They were Christian missionaries and we killed them all

[Calabrio]

Do you have a copy of the Koran handy in which you would like to make issue with the scriptures? Have you ever read it?

There is a significant difference between owning a book and reading something and genuinely understanding it. I won't doubt that you've read the Koran, it's not a particularly large book so that's a reasonable claim to make, but whether you understood it and the context of what you were reading is entirely different.

When you read it, what order did you read it in? What were your impressions of it? And did you also read the Tafsir and the Ta'wil for clarification?

I have not sat down and read the Koran cover to cover, nor have I read the bible cover to cover. I also do not own a copy of the Koran.

But, if you're well versed in this subject, then why are you constantly refusing to engage and interjecting completely irrelevant things like the tiny Westborough baptist family Church? Let's discuss Islam as best we can.

 

[pektel]

For some reason, this thread comes to mind when I'm reading this:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=44019&highlight=islam

 

[shagdrum]

Westboro baptist church for starters?

Which is based here in Topeka, Kansas. I have grown up around the Phelps, I have worked at jobs with some of the Phelps and have forgotten more about that "church" then you will ever know.

The are not, in any way, a true Christian church. It is simply a monument to Fred Phelps' ego and hatred wrapped in a nice Christian bow.

It is foolish and ignorant to, in any way, equate them with Christian teachings.

As to the point raised in this debate, Fred is not preaching killing of gays. At most, it is extreme shaming of gays. His message is basically gays are all going to hell and God hates America for tolerating homosexuality. However he can apply that message to feed his ego, get him news coverage, and get him money from lawsuits is all fair game.

Phuck Phred.

Incidentally, did you know that Fred is actually a Democrat? He ran for governor a few times (losing in the primary), for mayor of Topeka and for U.S. Senator. He supported AlGore in 1988. One of his sons, Freddy jr. hosted a fundraiser for Gore and was a delegate for Gore at the 1988 Democratic National Convention.

 

[Calabrio]

It's also worth noting just how tiny that "church" really is.
It's like a twisted little family organization, where a great number of the kids have law degrees. There presence and the national awareness of them isn't because they have any influence or because they exist in great numbers. It's because the tiny group of them invest a great deal of time and money into flying around the country to annoy people.

And because the mainstream media has chosen to shine a spotlight on them. Why? Maybe because it's so inflammatory it generates interest and ratings. Maybe it's because they perpetuate the negative image of a southern church that the 'Elites" in Manhattan enjoy showcasing.

For some reason, this thread comes to mind when I'm reading this:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=44019&highlight=islam

Good recall, I completely forgot about that....


I'm

 

[shagdrum]

It's also worth noting just how tiny that "church" really is.

Made up of two families..

It's like a twisted little family organization, where a great number of the kids have law degrees.

I worked with one of his sons, who has a law degree. The guy was exceedingly intelligent and, suprisingly easy to get along with. If you had not known the name you would have no clue about the nutty, narcissistic "religion" he subscribes to.

What always made me laugh was that the guy was the second biggest South Park fan I knew (he even had a large stuffed doll of Cartman in his office). The only bigger South Park fan I knew was an openly gay guy at my previous job.

 

[FIND]

As far as westboro baptist goes.... you guys wanted an example. There are certainly more, that was just the first one that came to mind. Moving the goalposts much? They aren't real christians? So god came down and decided that only Foss could decide who real christians are now? Either way, you wanted an example, you got it, now you complain about it and say that one doesn't count. As I said, moving the goalposts.

KKK.... As I said, they were created as a protestant men's organization for civil war veterans from the south, even in its current iteration, it is an extremely right wing group that advocates protestant thought with its own brand of hate. Taliban is basically the same kind of organization as the KKK. At the height of the KKK's popularity, it had around 4 million members.... Not a tiny organization to say the least. The Taliban, has an estimated 36,000 members, yes considerably more than the current KKK. Of course, not surprising that you want to deny they are a christian organization, As always, deny any facts that don't match YOUR reality.

V-Tally, the point of what I was trying to say in this thread was that you cannot judge the Islamic religion based upon the actions of extremists who pervert the message and teachings for their own purposes.

Cal, you haven't even read the damn book and you claimed to have thoroughly and honestly studied the religion and its practices? Well then tell me, what did you read that gives you so much insight into the religion? I am further amazed that you can seriously make a response like that.... You find out I have read something, that you yourself admit to having never read, but then insist that I do not understand it? What are you basing this on, because it certainly is not a knowledge of the contents of the book. Everything you "know" about that religion is based on fear, bigotry and propaganda apparently. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Though, as I said, you want to discuss Islam, why not give me some FACTS that you have issue with, or maybe some scriptures.

Levitican law was for the Jews - not for Christians. It doesn't coincide with Jesus' teaching.

Try again.

But I thought you said that everything in the bible was meant to be taken at face value? Want me to link you to the thread where you said so?

So it is OK to disregard some of the teachings of the christian church, but not some of the teachings of Islam that were spawned by the environment they lived in?

As far as Hitler not being christian? Well, certainly not a good christian, but if you debunked that, then that is a total denial of history and fact.

 

[fossten]

As far as westboro baptist goes.... you guys wanted an example. There are certainly more, that was just the first one that came to mind. Moving the goalposts much? They aren't real christians? So god came down and decided that only Foss could decide who real christians are now? Either way, you wanted an example, you got it, now you complain about it and say that one doesn't count. As I said, moving the goalposts.

Actually, God said in the Bible that Christians will ACT like Christians. So, it's not me that's deciding this - it's clearly defined in Scripture. Moving the goalposts? Not in the slightest - you just don't know where they are since you have a pitiful understanding of the Bible.

But I thought you said that everything in the bible was meant to be taken at face value? Want me to link you to the thread where you said so?

Yep. And post the quote IN CONTEXT.

Even if I said that, which I'm pretty sure I didn't, that has nothing to do with OT law for the Jews and Christian teaching in the NT. Why don't you read Hebrews and get back to me.

How ironic that you said this to Cal:

Cal, you haven't even read the damn book and you claimed to have thoroughly and honestly studied the religion and its practices?

Maybe you should practice what you preach vis a vis the Bible.

So it is OK to disregard some of the teachings of the christian church, but not some of the teachings of Islam that were spawned by the environment they lived in?

Killing gays is not the teaching of the Christian church, despite your desperate, paranoid ravings to the contrary. It is instructive about you, however, that you seek to make excuses for these monsters who kill people for something as innocuous as drawing a picture of Mohammed. And your favorite argument is moral equivalence, where you seek to attack Christianity as a way to distract from the issue. I always find it interesting that the left, who know that they have no moral foundation, only seek to find and highlight hypocrisy in those who try to live by certain standards. It's a red herring and it's so revealing.

As far as Hitler not being christian? Well, certainly not a good christian, but if you debunked that, then that is a total denial of history and fact.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that it is fact. Link or slink...

 

[shagdrum]

As far as Hitler not being christian? Well, certainly not a good christian, but if you debunked that, then that is a total denial of history and fact.

WTF?!

Where did you come up with this absurd notion? You really have no knowledge of history do you.

Apparently fictional history is fact in your view.

Was Inglorious Basterds a documentary, or somehow based on a true story?

Who was Hitler's Christian mentor, Skelator?

 

[topher5150]

Hitler a Christian???? That guy was so deep into the occult and ancient European pagan worship

 

[Calabrio]

Cal, you haven't even read the damn book and you claimed to have thoroughly and honestly studied the religion and its practices? Well then tell me, what did you read that gives you so much insight into the religion? I am further amazed that you can seriously make a response like that....

Because sitting down and simple reading the Koran will not give you a complete picture of the religion. Because of the way it was it is organized, the way it's been translated, and the necessity to read all of the supporting writings to fully understand it, and the history of the religion during Mohamed life and they way it evolved afterward, sitting down and simply reading one of the translations of the book accomplishes little unless you think it will impress someone else someday. Since you actually sat down and read the entire Koran, cover to cover, and keep a copy in your personal library, you would be well aware of this.

I asked you a number of specific question, you have not answered it.
I have made countless points, you refuse to acknowledge.
This is really getting tiresome.

You find out I have read something, that you yourself admit to having never read, but then insist that I do not understand it?

I haven't insisted anything. You have demonstrated that you don't understand the religion and the culture. And you have not answered the simple, honest questions I asked you about your interpretation.

What order did you read the surahs in the Koran? Did you read the supporting literature with it? Did you have difficulty understanding it? What was your impression of it and the message? What do you think of Mohamed as an individual?

The opportunity to actually DISCUSS it was presented to you. Instead, you've conveniently responded by presenting yet another excuse as to why you feel no need to engage.

What are you basing this on, because it certainly is not a knowledge of the contents of the book. Everything you "know" about that religion is based on fear, bigotry and propaganda apparently.

You can continue to repeat that, but until you can actual discuss or debate any of these points I've made, it has no value.

Thanks for clearing that up for us. Though, as I said, you want to discuss Islam, why not give me some FACTS that you have issue with, or maybe some scriptures.

I have. You've demonstrated that it's inconvenient for you to actual have to address these points or historical facts that I've presented. You lack the intellectual integrity to even demonstrate specifically where my analysis of Islam is incorrect.

 

[hrmwrm]

killing gays god's law

Bradlee dean, may15 radio excerpt

“Muslims are calling for the executions of homosexuals in America,” Dean said. “This just shows you they themselves are upholding the laws that are even in the Bible of the Judeo-Christian God, but they seem to be more moral than even the American Christians do, because these people are livid about enforcing their laws. They know homosexuality is an abomination.”

“If America won’t enforce the laws, God will raise up a foreign enemy to do just that,” Dean said later. “That is what you are seeing in America.”

“The bottom line is this… they [homosexuals] play the victim when they are, in fact, the predator. On average, they molest 117 people before they’re found out. How many kids have been destroyed, how many adults have been destroyed because of crimes against nature?”

so, if the christians won't do it, the muslims will.
all christians?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOYF2Og1nMI&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[hrmwrm]

So god came down and decided that only Foss could decide who real christians are now?

i thought you were aware of that find.
when it's christians being repressed, they're inclusive, and when it's bad of the past, then they are excluded.

it's billions one thread, to a few the next.

 

[hrmwrm]

Hitler a Christian? Really? This has been debunked repeatedly in this forum.

where?

 

[fossten]

i thought you were aware of that find.
when it's christians being repressed, they're inclusive, and when it's bad of the past, then they are excluded.

it's billions one thread, to a few the next.

Yet another assertion that you can't back up. Yawn.

Why don't you just post "Yay!" at the topic of this thread and move on. We all know that's what you meant anyway.

 

[fossten]

Bradlee dean, may15 radio excerpt



so, if the christians won't do it, the muslims will.
all christians?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOYF2Og1nMI&feature=player_embedded#!

Who is Bradlee Dean and why should I care what he says?

 

[shagdrum]

As far as westboro baptist goes.... you guys wanted an example.

No they are not and it is the height of arrogance for you to claim they are when you clearly know nothing about them.

Are you utterly incapable of admitting when you are wrong?

 

[fossten]

No they are not and it is the height of arrogance for you to claim they are when you clearly know nothing about them.

Are you utterly incapable of admitting when you are wrong?

He may be incapable of realizing he is wrong.

 

[foxpaws]

So god came down and decided that only Foss could decide who real christians are now?

Yes FIND, He did - and Foss has decreed that Catholics aren't Christian, Mormons aren't Christian. I am sure many more large organized religious groups don't qualify, like any orthodox group...

The differences between Catholics and other Christian "denominations" such as Presbyterians, Methodists, and Baptists, are so many and so significant as to create a chasm that cannot be bridged. If you take the Bible as authority, virtually every Catholic doctrine is heresy. Therefore, by definition, it cannot be Christianity, since Christianity is based on the Bible.

Note - it is a fascinating thread...

Of course, if you need to prove that Christianity is the world's leading religion, Foss lets them in for that count...

 

[fossten]

Yes FIND, He did - and Foss has decreed that Catholics aren't Christian, Mormons aren't Christian. I am sure many more large organized religious groups don't qualify, like any orthodox group...



Note - it is a fascinating thread...

Of course, if you need to prove that Christianity is the world's leading religion, Foss lets them in for that count...

Tsk tsk, fox...do you have any honest bone in your body? I seriously doubt it. Cute failure to emphasize/bold the correct line - which is "If you take the Bible as authority." Nice try, fox, but I've never claimed any knowledge of Christianity outside what is clearly defined in the Bible. Would you like to discuss its contents? No copy/paste - just what you know versus what I know.

Also, since you just made a claim about me saying that "Christianity is the world's leading religion," I'll have to ask you to prove that I said that or retract it.

 

[foxpaws]

Also, since you just made a claim about me saying that "Christianity is the world's leading religion," I'll have to ask you to prove that I said that or retract it.

Well since you stated that it has 2 billion people practicing it, it would make it the world's leading religion foss-you actually 'yelled' it by typing it in all caps... However, you are correct, you never actually stated 'world leading', you just used the number instead.

However, for you to get to that number, you have to add in the 1 billion Catholics... or, did you get that number some other way?

Without the Catholics, your number for Christians would only be 1 billion... actually then it would be less than the number of people who are Muslim... Christians would be a minority.

Very small? First you claim that God's definition of 'few' might be large, and then you're claiming that TWO BILLION PEOPLE is 'very small?' Two thousand years is a very short time?

 

[Aquabrit]

Without the Catholics, your number for Christians would only be 1 billion... actually then it would be less than the number of people who are Muslim... Christians would be a minority.

If you were to discount Catholics (and others) due to not being true followers of Christianity, then you'd also need to discount all those who claim to be Muslim, but aren't true followers of the Islamic faith, then compare the numbers.

 

[fossten]

Well since you stated that it has 2 billion people practicing it, it would make it the world's leading religion foss-you actually 'yelled' it by typing it in all caps... However, you are correct, you never actually stated 'world leading', you just used the number instead.

However, for you to get to that number, you have to add in the 1 billion Catholics... or, did you get that number some other way?

Without the Catholics, your number for Christians would only be 1 billion... actually then it would be less than the number of people who are Muslim... Christians would be a minority.

Actually, the 2 billion was YOUR NUMBER, not mine. I was simply accepting your premise for the sake of the argument. So, you're trying to attribute a claim to me that was actually made by you. Sorry you misunderstood, but let me clarify so that there is no mistake - there are not 2 billion Christians on planet Earth right now.

All else I could find is this quote (by me) in response to your demand:

I don't know what the numbers are.

 

[FIND]

I have been rather busy lately, so I am just gonna pop in quick to address two points.

Yep. And post the quote IN CONTEXT.

I'll find it later, but it speaks a lot to your character and credibility when you try and deny you said that all of the bible was meant to be taken literally every time a part of the bible comes up that shows how hateful Christians are, and just how much they are like religions that you label as evil.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that it is fact. Link or slink...

Hitler was a Christian. He was raised as a Catholic and attended Catholic schools. Much of Hitler's philosophy, as detailed in Mein Kampf, came right out of the Bible, and more importantly, from the Christian Socialist Movement of early twentieth-century Europe.

Hitler's anti-Semitism grew from his Christian education, which taught him that Jews were inferior to Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests, and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years.

Hitler took his Christian beliefs for granted and thus concentrated on politics and military power. Through political power Hitler wanted to create a German Reich Church (the Third Reich) to instill dogmatic beliefs in the German populace.

Future generations should understand that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of German Christians, Protestant (Lutheran) Churches and the Vatican.

Suggested Reading: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow

"Their sword will become our plow" appears to paraphrase Micah 4:3 about beating swords into ploughshares, but his tears of war more resembles Joel 3:9-10 "Beat your plowshares into swords."

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the 'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided.

Only a handful of Germans in the Reich had the slightest conception of the eternal and merciless struggle for the German language, German schools, and a German way of life. Only today, when the same deplorable misery is forced on many millions of Germans from the Reich, who under foreign rule dream of their common fatherland and strive, amid their longing, at least to preserve their holy right to their mother tongue, do wider circles understand what it means to be forced to fight for one's nationality.

And that is only the first chapter of volume one. Lot more of that book to go through. Would you like more quotes from Mein Kampf?

Alfred Rosenberg stands as the major reason why so many American Christians think Nazism represented Nordic pagan beliefs instead of Nazi Christianity. Hitler chose Rosenberg to create a 'religion of the Blood' knowing that any form of propaganda could prove useful. However, Hitler also attempted to establish a Reich Christian Church for the future of Germany. Hitler, himself, did not believe in pagan cults. Rosenberg charged that the true picture of Jesus had been distorted by fanatics like Matthew, by materialistic rabbis like Paul, by African jurists like Tertullian, and the mongrel half-breeds like St. Augustine. The real Christ, wrote Rosenberg, was an Amorite Nordic, aggressive, courageous, "a man of true Nordic character," a revolutionary who opposed the Jewish and Roman systems with sword in hand, bringing not peace but war (see Matthew 10:34-37). Rosenberg later went on to say that he favored a "positive Christianity," which would purify the Nordic race, re-establish the old pagan virtues, and substitute the fiery spirit of the hero for the crucifixion.

 

[shagdrum]

Hitler's "religion" was political expedience in amassing power. Wrapping himself and the ideals he promoted in the trappings of religion when the occasion called for it served that purpose. That is nothing new. Mussolini went farther and looked to establish the state as a religion.

The point is, giving lip service to Christianity doesn't make one Christian. Also, Hitler's Antisemitism did not come from Catholicism (though allusions to that in rhetoric could be used to sway people), it came from specific social/political schools of thought that were present around the turn of the century and was tied to his roots in socialism; Antisemitism was a personification of the anti-capitalist sentiment inherent in socialism.

 

[hrmwrm]

"The teachings of Christ have laid the foundations for the battle against
Jews as the enemy of Mankind; the work that Christ began, I shall finish."

Adolf Hitler, speech to his followers, December 18, 1926