Re-Pin or Re-Wire???? Your Opinion Matters...

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

I have a dilemma, I have a 96 Lincoln Mk8, The trans has Sh!t the bed...
I have aquired a used but lower milage 98 Transmission and want to transplant this into my 96. According to all of my research and Some SPOON Feedings, I have determined that the TCC solenoids and other solenoids, are of the same Ohms rating of the 98 (increased resistance started in 96) older transmissions were 3-5 ohm resistance so They DO require a rewire. anyway, Seems to be 2 Trains of thought on my perticular install.

1. Rewire the transmission to utilize my correct year TCC solenoid as well as all other Solenoids, and re-use the Wiring harness thus no re-pin required as its direct plug and play, This also does mean that because I have a failure of these solenoids in my 96 I can not reuse them and would also have to purchse new Solenoids to ensure they are not a weak point in the upgrade. ( I know they normally do not fail but I dont want to take any chances) Also additional costs of 150.00 on top of the already 500.00 for the used Trans, 120.00 for o-ring, and J-modded seperator plate and filter and all gaskets and seals.

2. Re-Pin the external harness, This would allow me to reuse the known good solenoids already installed in the transmission. I already have the pinout and know which wires to move in the harness, and been told literally 10-15 min of additional work. However the other problem is, This method can cause a ECU Failure if the pins are not correctly setup. Can also cause a solenoid failure if not correctly configured. I cant think of any other reason that this option would be bad IF properly done, Can you?

Which method would you use? Its crunch time as I have all new seals and everything I need to complete this job. I need to know which method is the most preferred, If anyone has the pictures or Pinout already documented that I can match to mine that I hand drew on paper, I would love to match them up to make double sure I have done it correctly.
Thanks
Bill Rice

 

[fastmark1993]

I'd rewire so you have new solenoids and j mod and such and know they are good for another 60k at least

 

[kustomizingkid]

Rewire... that way you know you have the proper solenoids and you can't mess up by re-pinning wrong... I've done 3 now and done all three the rewire way it is easy and works well.

 

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

DOES ANYONE HAVE A DONOR HARNESS????

I'm really trying to keep this cost effective, The biggest obstical is the internal harness, If I had that I would probably already have this done. My issue is this besides having to fork out the cash for the new Solenoids, I have to waste the extra time at the shop which causes the labor to increase causing the total bill to increase. Time=Money as they say.

ANYONE got one? Something from a scrapped trans...
Thanks
Bill

 

[kustomizingkid]

Pull it out of your car?

 

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

Pull it out of your car?

AS I have to drive my car to the shop i wont be able to pull this out prior to getting there.. thus increasing the cost. I'm really trying my best to keep total costs down..
Thanks brandon, I'm trying to avoid aditional cost here. got one? a loaner maybe? I can even send one back to you after I swap out the trans...
Let me know if anyone has one and willing to loan it out..
Thanks
Bill
P.S. I'd be willing to buy one or if you have one laying around, please send it my way.thanks
Bill

 

[NoLimit95]

Bill, are you helping with any of this at all or just paying complete shop cost to have it all done? If you are helping, the harness and solenoids can be swapped by yourself while the other person is dealing with your valve body and getting the new gaskets & separator plate in. Your only time consumption is going to be the trans pressure solenoid which requires you to remove the gear selector out of the way to replace that one solenoid. After that, it's all down hill from there. That 98 black plastic wiring harness just snaps right out and all the solenoids from the 96 pop right in place with the exception of maybe 15 minutes of time doing the pressure solenoid which is easy but does take a little bit of time to do.

Some pics below when I was doing my pressure solenoid.

Once the solenoids are in place, your harness from the 96 just plugs in like a plug in the wall. Nothing to it. Takes every bit of 2 minutes to plug it into all solenoids. Try testing the solenoids to make sure they're reading right. If they aren't bad, don't go and blow money on new ones. It's unlikely that any are bad. Just my thoughts.

 

[BAD97LSC]

i have a bad 97 trans i could take the harness out of but its not like i got all kinds of free time, terry asked me in a text if i could help and i could, but the problem is you would be playing the waiting game, i like to help people out when i can but i dont have time to go rip a trans apart right now to get the harness out, working a fulltime job takes away all my personal time now.

 

[DLF]

If re-pinning is good enough for JW to recommend it, why not?

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page16.shtml

 

[Necrosan]

Re-pin it.
I'll say that one more time - re-pin it.
(Why would anyone NOT re-pin it? Especially if the diagrams have been proven to be correct)

 

[BAD97LSC]

me personally would do the internals, you have to go in the trans anyway, fluid has to be changed, j-mod requires dropping the valve body, you are already inside it, whats 10 more minutes of work? thats just me, thats how i have done them, thats how i'll continue, its simply something that works for me, but, do whatever the hell ya want lol!
i got a harness for bill but i wont be able to ship it until monday since i cannot remove it till this weekend. but if he re-pins someone better let me know long before i tear a trans apart.

 

[NoLimit95]

Re-pin it.
I'll say that one more time - re-pin it.
(Why would anyone NOT re-pin it? Especially if the diagrams have been proven to be correct)

This coming from someone that didn't know the VSS wire wasn't needed for an AVIC-D3 install.

That's the problem.... They haven't always been proven correct and people that don't know what they're doing and have never done it before have fried internal parts inside transmissions because they thought they did know what they were doing. It might be ok right at first and then 5 miles down the road you find yourself stuck in 2nd gear. If Jerry himself was re-pinning, then I might trust it but still prefer the internal swap.

Swapping internals is too easy not to do and it has been proven to me personally, by myself and many others. It works and you are already inside it. How much harder can it be to pull 3 solenoids and replace them with the 96 solenoids? Put in the 96 wiring harness that is pinned correctly and then you have a plug and play transmission. I have yet to see a bad story on internal swapping but have seen them with re-pinning.

Do you have pics of your re-pin?

Would the re-pin be guaranteed?

I would guarantee my internal swap for one year if I done one for someone.

 

[Necrosan]

This coming from someone that didn't know the VSS wire wasn't needed for an AVIC-D3 install.

VSS is necessary if you don't want it to suck (ie, place you in the middle of a lake) in the boonies.
Sorry man, you're dead wrong. But this is OT.

Coming from an electrical background - re-pinning seems to be the easiest way to accomplish swapping a 98 in. But if he's doing J-mod and other stuff, it really won't matter as it's coming apart anyway.

 

[NoLimit95]

VSS is necessary if you don't want it to suck (ie, place you in the middle of a lake) in the boonies.
Sorry man, you're dead wrong. But this is OT.

Coming from an electrical background - re-pinning seems to be the easiest way to accomplish swapping a 98 in. But if he's doing J-mod and other stuff, it really won't matter as it's coming apart anyway.

Why would I have my Mark in the middle of a lake? Your last sentence makes perfect sense.

 

[Necrosan]

Why would I have my Mark in the middle of a lake? Your last sentence makes perfect sense.

In my prior car (cadillac eldorado) I installed the AVIC-D3 (from 2007, purchased new) _WITHOUT_ connecting the VSS wire (you know, like you recommend.)

When driving through the middle of wisconsin, the GPS would not place me on the road. Constantly would put my "location" off the side of the highway, in lakes, forests etc. Tunnels also really messed it up.

Called Pioneer up because like most others recommended me, you "shouldn't" need the VSS wire. They explained that with the VSS wire disconnected the GPS will _NEVER_ accurately report your location if you lose signal from a GPS satellite, and to try connecting the VSS wire appropriately and see if it clears up the issue.

Here's the best part, NoLimit - I did just that, and I bet you can guess what happened.

My GPS now represents my actual location. I'm no longer "driving through lakes" in the boonies anymore. Coincidence or VSS wire? Hmmm......

Just want to thank you for trying to insult my intelligence though.

Sorry OP for treading off topic so far. Thank NoLimit =P

 

[LaserSVT]

Rewire. Its easier.

 

[NoLimit95]

Here's the best part, NoLimit - I did just that, and I bet you can guess what happened.

My GPS now represents my actual location. I'm no longer "driving through lakes" in the boonies anymore. Coincidence or VSS wire? Hmmm......

Just want to thank you for trying to insult my intelligence though.

Sorry OP for treading off topic so far. Thank NoLimit =P

You may be intelligent with the AVIC-D3 & VSS wire aspect because I'm not and I'll admit that but recommending something dealing with a transmission swap where you have had no experience isn't intelligent. That information was posted 10 years ago and has been proven to leave people stranded, stuck in 2nd gear, burned up solenoids, no reverse and why? Because they thought they knew what they were doing "when they re-pinned." I promise I'm not here to fight with you and the OP isn't going to care about this being off topic. All he wants right now is an internal wiring harness so that he can do what's going to work and make it easier to do the trans swap and to save valuable time. GPS does you no good when the car stops moving.

 

[keatonsdad]

If it was my car I'd rewire it the cost of having the trans removed again would be enough of a deterrent for me to not repin it. You say your looking to prevent unnecessary expiences well if you fry the electronics in the trans or the ecu well there goes your 10 min you tried to save by repinning the harness. Just rewire it, reuse your old harness it will help you to know how to reinstall it in the new trans by showing you how it comes apart. But that's if I was the one forking over the cash.



As for the vss guy. I have never had a problem with my d3 placing me in a lake or forest it's just as accurate as my tom-tom. The head unit might just be pissed that it got put into a caddy

 

[Necrosan]

The head unit might just be pissed that it got put into a caddy

Made me smile =P

 

[m_maker]

Why is this even a poll ? There is only one answer to this question.

If you blew up your ECU after not being able to follow a simple wiring diagram, then you shouldn't be working on it in the first place. Even with the tccoa diagram (where one picture is reversed) you should be able to understand the pin positioning. There is no magic about it.

Please make sure you either replace your radiator, or flush the cooler and lines with proper cleaners prior to installing this new transmission.

 

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

If it was my car I'd rewire it the cost of having the trans removed again would be enough of a deterrent for me to not repin it. You say your looking to prevent unnecessary expiences well if you fry the electronics in the trans or the ecu well there goes your 10 min you tried to save by repinning the harness. Just rewire it, reuse your old harness it will help you to know how to reinstall it in the new trans by showing you how it comes apart. But that's if I was the one forking over the cash.

Ok, Let me try to clear this up,
I have a trans thats going bye bye NOTE... In most cases, you would not have to pull the entire trans out, you would have to drop the pan and replace the solenoids and re-pin the harness again. (Worst case senario)
that being said, I have a 98 trans that is in good condition I just aquired,
There are 2 trains of thought on this. 1 is to re-pin which on TCCoA, seems to be the way to go and according to Jerry is also very acceptable. (has its draw backs too) Dont screw it up.

2 is the re-Wire, easiest I will admit and since this is almost idiot proof in this matter, it is more then likely where I am going to do.

HOWEVER!!!
The purpose of the inital posings, and yes I have a few about my trans started here, WAS and Still is, I have an issue with Labor . I have to ask for someones help, and the labor rate that was agree'd apon was 250.00 to do a basic 1 for 1 swap, I am under the impression that even with my assistance, if there is any additional work that is needed that price will go up based upon what additional work is required. So in example, a re-pin or re-wire is needed to complete this task, it take more time on the lift to complete ( I agree not a bunch of time but enough for this person to increase his charge.) SO what I'm trying to do is head off anything outside of a 1 to 1 swap. That means, I am replacing everything on the trans my self prior to someone getting the trans. I have a New plate already drilled for the J-mod from RobertP on TCCoA, new accumulators, new springs, new tailshaft and input (TC) seals, new manual shift linkage seal. trans filter, and pan gasket. Everything without labor so far totaling 480, for trans shipped, 120. for j-mod and kit, accumulators, 80.00 for 3 seals, and 3 gallons of MercV, and what ever I'm going to have to pay for Labor.

Now to re-pin, my expenses are done.
To re-Wire, I would have to WAIT until I got the car on location for the trans swap and This will undobtably cause the labor rate to increase so I can then assemble the trans with the harness out of the older trans, and then I would also have to install new solenoids, and then the new J-mod Plate and gaskets. This will take more time. Keep in mind, MY TRANS IS GOING... I dont trust any of the internal components in my OLD trans. I would be silly to re-use the interal solenoids. This now Means that I have to shell out another aditional 150.00 in Parts for 3 more solenoids. So grand total for a 98 4R70W trans to get it 1 to 1 install is somewhere in the range of (without Labor) 830.00 and thats not installed. The other Item I really wanted to change since this all has to come out anyway was the U-Joints on the D/S.
Now I am not sure how this person wanted to do this, but I look at this in this light, if your doing this to give me a break and asking for my help in doing the work, why would you charge me more for doing work on my own unless your looking at the amount of time the car will be in your garage.

I have had 2 people offer to do the work for me free of charge, I appreciate this. Unfortunatly you are way too far away for me to chance driving the car to you. even to tow it to you would not be productive. now if someone on here has a garage and would not mind donating a day to help remove this then by all means please step up and offer it. I would not mind paying something for your time either. I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot here but everyone keeps asking why I dont take the harness out and I hope to have resolved this once and for all.
I'm trying to lessen the burden on the person who does the install as well as to try and minimize the impact on the wallet as I really only had 500.00 when I started this task as its being forced upon me. I'm way over already especially if I added the Solenoids. This point is also mute, if I dont get a harness I will have to pay the extra and suck it up. Just hope that person understands at the time that I've tried to do everything prior. If the trans goes completely, I have no option but to attempt the re-pin if I havent had the harness by then, I also need to sure up who is doing the install. I feel the time is VERY limited at this point, and continuing to drive the 84 mile round trip everyday is also not helping, and that being said, My kidneys are being vibrated to death here.
Thanks for all the comments and the pics poiinting out how simple the swap actually is... Understand I'm sucking in as much infor as I can. I'm extremely mechanically inclinded.I've done transmissions before, I move to a house that has a one car driveway that is outside and I have no Garage to provide shelter from elements and no heat either so doing this on my back in the driveway in the winter.. Ummm lets just say Not the best and ideal conditions. This is why I'm looking at the labor... Preferably someone with a lift in the garage.

Thanks and enjoy your day.
Bill Rice
If anyone would like to contact me directly
Bill (AT) TheRices (Dot) net
TWO 1 Five- Five 2 eight - three 9 Zero 4 (C)

 

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

OK finally got this nailed down..
I have spoken with Doug, (DLF) and were a go.
I am going to do the RE-Pin method. We have the documentation and are confident enough to be able to verify wiring and handle the j-mod. we have hashed out whats expected and what can be done in the time frame alotted. its an extremely fair deal and I thank him for his gracious offer for helping me.
Any little things that need to be addressed along the line are going to be delt with and Its not going to break the bank so to speak. this will also save me from having to get additional parts. will also allow me to use the newer style trans in the future should (and I hope not for a very long time) the need arrise again.

Thanks again to All who inputted their opinion and Information provided.
This topic is Closed!

Mod, Please lock this out.

 

[DLF]

If re-pinning is good enough for JW to recommend it, why not?

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page16.shtml

FYI, The lower diagram in this article is reversed.

 

[96_Lincoln_LSC]

Updated Pinout for 96 to 98 Trans 4R70W

below is an image attached for the pinout.
This is just incase someone either wants to correct me or maybe can use this for their reference.

 

[LaserSVT]

So just so I have this right. You started a thread asking which way to go. You added a poll and said our opinion counts. The leader in the poll is very clearly showing rewire was the more popular choice. Even in the people that posted its a 6 to 3 in favor of rewire.

So in essence, our opinions DONT matter and the poll was a complete waste of time. Superb.