Dyno results in with video!

[LaserSVT]

This is where I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you. With only BBK LT's, orh, Borla catback, cai, dyno tune and aluminum flywheel my 2V GT put out the numbers in my sig. They too are supposed to run mid 220's stock with a manual. I picked up 50RWHP!! The only difference between my GT and Lincoln was the headers and orh. Other than that same mods are on both.

Keeping that in mind 4v's are supposed to respond better to mods. If my car is supposed to put out 285lbs tq & 280hp stock which equates to 228 wtq & 224 whp.

An LSC has 295lbs tq and 290hp which equates to 236lbs tq & 232whp. The only difference motor wise between the two is the dual exhaust. I not only did a dual exhaust but I deleted the third resonator/cat and put straight thru mufflers on which lessen restriction. Right there I should have been a tick higher than the LSC numbers. Not much, but a hp or two.

Then add a tune onto that with the filter and that should have picked up an additional 10hp & 10tq at the wheels. Some may call BS, but my stang picked up MUCH more with a simple tune with a dyno sheet to back those numbers up. Again a 4v is supposed to respond better to mods than a 2v so the numbers I figured were conservative expectations.

So that should have put me close to the 250whp & 250wtq range. Something is definitely off.

Maybe the fact the run was at 94% may have changed things with a 55% humidity. Also it says 0 SAE smoothing so is that why the numbers are low?

Regardless my car should have put out better numbers than a stock LSC since it has more mods.....plain and simple.

See I agree with you too on this. I was trying to point out that a 2v with the following mods:
K&N FIPK Gen II CAI
HiTech Stage II cams
Magnaflow Magnapacks
MRT SS Catted H pipe
FRPP 3.73 gears
Ford motor sport aluminum drive shaft
SCT XCalibrator 2 with a 93 oct tune by Chris at EFI logics
RPM series C&L Plenum and PRO Products 75mm TB
Steeda U/D pullies

Through a 4r70 that car made 280rwhp. It seems to me that a 4V Mark with a full 2.5" catback, tune and intake should make the same fly wheel HP (or more) as that 2V with all its mods.
I dont see an IRS absorbing any more power but guess the drive shaft may eat a couple more HP. It seems to me that the Mark should be able to do the 300 rwhp if the cats were gone, underdrive pullys, 3/4 long tubes, double x pipe, cat back, CAI, MAF and a Cobra plenum. Help it out with a one piece drive shaft and a J-mod/fresh fluid change trans to help reduce friction and it just seems like its in reach.
Again I know a Mark is not a Stang but damit my 96 Cobras engine was only a 15 hp difference from the factory and with h-pipe, cat back, filter, chip and degreed cams it did 299 rwhp. If I take the initial 15 hp off of that and then figure the auto absorbes another 20 hp then to me that says a Mark with the same mods should do 264 rwhp...... crap, now that I do the math like that I guess it would be hard to get another 36 rwhp with just under drives, headers, CAI, better drive shaft and a dedicated custom tune. It would prolly only be 290ish rwhp....... damn, now I wana do a T-56 swap. :lol:

I understand there not being a bunch of 13 second Marks out there but there are not allot of Marks out there with long tubes, cobra plenums and custom tunes eaither.

 

[Bouncer88]

1. Cobra intake cams are a lot more aggressive
2. Cobra intake manifold is a lot better
3. Stock Cobra exhaust manifolds are better
4. Stock cobra exhaust better in general
5. Huge drivetrain loss with Mark VIII platform

Stock Mark VIII's will dyno 220-230rwhp and Stock 96-98 Cobra dyno 255-265rwhp.

Is that true? If so why don't more people swap them out?

 

[98LSC32V]

Of course it's true, why would I post it if it wasn't? To answer your question, because it's not worth it to dig into the motor for an extra 10rwhp in the upper rpms when you can get that easier other wise...

 

[Bouncer88]

Of course it's true, why would I post it if it wasn't? To answer your question, because it's not worth it to dig into the motor for an extra 10rwhp in the upper rpms when you can get that easier other wise...

That makes sense, I guess I will just have to be the one to swap em in then.

 

[LaserSVT]

I have been searching and searching but cant find the specs. I have heard on numerous occasions (with no supporting evidence) that the Mark VIII and the 96 Cobras share the same cam. I do know the 97-98 Cobra cam is just slightly different from the 96 and that before companies were making good 4V cams that the guys in the 4Vdrag racing scene were usually running a Teksid block, 03/04 Cobra heads, 01 Cobra plenum and 96 Cobra cams cause the 96 cams provided the most N/A hp.

Anyonehere know where I can find the stock cams specs on 96-98 Cobras and Marks?

 

[driller]

If Cobra's with our engines put out waaay better numbers why do ours lack so much?

Intake, exhaust manifolds and transmission are the big three I would point to. I think the cams are different? They both have IRS but they are different as well.

I know the guys who have Cobra intakes, headers and manual transmissions in a Mark VIII don't complain.

 

[ripped camel]

Intake, exhaust manifolds and transmission are the big three I would point to. I think the cams are different? They both have IRS but they are different as well.

I know the guys who have Cobra intakes, headers and manual transmissions in a Mark VIII don't complain.

Damn you driller.....now the mod bug has bitten me harder!

Cobra intake...here I come!

 

[98LSC32V]

96-98 Cobra cams are the same... the Cobras have more aggressive intake cams, while the Mark cams have a higher lift on the exhaust side...

 

[XLRVIII]

You can disagree but I am only stating my experience and observations.

and I absolutely agree with what you said.

Consider the 10-15 Mark 8's I've seen on the dyno that were stock HP between 180-237. that's a 40HP swing!

Without a proper baseline, you could have gained 40, or 4.. who knows.


The LSC exhaust is not where the 10 extra hp comes from
The FASTEST first gens are 93's and none of them had the so called benefit of that farce of an exhaust on the LSC's.

Since all we can do is guess, I can guess you probably picked up 15ish HP.. maybe 5 more.. but certainly no more than that.



Consider this...

if you had a car that had a 10/1 AF ratio and you leaned it out to 11/1 AF ratio, how much HP do you think you'd pick up on a 280HP motor?
2-3% maybe?

 

[ripped camel]

and I absolutely agree with what you said.

Consider the 10-15 Mark 8's I've seen on the dyno that were stock HP between 180-237. that's a 40HP swing!

Without a proper baseline, you could have gained 40, or 4.. who knows.


The LSC exhaust is not where the 10 extra hp comes from
The FASTEST first gens are 93's and none of them had the so called benefit of that farce of an exhaust on the LSC's.

Since all we can do is guess, I can guess you probably picked up 15ish HP.. maybe 5 more.. but certainly no more than that.



Consider this...

if you had a car that had a 10/1 AF ratio and you leaned it out to 11/1 AF ratio, how much HP do you think you'd pick up on a 280HP motor?
2-3% maybe?

Yeah that makes sense. I figured I'd pick up about 20. But yeah I should have got a baseline run. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

If my A/F is in the 13 range though should I toy with it at all or is it spot on?

 

[XLRVIII]

If my A/F is in the 13 range though should I toy with it at all or is it spot on?

Like KK said, a tailpipe sniffer..who knows.

There could be a .5 to a full 1 point error in AF readings at the tailpipe AFTER the cats, since combustion is still occuring IN the cats and still happening further down the exhaust pipe.

I'd get a WB02 in place of one of the stock sensors and then take it to the dyno and figure out "how much difference" there is between the actual AF and what the tailpipe sniffer is telling you.

THEN you'll know what ball park your playing in.

most dyno operators know this variance.. and can mentally "account for it"..which might have been why he said it was OK.

A NA car usually makes best HP somewhere between 12 and 13 AF.

 

[driller]

96-98 Cobra cams are the same... the Cobras have more aggressive intake cams, while the Mark cams have a higher lift on the exhaust side...

Now wait a minute... How is "more aggressive intake cams" and "higher lift on the exhaust side" the same cams???

 

[LaserSVT]

He was saying the COBRAS from 96098 have the same cam in response to my earlier statement. Now I know thats not true though. IDK what the difference is but the 96 cam is just a tad different then the 97-98 cams. Its better for N/A power andmy old 96 was proof to that.
Tomorrow I will dig up the article of the fastest 4v N/A guys from one of the Stangmags I have. I think they say why the 96Cobra cam was the cam of choice.
As to the Mark I had just assumed it was the same as a Cobra cam because the power difference is only 15 hp and I can see the plenum and exhaust on the Mark are the restrictions.
Also there are prolly 12 guys on Stangnet with a Mark motor in their 96-98 Cobras after blowing the stock motor and only one changed his cams for a custom grind. The one dude with a Mystic was making 288 rwhp and with the Mark VIII motor (everything else was identical) he made 291. The Mark motor was as it came from the yard just with the Cobra plenum. :shrug:

 

[AbrahamLincoln]

4050 huh, my car with me in it is at 4180, i took out my huge system and bottle which probably saved me a good 80 lbs, so weight must not be terribly bad, i just need to lose some weight! 13 sec marks happen with high stall and good driver (whos not too heavy!) because with my numbers i should be getting better times. I think or maybe i'm wrong. I'm learning how to get this car faster because i was just punching it off the line not even holding the brake. I notice that my car inches a bit when you let off the brakes a decent ammount so the time its taking my foot to go from the brake to the gas im losing time. I also had the system and bottle in there last time i ran. I never let it cool down either, consistantly 14.6@95 - 255/254 - 4.10s and 02 mustang gt trans, I kept it in drive, i can gate shift but i don't know if that would be better or worse, not sure what the torque converter does when im doing it that way. I think I am going to head out to the track tonight and see what I can do by improving my driver skills. My car seems wayy faster when i first let her warm up maybe for about 4 minutes or so then after its been on for some time... I don't know if its because of my cone filter or what but the heat sure makes it fall on its face. My temp guage is never really high since i have the fans setup for the 160 degree t stat. but i think its the engine heat soak that surrounding the cone filter. I had it routed down in the fender but it would get dirty awfully quick, and my tuner said that it really doesn't do anything to put it down there or if its in the engine because the air being heated up inside the motor. I was all about modding the intake to snorkel it but he assured me he dynos this stuff all the time and that the less restrictive is the way to go but routing the intake into the fender makes no difference he said? When I have some money i'm going to get a new mafs (stock) because i believe mines just getting a bit old, I can tell when i clean it with the mafs cleaner it responds a lot better - and sometimes i'll feel the timing be pulled when im locked in a gear at light throttle going through the rpms.

I like your intake driller, I would like to do something like that but I guess I would have to redyno it to calibrate for the bends in the tubing and also the new mafs. I wold be interested if you took off your intake snorkal and dynoed it with the cone just in the engine bay with heat shield what track numbers/ dyno numbers you'd see.

The fact remains you don't know what YOUR car's numbers were before the mods.

I revert back to my statement that if it were that easy to get 260 RWHP there would be a LOT more 13 second Mark VIIIs out there. The fact is there are a lot of Mark VIIIs with chips, cat-back exhausts and any air filter setup you could think of that will never come close to those type of dyno numbers and even less that can do a sub 14 seconds in the 1/4 mile.

You can disagree but I am only stating my experience and observations.

 

[Rich88LSC]

96-98 Cobra exhaust cams are the same. The intake cams are different. I am not 100% on how much different talking to a few people I believe the Mark intake cams are retarded a few degrees to help move the powerband down in a heavier car, but have the same lift/duration figures.

 

[XLRVIII]

^
+1
that is the closest to the actual information as your probably going to find.

the cam durations and lifts are the same, the mark 8 has a different cam timing, intake or exhaust I cant remember

 

[Rich88LSC]

I spoke to Max about this in the past when deciding about what I was going to do with cams. He could not verify specs but did verify the exhaust was the same and intake was different.

With that everyone I spoke to that seemed to have a clue(including Tommy)and not just spitting out stuff then read on a forum or what not was that cam timing was the only difference.

 

[ripped camel]

Heat soak will affect your cone filter after a few runs. When Steeda ran testing they would get better et's with short ram intakes but after a few runs the car lost most of it's power. The cold air intakes or fenderwell intakes were better in the fact they were consistent with numbers and really didn't experience heat soak like short ram intakes...however the short ram would put out better et's that would best the cai's for the first few runs.

Cliffs notes......

Short ram = fastest et's but only for a few runs
cai or fenderwell intake = better than stock et's, slower than short rams but more consistent in multiple use applications with no cool down periods than short rams.

 

[LaserSVT]

96-98 Cobra exhaust cams are the same. The intake cams are different. I am not 100% on how much different talking to a few people I believe the Mark intake cams are retarded a few degrees to help move the powerband down in a heavier car, but have the same lift/duration figures.

Thanks and you are correct. I found a two year old article in MM&FF with a 99 Cobra racing in the N/A modular class and that is what the engine builder said. He said the intake cam was different and made less power below 2500 rpm but since his engine spends most of its time at 7000 rpm i makes better power then any of the later factory cams. He also said something about their being a benefit to cleaning the cam saying the 96 cams are kinda ruff between the lobes. I assume he means to grind off the ruff area and balancing but that seems like allot of work for what cant be more then a horse or two. Then again I guess with all the rules in that class every little bit helps.


Thanks for the Mark info too. I had always thought the Mark had the same cams but didn't know they were retarded.
Makes me wonder two things. Is the intake cam similar to the 96 Cobra intake cam or is it like the 97-98 ones. The other thought is since they are retarded a couple degrees then a cam adjuster may offer a worthwhile improvement. Anyone install them on a 4V before and see a decent gain?

 

[Rich88LSC]

You might be able to advance the intake cams with clearances in keyways. If not Cobra guys have opened up the keyways enough to change timing as necessary for there combo and use ARP bolts without issues. I have heard a lot of negative about adjustable cam gears for the 4Vs. Haven't tried either myself though.

There is definitely power in degreeing the cams. Typically advancing the intake will add a little power but move the powerband up. However there is enough slop in the timing setup on these motors that degreeing to factory specs can usually find somepower in itself.

 

[XLRVIII]

Advancing the cams moves the peak HP lower in the RPM's
Retarding the cams moves the peak HP higher in the RPM's.

usually it's worth "no gain" in HP it just moves the peak.

on my SVO we retarded the cam, because the car had NO bottom end, so rather than advancing the cam and hurting the top end, we retarded the cam and FOCUSED on Top end HP.

 

[htrdlincoln98]

I've also heard that about 3 degrees + or - is in the key way. I believe using a compression tester will get the most out of the set up. Higher the compression the better. This was in a write in MMFF. The builder would move the gears all the way both ways and see which had higher compression and thats what was best. For people that don't have all the tools. Never done that myself but there is a little power to be had in adjustments.

 

[lsc8]

Is the intake cam similar to the 96 Cobra intake cam or is it like the 97-98 ones. The other thought is since they are retarded a couple degrees then a cam adjuster may offer a worthwhile improvement. Anyone install them on a 4V before and see a decent gain?[/QUOTE]

I have 96 cobra cams, but the cost of changing cams/hp gain is to much imho. If your trying for hp numbers by a cam swap just buy a set of c heads and be done.