for the front, just in case. They'll remain in the box and opened to make sure the rubber is conditioned about once a year and nothing more. I would also like to go ahead and get another compressor from Eddie and keep it put up in the box. I hope to have my car in running condition for the next 20+ years, hopefully longer and under 150K (dreaming)

 

[dnsherrill]

Job went smoothly no hitches 1.5hr. left 1 hr. right. If your car has not had front end work done might as well do the Upper control arms and stabilizer links while you are at it. Just say no to spring conversion!!!!! This was the finest vehicle America had to offer ,however tedious this suspension is they knew what they were doing. It's a Lincoln! Been in a mark for 36years and half a million miles.

-good job! hopefully I'll be doing new bags on my white one pretty soon

 

[UltimateSVT]

I miss the air ride system a whole lot, especially when I had my Marks sensor lowered but damn it feels stress free to be sprung!

 

[dnsherrill]

right now I have one with air, one without...it's def nice knowing my suspension is not going to sink (on coils)

 

[9 marks]

Thanks for the tip no Limit. Will keep it in my bag of tricks. Forgot to mention i swapped the two sets of solenoid o rings also ( very important!)

 

[dnsherrill]

I think you need new front air shocks and you should be set. AVS-16 & AVS-17 are what you need.


[url]http://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-AVS17-Spring/dp/B0011DTY2U/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1357664018&sr=1-1&keywords=AVS-17[/URL]

----
Air shock back down to $292, at Ahmazon
...you know those Tokico's on Ahmazon are a good price, but say 1 to 2 months shipping...I wonder how accurate that is...coming from Asia I guess...
---
this weekend my white one lost pressure in the LH front shock..then the tire went flat! time for ne suspension!...and a tire

 

[dnsherrill]

Not 2nd rate. They are NIB just like autopartstomorrow has or had. That's being said so you'll jump at those $435 air shocks. $723 was enough for me, I ain't paying $870 + shipping of around $40 but I do recommend Eddies compressors all day long.

rebirth old thread:
---
I located both front air shocks for a fair price; I'm thinking about pulling the trigger.
A mechanic friend of mine asked me why I would pay good money for those: they may be unused but Ford stopped making them years ago- so they've been sitting on the shelf somewhere...dry rotting?
Is he making a valid point?
When did Fomoco stop making front air shocks for Mark VIII's? Even if they are unused, are they just new old stock?