Can you drop oil pan (to change bearing) with engine in car?

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RocketScientist

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Hey guys,

I've been having symptoms of what I think is a bearing knock. Once the car gets warmed up, it starts making a knocking noise at idle and part throttle, and after a few minutes won't idle (will just stall). I got under the car last night and it looks like there *MIGHT* be enough room to drop the oil pan without pulling the engine. If so, I was hoping to do that, plastigage to find which bearing(s) is/are bad, and swap them out. Yes I know I should do a full bottom-end rebuild, do it the right way, etc. But I am on a budget, both money and time, and doing it the half-assed way is something that will get me back on the road in a weekend and won't break the bank.

What I'm asking is if anyone has done this before, or something similar requiring dropping the oil pan with the motor in the car. It looks like it might be possible, but its pretty tight quarters up in there. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!


FYI - '98 Mark VIII LSC
 
How difficult is it to pull the k-member? I have the factory service manual, and done extensive auto work on various other cars (motor rebuilds, suspension rebuilds, "frame-off" resto, etc.) but this is my first FoMoCo, and only had it about a year so still familiarizing myself. Thanks for the feedback!
 
RocketScientist said:
Thanks again NoLimit... really appreciate the quick response. Looks do-able. Not exactly fun, but do-able.
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Sapperfire and LaserSVT done all the work you see in that thread. They probably have dropped a K-Member 20 times, doing various things. Sapper could tell you step by step almost on how to go about dropping it. I knew they had done it enough to round up a link with pics for you but I'm sure there are more to find.
 
GMAN said:
That's a lot of work to try to solve a problem, that really sounds like a new motor is needed.
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If you're offering to pay for a whole new motor for my car, I'll be more than happy to accept. I can PM you the routing number for my bank if you’d like. Otherwise, spending $1-200 bucks on a set of bearings and a weekend under the car is something I can actually afford that gets me a car to drive for awhile longer. As I said in the post, I know this isn't the 'right way' or the best solution. But it's one I can do myself within my budget.

Also, don't discount the durability of shade-tree repairs. A few years back my daily driver was a Buick Grand National. I had a fuel injector issue that caused me to melt a hole through one of the pistons. As I had limited facilities and limited budget (college kid at the time) and it was my only car, with the engine still in the vehicle I popped the cylinder head and pulled the rod/piston. I used an old ‘bottle-brush’ or ‘dingleberry’ hone on the cylinder bore and put in a used good piston/rod with fresh rings and appropriately oversized bearings. Everyone on every forum I posted on for help swore up and down it would never work… that the new bearings would spin, that the now rings would never mate and seal properly on the cylinder, that I’d throw so much grit/debris in the engine with the hone that it’d trash every other bearing in there. But by being careful, tidy, and meticulous, I have had no problems. Since then the car has seen almost another 60k miles, and at least a hundred or so sub-13 second ¼ mile passes at full throttle and 18+ psi of boost. Never had an oil pressure issue, compression issue, etc.

So is swapping out just the bearings the best solution? No. But if I’m careful, check clearances, take my time and do my homework will it be a workable solution for a tiny portion of the cost of a new engine? I certainly believe so.
 
First I'd like to ask.. who and why condemned the bearings?
Not all noises from the motor are the bearings.. could be other things, Lasers 98 made a terrible noise was CPS reluctor ring cracked. My 93 shed the plastic off the timing chain guide rails, sounded like the engine was eating itself just behind the timing cover...
 
Sapperfire said:
First I'd like to ask.. who and why condemned the bearings?
Not all noises from the motor are the bearings.. could be other things, Lasers 98 made a terrible noise was CPS reluctor ring cracked. My 93 shed the plastic off the timing chain guide rails, sounded like the engine was eating itself just behind the timing cover...
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I am not sure yet it is bearings... this is a new problem I've just started looking in to. I was basing it off the symptoms. It runs/sounds fine when cold, and for the first 15-20 mins of driving while its warming up. Once up to temp, over the course of about 5 minutes it will go from very light tapping/knocking at idle, to full-on knocking at idle and part throttle, to not being able to idle (knocking terribly and dying when you come to a stop). The oil pressure 'idiot light' will flicker/come on in time with the knocking noise. That is, when its barely audible and only at idle, the light will very lightly flicker, as the knocking becomes worse the light comes on brighter/steadier. If I let the car cool down overnight or for 10 hrs while I'm at work, it starts up fine and begins the whole process over again.

I was thinking as the engine warmed up and tolerances opened, that a marginally loose bearing clearance was becoming too loose to maintain the dynamic oil film, causing the knocking and loss of oil pressure. However, I am not used to diagnosing this car, and most of my experience is with older carb'd/pushrod cars (the GN and this one are the only 'modern' fuel injected cars I've ever owned). I work in the space/defense industry doing R&D for missiles and launch systems, so I am a high-tech minded guy, just don't have much direct knowledge on these cars specifically. So what I'm saying is if the experts think my diagnosis is way off and I should be looking at some other issue, I'm more than willing to listen and learn.

Thanks in advance guys... for my first time posting on this forum, I'm very pleased with the responses and how helpful everyone is. Way to make a guy feel welcome!


Edit - Hoping in the next day or two to bust out my auto stethoscope and see if I can localize the noise source. But for now don't have a specific area. Also, if I pop the oil filler cap off once its warmed up and knocking, there is a little bit of vapor coming out (not sure if smoke or steam). I changed the oil last night (put in a thicker grade to see if that would help any as a bandaid), no signs of water in it. Also no signs of oil in the coolant.
 
Just to make sure I'm not going down a difficult road for no good reason... any ballpark guesses on what a repair like this would cost at an honest shop? Obviously there are big differences from shop to shop, region to region, but anyone have a ballpark guesstimate? Would it be cheaper to have them rebuild the bottom end (bearings, turn crank if needed, etc) or just swap in a new/reman shortblock? I know for a lot of cars there are surprisingly cheap stock-spec remanufactured shortblocks available (all I really need, no plans to hot-rod this car)... but with the lincoln having a version of the aluminum cobra motor, I'm guessing that's not likely an option?

Just trying to figure out what the cheapest option to have someone else do the work for me is and about how much it might run. I'm assuming it would be on the expensive side and make it worth my while to do the work myself. But I don’t like working from incomplete data, and since I’ve never really paid other to do car work for me (other than auto trans rebuilds) I have no idea if this would be a $400 job in a shop or a $2000 job.
 
In this instance a good JY motor would be the easiest/cheapest... In my opinion and I'm a cheap bastard!
 
Do JY and UPAP stnd for JunkYard and U-Pick-And-Pull respectively, or are these specific companies I should be looking at to purchase from? I've had mixed luck pulling mills from a junkyard. Nothing like spending a few hours inspecting and pulling an engine, just to get it back to the shop and find its not as 'pristine' or 'undamaged' as you thought.

Also, what vehicles have a direct replacement short/long block? I know ours use the aluminum block 4v motor very similar to the cobra motor. Will a complete standard iron block 4.6 bolt it? Will an iron shortblock bolt to our Al heads? Or do I need to find another Al motor to pull the short/long block from?

Again, any help is appreciated. It seems like there is a very knowledgeable bunch here, very thankful to be able to learn from your experience rather than the hard way :)
 
yeah U Pick U pull.. but you said youre on a time budget..

Take a fresh battery and a jumper cable for the starter and a compression tester with tools for spark plug removal with you... maybe a can of starter fluid

Iron block 4.6 and aluminum 4.6 are identical other than what they're made of.. would I put an iron block in a Mark - phuck no

Our 4.6 block is a Teksid, 96-98 cobra use the same case but forged 8 bolt main crank
 
The problem is you might do bearings for not. If bearings are shot they will score the crank. New bearings on scored crank ='s more dead bearings. If you have a spun rod bearing you CANNOT just put another bearing in.
 
Right on the Mark said:
The problem is you might do bearings for not. If bearings are shot they will score the crank. New bearings on scored crank ='s more dead bearings. If you have a spun rod bearing you CANNOT just put another bearing in.
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Yeah, I know the crank needs to be examined for scoring. If I do the work myself was gonna mic the crank main and rod journals, ditto for the main and rod bores, go over them with a loupe, etc. In my (limited) experience, a spun bearing will make a hell of a lot more noise and will do it pretty constantly (not just when warmed up). Also will usually show debris in the oil (I didnt see anything significant) .The combination of noise-free cold running, the fact noise does not get appreciably worse when revving from idle to say 1800 rpm, and is accompanied with a sharp drop in oil pressure tells me its likely a main bearing that is marginally loose, not spun. Typically rod bearings make noises that get worse/louder when revved, and usually don't show as much oil pressure drop as a loose main will. And as I mentioned, a totally spun bearing will usually make noise even when cold. Again, this is just based from my experience, if I've got it completely wrong, please feel free to correct me.
 
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