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230 is too high...
I'll have to check that the thermostat is opening and the radiator fins are clear. Hopefully its not water pump.
Actually, the water pump (though unlikely to be the problem) is one of the easier things to replace.
Good to know- thanks! So, I popped the intake tube off and the plastic that goes across the hood latch and blasted water through all the radiators. There were two or three leaves but nothing major. I used a piece of cardboard to clear what I could so I could see to the bottom unobstructed- at least in the area directly in front of the fan blades. Whatever the front-most radiator is for, its fins are pretty mangled from pebbles blasting it over the last 250K. I'm sure its limiting air flow to the other exchangers. Today wasn't quite as warm and humid, but still pretty warm... 80*F. At least 50% RH. The car ran a nominal 212*F after blasting the radiator(s). After my third of three highway merges on my ride to work, it peaked at 218 for a minute or two, then cam back down. The final test was idling at the stop light, then going wot through first gear as I did last time, then pulling off into the parking lot (A/C on the whole time). The engine fan was running on low, and it sped up ever so slightly, then went right back down low. Engine temp stayed right at 212. Maybe a lot of dirt came off that I couldn't see, but it seemed to make a pretty good difference. It seems that 212 is still a touch on the high side but I suspect I can get it to drop more by giving the front exchanger some love and straightening the fins. Looks like a little paint overspray from the bumper work I did too on the main radiator. If I get that off, I might get those last 10 degrees.
I'm running 215°-222° on my 20 mile commute. Same every day. Is it possible the torque lite app combined with a $25 OBD2 scanner is just showing temps a bit higher? Even a 5% tolerance put those temps down to the range JoeGR stated. Temp goes to 219°, drops to 215°. If it hits 222° at a stop light, drops to 215° after resuming driving. Hit 224° once. Even at a long stoplight after a drive uphill, same temps. Gauge of course stays just below center the entire time. And the average temp shown is 215°-217°. Followed all the replacement part tips and the degas procedure to the letter (though it took several attempts to finally start getting air out). Do you think a professional flush and fill is in order? Possible I still have some air in there somewhere?
Pretty even match for me. In fact, off throttle coasting or idling gives me the lowest readings of about 212. Highway cruising, it jumps to about 222. (Side note: intake temps on stock intake are HOT if you're not moving!) Did you pressure test your system? That's the only way to be sure air doesn't get back in after you go through the bother of bleeding. In addition to cleaning the radiator and straightening the fins, I'm going to test the coolant mix to be sure its at least 50% water. I may consider bumping the water ratio up to see if it helps (now that I can see real temps and know if I'm getting near the boiling temp). I frequently change coolant so I'm not too worried about losing the corrosion protection from going more diluted on coolant. I can bump it back up prior to freeze weather.
My 02 runs 206 to 209 in traffic with the ac running in 90 degree weather. It drops to about 204 on the freeway. I monitor mine with a ScanGauge all the time since I rebuilt my cooling system. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cool, thanks for additional data. Stock thermostat, right?
Yes stock thermastat. All motorcraft parts except for the aluminum jag t-stat housing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In the last few weeks I've been running Torque all the time to watch the temperature of my 02 V8. Highway cruising on cool nights are usually 208-217. Traffic on a hot day on a highway with traffic lights or hard acceleration can be anywhere from 212-228 . Coasting (especially with engine braking) produces the lowest temps, about 202-206. AFAIK, I have all original parts (73k miles), with the exception of the thermostat, which came from the junkyard engine (85k miles). I plan on beginning to order the parts soon. It seems strange that the temperature cycles in a constant range over normal temperature. Shouldn't the fan just run a little harder? Or does the fan have some max duration/speed limit in play until it really gets hot? I highly doubt it. The CHT reading to numeric temperature conversion should all be done in the PCM. The dongle and app just read the number the PCM spits out
I'm pretty certain the precision of the PCM reporting is one degree Celsius. The sensors will also have an accuracy rating which I would expect is on the order of 5%. So there's some wiggle room to say the least. If anyone is really worried about precise running temp then they should add a more precise sensor where appropriate. In my testing on the Gen 1 cooling fan control algorithm, it showed a moderate ramp up of fan speed, with something like a 15% floor, ramp starts at roughly 200 degrees and rises to 60-ish% at 236 degrees. 239 degrees triggers max fan. Yes, there's a hard jump from one reading below 239 degrees. Turning on the A/C added roughly 40% to the fan duty cycle. From this I concluded that Ford considers anything under 239 degrees to be OK. This also matches the temp gauge. 236 degrees has the needle in the middle (just like at 200 degrees!), then at 239 the needle starts rising. And the rise isn't necessarily tied directly to the temp either. I think it's more to get attention. I didn't push much beyond 245 or so, as even idling that can get a little toasty. Note that those readings are for the outlet pressure control from the pump. The resulting fan speed probably isn't a direct linear correlation. IMO, if the system isn't loosing coolant, the fan/radiator can maintain a stable operating temp that the PCM considers acceptable, and there's not signs of running issues (pinging, low on power, seized engine), then I think it's operating within design parameters. These engines accept running hotter than engines from the 70's. I would be panicked if my Olds 403 ran over 200 degrees all the time, but it has a vastly different cooling system and cooling demands.
Wanted to update this with a few data logs. I logged other stuff too, but found no correlation between the other pids. Just the generality that my coolant temps would creep up at highway speeds, and at idle would be at 212. The coolant cooled quickly when coasting at highway speed, especially if I downshifted to 3rd to slow the vehicle for traffic. I would see 205ish in that case. It got messy showing all of it at once so I just showed the coolant temp log. The second pic is the ride to work on a mild day, and the first is the ride home on a 95 degree high humidity day.
Minor update, got a replacement thermostat. Here is some data on it... Ford XW4Z8575CA. Rock auto claims 190F in the description. Part is made by Waxstat. Does not come with the seal/o-ring. It says 84C right on it. If this is a temp, it translates to 183F I placed the part in water on the stove and slowly (slower than an engine heats coolant) heat up the water and took pictures along the way to show how far it was open. As for how %open translates to flow across radiator I can't say exactly, but I would guess flow is pretty good at 205F.
Looking at some data logs (without the A/C running). The fan is completely off before 185. The fan duty cycle pid is 10.53% and variable fanspeed is at 9.68%, though there is no fan motion. I was driving while I did this but didn't log speed. The fan seemed to do what it wanted unless you were going over 45mph. Above 185, the duty cycle starts to climb while the variable speed stays put to a certain point. Temp----------------Fan duty cycle 190F----------------10.9% 195F----------------11.2% 200F----------------11.5% 205F----------------11.8% 210F----------------12.2% 215F----------------12.4% 220F----------------12.8% At 225F, the variable speed kicks in, causing the duty cycle to also change. Temp----------Fan Duty Cycle------------Variable Speed 225F----------13.0-19.4-----------------9.68-19.4 228F----------30.5-35.5-----------------35.5-41.9 I think this puts the panic mode around 235 where fans will start screaming full. Having the A/C compressor run does bump up the duty cycle and variable speed. There's some fluctuation for different reasons, but a decent general blanket statement would be that running the compressor adds about 30% to the fan cycle/speed. Since I still have my issue of running "hot" on the highway, running the A/C actually helps move more air across the radiator and it recovers faster when I slow to under 45mph.
With the AC on, fan speed is based on high-side pressure of the AC system, and engine cooling needs. The pressure will depend on the heat load / humidity load from the cabin.
Thank you guys so much, all this information has been incredibly insightful. I'm running around 220, sometimes hitting 235. Going to clean radiator and see if that helps. Definitely some leaves and junk stuck in there. Also have some plastic cooling part BS to deal with, but have been running these temps since before one of the parts sprung a hairline crack.
Question: Has anyone monitoring with an OBD2 scanner seen a significant temp sensor offset reading from ambient when the engine is cold prior to engine start? I've had my scanner plugged in for the past few months since I was monitoring for misfire codes and have been using the dashboard feature to monitor parameters when driving. Cluster temp gauge after warm-up stays at middle line and never goes above. Gauge stays right in the middle while the scanner indicates temps between 190-228F. I've noticed recently that if I start monitoring before engine start, I'm seeing readings that are roughly 13F-14F above ambient. Engine has been off for 12+ hours overnight so there should be no residual heat from the drive home the previous evening. Mid 60s outside temp in the morning and before engine start I'm receiving 80F coolant temp readings. After engine start, temp rises consistently until at around 190F the dash gauge reaches the middle line. I'm going to keep monitoring out of curiosity, especially with summer heat coming up soon. Might as well get some use out of the scanner, never did get a misfire code. Replacing all the remaining OEM COPs cured the random misfire. If my sensor is drifting, at least it's in the better direction to prevent an overheat since the fan speed will kick up earlier. I have an 02 Sport, 3.9 V8, OBDLink MX Bluetooth for Android linked to my Nexus4 phone and monitoring with OBDLink SW.
How would one know if its the water pump? Yesterday after some spirited driving and a 1 hour drive, I pulled into my driveway and just then the fan came on full very quickly on my 2004 V8. I immediately loaded torque app, and saw the coolant was at 230, but began to decline and slowly went back to operating temp. It's done this before on occasion but not recent. No leaks noticed, coolant level seems in the same spot as previously checked. Possible that the water pump is on its way out?
Just food for thought...Have you ever replaced your drive belt? Did you mix the coolant 50/50 correctly ... coolant has relatively little heat capacity; whereas water has very much (near tops) heat capacity- but it's always possible your water pump is close to failing, or you could just have a bad thermostat ...of course it could be time for a new radiator also...the thing is with these LSes as you know is it could be the dreaded micro-cracks in the plastic...for what i know the only way you really know for certain that your water pump is going out is if it's making a whining or grinding sound or you can visually see a leak in the gasket...It's good that you're taking action though because a car that runs hot is taxing on many other parts
I think I'd look at the thermostat, followed by the aux pump.
I have not replaced the drive belt According to the Carfax from when I bought this car sept last year, something was repaired on the coolant system as well as coolant flush was done roughly 28k miles (45k kms) ago by Active Green & Ross Around November, I did notice the coolant level was a little low when temps shot up to 115 Celsius. After topping it up using Premixed OEM Brand (Ford) Gold - I bought from Canadian Tire, I haven't lost any coolant at all. Several mechanics believe it leaked out threw blow out cap. Cars been great since I topped it up, but then, in southern Ontario we saw -15 to -20 Celsius regularly throughout Jan and Feb. My wife took it to town today (30 minute drive) without any issues. We took it to Niagra (2.5 hour drive) couple weeks ago around +5 degrees out, no issues. Just last night it went up to 110 degrees Celsius, then while parked, began to drop.
So I'm guessing its possible the thermostat isn't opening? Is it generally a good idea to replace the thermostat if its old with Motocraft anyways? This could be Original 2004 part.
I would suggest Motorcraft thermostat ... I've had nothing but good luck with them
Yeah that could be the culprit. Case in point, I'm pretty sure my 2004 has the original thermostat and I'm fairly certain that it's stuck open. Just waiting on consistently good weather (or just stop being lazy and clean out my garage!) and I'll be doing a bunch of work on the cooling system.
That right there should tell you how inaccurate the gauge is. If anyone is running around the 230 mark... That usually means there is an issue with the thermostat and or the housing, the coolant mixture, or it has air in it from a leaking plastic part that is failing. If it's not the middle of summer... And the cooling fan sounds like a jet engine even if the gauge is showing normal... Then the vehicle is overheating due to one of the aforementioned issues.