God is Only a Theory
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cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Actually, I didn't. And you are the attacker here.
KS
KS
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
When I think of 'Worm' I'm reminded of something C S Lewis said. I won't try to quote it but, in essence, it was something on the order of, 'When I was an atheist, I often found myself wanting to believe, and now that I'm a believer I sometimes struggle to support my belief'. I, personally add to it the thought that 'faith as a grain of mustard seed...'. Even at a momentary nadir, I can ALWAYS summon that much belief.
KS
KS
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #498:
"So you STILL want to accuse the Father of torturing evildoers,or just people not Christian, in a fiery hell forever? You are slandering God. Trying to put Him on a level with the worst dregs of mankind, such as the murdering priests of Baal.
Such as Hitler,Mussolini, Stalin, Himmler,Charles Manson, etc.
God told Adam he would positively die . THAT was the punishment for disobeying the Creator.........think about this.............YOU are saying God changed the punishment for the crime! God says........`I change NOT' .
So go ahead in believe in the fiery furnace,instead of reading the figurative meaning therein. You have been inculcated by thousands of years of misunderstanding of scripture AND false religion wielding it's ugly head since the first century, being melded into true Christianity.
But the bottom line of the whole matter is, you are accusing God and Christ of the worst kind of Sadism."
That's PERFECT DON!!! THAT's how many people see God!!! As a kid with a magnifying glass,,, burning an ant hill. BUT!!! THAT is NOT what I said... even if YOU want to to TWIST it that way. YOU understand Christianity... as little as the Pharisees understood Christ's message.
TRUE Chrisitanity... does NOT teach that God puts people in torture. Jesus HIMSELF never said this!!! JESUS' point was that people put THEMSELVES in ETERNAL torture... BY REJECTING GOD!!! Jesus made this very clear!!! In Luke 13:22-30 Jesus says this:
22And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29“And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30“And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
So God will close the door on tose who want nothing to do with HIM. Jesus story of the wedding feast... says pretty much the same thing:
Matthew 22:1-10
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3“And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4“Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5“But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
Do YOU REALLY want me to continue Don??? I'm just getting warmed up. AGAIN... Jesus makes it very clear,,, who will and won't go to Heaven. AND Jesus' metaphor about Hell... in the parable of the rich man a Lazarus,,, was not meant to show necessairily that everyone burns,,, but that the TOTAL abscence of God in a persons' exsistance,,, after they die. ... WILL cause them to weep and gnash their teeth. Eternal torment as mentioned in the Bible... was shown as a metaphor,,, as "hellfire and brimstone"... but what could be WORSE than Buring alive forever DON???
As I said above somewhere DON,,, God has not FULLY removed HIS perscence from this earth YET... or the individual. When Judgement Day comes... ALL who rejected God,,, don't get tortured by God. God just simply removes his prescence from them. Thus... "they will be cast into UTTER/OUTER DARKNESS. Picture being buried alive Don... but never dying!!! Picture being in a prison cell, (solitary confinement), being able to touch that that is around you... but not being able to see anything,,, and knowing YOU locked the door on YOURSELF!!! ... and there IS NO key!!!
Found HERE:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Outer-Darkness
"So you STILL want to accuse the Father of torturing evildoers,or just people not Christian, in a fiery hell forever? You are slandering God. Trying to put Him on a level with the worst dregs of mankind, such as the murdering priests of Baal.
Such as Hitler,Mussolini, Stalin, Himmler,Charles Manson, etc.
God told Adam he would positively die . THAT was the punishment for disobeying the Creator.........think about this.............YOU are saying God changed the punishment for the crime! God says........`I change NOT' .
So go ahead in believe in the fiery furnace,instead of reading the figurative meaning therein. You have been inculcated by thousands of years of misunderstanding of scripture AND false religion wielding it's ugly head since the first century, being melded into true Christianity.
But the bottom line of the whole matter is, you are accusing God and Christ of the worst kind of Sadism."
That's PERFECT DON!!! THAT's how many people see God!!! As a kid with a magnifying glass,,, burning an ant hill. BUT!!! THAT is NOT what I said... even if YOU want to to TWIST it that way. YOU understand Christianity... as little as the Pharisees understood Christ's message.
TRUE Chrisitanity... does NOT teach that God puts people in torture. Jesus HIMSELF never said this!!! JESUS' point was that people put THEMSELVES in ETERNAL torture... BY REJECTING GOD!!! Jesus made this very clear!!! In Luke 13:22-30 Jesus says this:
22And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ 28“In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29“And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. 30“And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”
So God will close the door on tose who want nothing to do with HIM. Jesus story of the wedding feast... says pretty much the same thing:
Matthew 22:1-10
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3“And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4“Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5“But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
Do YOU REALLY want me to continue Don??? I'm just getting warmed up. AGAIN... Jesus makes it very clear,,, who will and won't go to Heaven. AND Jesus' metaphor about Hell... in the parable of the rich man a Lazarus,,, was not meant to show necessairily that everyone burns,,, but that the TOTAL abscence of God in a persons' exsistance,,, after they die. ... WILL cause them to weep and gnash their teeth. Eternal torment as mentioned in the Bible... was shown as a metaphor,,, as "hellfire and brimstone"... but what could be WORSE than Buring alive forever DON???
As I said above somewhere DON,,, God has not FULLY removed HIS perscence from this earth YET... or the individual. When Judgement Day comes... ALL who rejected God,,, don't get tortured by God. God just simply removes his prescence from them. Thus... "they will be cast into UTTER/OUTER DARKNESS. Picture being buried alive Don... but never dying!!! Picture being in a prison cell, (solitary confinement), being able to touch that that is around you... but not being able to see anything,,, and knowing YOU locked the door on YOURSELF!!! ... and there IS NO key!!!
Found HERE:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Outer-Darkness
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Wanna know something else Don??? As my son has matured from his late teens,,, to his early 20's... he had mad continual mistakes. A few years back... as he made those mistakes,,, I would "rush in" and save him.
As my son has gotten older... and continues to make those mistakes,,, I now stand back and let him deal with the problems he created. He now realizes,,, that "dad" isn't going to fix those things for him anymore... so he has to deal with his own choices,,, on his own. He is now seeing that he has created his own "hard road". Whether or not he wants to keep making the same mistakes... is up to him.
He may get mad at me,,, for not continuing to bail him out of his choices... but in reality,,, he hasn't. He knows I won't do it anymore... and has to answer for what he has done. MY SON is growing up,,, because I won't shelter him anymore. Samer with ALL of us and GOD at some point. When we make new mistakes... God will give us a chance. Just like a "DAD"... if we ignore the advice HE gives us... eventually HE will let us wallow in the mud with pigs.
Thus the story of the prodigal son!!! God hopes we ALL wake up at some point in our life,,, whether it be 9 or 90!!! HE gives us a chance in THIS life... to KNOW HIM,,, that way we are with HIM in the next life.
Again DON... if the prodigal son had never come home to "DAD"... he was then lost. There is a "flip side" to every parable mentioned in the Bible.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this elswhere in this forum... ,,, ... but during a Bible study a deacde or so back... the Leader of the bible study proposed THIS idea:
He saids that he had 2 sons,,, and that both of them had an inheritance waiting for them. The mans said,,, that no matter where they went on this earth... the inheritance was waiting for them. ( the point was meant to be God's gift of salvation)
I then stated... that in order for his son's to RECEIVE the inheritance, (no matter where they were), they first had to come home and CLAIM the inheritance of their "DAD". The people within that study gasped an murmerd... as they realized i was saying the truth.
To make the point further DON. I have 10 grand wrapped up in mechanics tools... that i have collected over 30 years. Replacement cost would be much more than that. On top of that... I have another 2 grand wrapped up in carpenters tools, (with replacement cost being much more). Even better... I have more wrapped up in "defense methods",,, which I won't even suggest a value.
IF... at some point,,, my son got so mad and angry with me... that he said "f-u dad!!! I want nothing to do with you anymore!!!" Then he walked out of my life,,, never to return again.
I could leave everything I own, (much to his blessing), to my son. But if he wanted NOTHING to do with me,,, the he would never come back to receive the inheritance I was STILL WILLING to give to him. My son WANTS the anniversary 30-30 Winchester I have... and really likes it, (especailly since it is like new). BUT AGAIN DON... if my son walks out of my life,,, and wants nothing to do with me... do you really think he will come back for one item???
Such is the way most people think of... and treat GOD. IF GOD won't give me what I want... and let's me wallow in my bad decisions,,, and won't bail me out... ,,, ... then I want nothing to do with him!!!
Thankfully,,, my son knows better... and understands that I am FORCING him to grow up,,, because he MADE HIS OWN... bad choices. Back to the Bible, (but actually I never strayed). If a person walks away from God,,, becauase they don't get their "genie in a bottle wish"... then they never understood who God IS/WAS.
I'll stop here for now!!!
As my son has gotten older... and continues to make those mistakes,,, I now stand back and let him deal with the problems he created. He now realizes,,, that "dad" isn't going to fix those things for him anymore... so he has to deal with his own choices,,, on his own. He is now seeing that he has created his own "hard road". Whether or not he wants to keep making the same mistakes... is up to him.
He may get mad at me,,, for not continuing to bail him out of his choices... but in reality,,, he hasn't. He knows I won't do it anymore... and has to answer for what he has done. MY SON is growing up,,, because I won't shelter him anymore. Samer with ALL of us and GOD at some point. When we make new mistakes... God will give us a chance. Just like a "DAD"... if we ignore the advice HE gives us... eventually HE will let us wallow in the mud with pigs.
Thus the story of the prodigal son!!! God hopes we ALL wake up at some point in our life,,, whether it be 9 or 90!!! HE gives us a chance in THIS life... to KNOW HIM,,, that way we are with HIM in the next life.
Again DON... if the prodigal son had never come home to "DAD"... he was then lost. There is a "flip side" to every parable mentioned in the Bible.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this elswhere in this forum... ,,, ... but during a Bible study a deacde or so back... the Leader of the bible study proposed THIS idea:
He saids that he had 2 sons,,, and that both of them had an inheritance waiting for them. The mans said,,, that no matter where they went on this earth... the inheritance was waiting for them. ( the point was meant to be God's gift of salvation)
I then stated... that in order for his son's to RECEIVE the inheritance, (no matter where they were), they first had to come home and CLAIM the inheritance of their "DAD". The people within that study gasped an murmerd... as they realized i was saying the truth.
To make the point further DON. I have 10 grand wrapped up in mechanics tools... that i have collected over 30 years. Replacement cost would be much more than that. On top of that... I have another 2 grand wrapped up in carpenters tools, (with replacement cost being much more). Even better... I have more wrapped up in "defense methods",,, which I won't even suggest a value.
IF... at some point,,, my son got so mad and angry with me... that he said "f-u dad!!! I want nothing to do with you anymore!!!" Then he walked out of my life,,, never to return again.
I could leave everything I own, (much to his blessing), to my son. But if he wanted NOTHING to do with me,,, the he would never come back to receive the inheritance I was STILL WILLING to give to him. My son WANTS the anniversary 30-30 Winchester I have... and really likes it, (especailly since it is like new). BUT AGAIN DON... if my son walks out of my life,,, and wants nothing to do with me... do you really think he will come back for one item???
Such is the way most people think of... and treat GOD. IF GOD won't give me what I want... and let's me wallow in my bad decisions,,, and won't bail me out... ,,, ... then I want nothing to do with him!!!
Thankfully,,, my son knows better... and understands that I am FORCING him to grow up,,, because he MADE HIS OWN... bad choices. Back to the Bible, (but actually I never strayed). If a person walks away from God,,, becauase they don't get their "genie in a bottle wish"... then they never understood who God IS/WAS.
I'll stop here for now!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Let's quote Don one more time,,, from post #498:
"So go ahead in believe in the fiery furnace,instead of reading the figurative meaning therein. You have been inculcated by thousands of years of misunderstanding of scripture AND false religion wielding it's ugly head since the first century, being melded into true Christianity."
OHHHH DON!!! You hit on my favorite part of the BOOK of DANIEL:
About Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego...
Daniel 3:16-18
16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
You ignorant goofball Don!!! Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego didn't care if they were recused from the firey funance. THEY KNEW the WOULD be SAVED by God. So you once again TWIST Scripture,,, for your own methods... just in an attempt to prosylitize someone to your faith!!!!
One more step down Don! Keep digging the hole!!!
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego had COMPLETE FAITH in God... no matter what happened!!! YES DON!!! RELIGION IS FALSE,,, ... ,,, BUT FAITH ISN'T!!! So walk away from YOUR RELIGION,,, while you STILL have time!!!
"So go ahead in believe in the fiery furnace,instead of reading the figurative meaning therein. You have been inculcated by thousands of years of misunderstanding of scripture AND false religion wielding it's ugly head since the first century, being melded into true Christianity."
OHHHH DON!!! You hit on my favorite part of the BOOK of DANIEL:
About Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego...
Daniel 3:16-18
16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
You ignorant goofball Don!!! Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego didn't care if they were recused from the firey funance. THEY KNEW the WOULD be SAVED by God. So you once again TWIST Scripture,,, for your own methods... just in an attempt to prosylitize someone to your faith!!!!
One more step down Don! Keep digging the hole!!!
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego had COMPLETE FAITH in God... no matter what happened!!! YES DON!!! RELIGION IS FALSE,,, ... ,,, BUT FAITH ISN'T!!! So walk away from YOUR RELIGION,,, while you STILL have time!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Wrm post #499:
"still on. you believe in the son of god, miracle man, healer of the sick, could even walk on water, but incapable of the written word himself.
and you don't see a problem.
try a little critical thinking."
Wrm... I'm going to think, (by wording), that this was directed towards DON. If so... very well said!!! If I am wrong... please explain your thoughts,,, because I do not think Jesus was incapable of the written word. Jesus knew the Bible, (at the time... Old Testament)... better than the Scibes, Saducees,,, or Pharisees. That is what got Jesus into trouble, (and eventually cruicified).
So Don... at this point,,, I think when Wrm said " try a little critical thinking."... it was directed at you.
Again Wrm... if I am wrong,,, please correct me.
"still on. you believe in the son of god, miracle man, healer of the sick, could even walk on water, but incapable of the written word himself.
and you don't see a problem.
try a little critical thinking."
Wrm... I'm going to think, (by wording), that this was directed towards DON. If so... very well said!!! If I am wrong... please explain your thoughts,,, because I do not think Jesus was incapable of the written word. Jesus knew the Bible, (at the time... Old Testament)... better than the Scibes, Saducees,,, or Pharisees. That is what got Jesus into trouble, (and eventually cruicified).
So Don... at this point,,, I think when Wrm said " try a little critical thinking."... it was directed at you.
Again Wrm... if I am wrong,,, please correct me.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote SD post #503:
"I really have to wonder about hrmwrm. Either he is an exceedingly uneducated idiot. Or a willfull troll. Either way, it might be a good time for him to go back on the ol' "ignore" list."
I don't think so SD. By the way... glad to see you still around. I hope you and i are on "good terms" after not seeing "eye to eye" in the past. Hopefully there are no hard feelings.
I think Wrm likes being the "devils advocate"... and making people think. Maybe I am ignorant,,, but it is nice to see that other people are still watching.
"I really have to wonder about hrmwrm. Either he is an exceedingly uneducated idiot. Or a willfull troll. Either way, it might be a good time for him to go back on the ol' "ignore" list."
I don't think so SD. By the way... glad to see you still around. I hope you and i are on "good terms" after not seeing "eye to eye" in the past. Hopefully there are no hard feelings.
I think Wrm likes being the "devils advocate"... and making people think. Maybe I am ignorant,,, but it is nice to see that other people are still watching.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Cam post #504:
"When I think of 'Worm' I'm reminded of something C S Lewis said. I won't try to quote it but, in essence, it was something on the order of, 'When I was an atheist, I often found myself wanting to believe, and now that I'm a believer I sometimes struggle to support my belief'. I, personally add to it the thought that 'faith as a grain of mustard seed...'. Even at a momentary nadir, I can ALWAYS summon that much belief.
Easy Cam... I think there is a reason for Wrm's comments. Don't forget He started this thread... and hasn't put a stop to it,,, even when i asked him if he wanted to. There is a "method to his madness",,, so to speak. Antogonist or protagonist,,, Wrm has his methods and/or his means.
I noticed your mention of "nadir",,, annd recognized that as a term from the followers of Ishmael. Seems as though i was correct in what i said about you previously... about knowing and undrstanding more than you let on. I'm not picking... but noticing. Your teaching has been "well rounded" as I knew there was more to you than "met the eye"'.
"When I think of 'Worm' I'm reminded of something C S Lewis said. I won't try to quote it but, in essence, it was something on the order of, 'When I was an atheist, I often found myself wanting to believe, and now that I'm a believer I sometimes struggle to support my belief'. I, personally add to it the thought that 'faith as a grain of mustard seed...'. Even at a momentary nadir, I can ALWAYS summon that much belief.
Easy Cam... I think there is a reason for Wrm's comments. Don't forget He started this thread... and hasn't put a stop to it,,, even when i asked him if he wanted to. There is a "method to his madness",,, so to speak. Antogonist or protagonist,,, Wrm has his methods and/or his means.
I noticed your mention of "nadir",,, annd recognized that as a term from the followers of Ishmael. Seems as though i was correct in what i said about you previously... about knowing and undrstanding more than you let on. I'm not picking... but noticing. Your teaching has been "well rounded" as I knew there was more to you than "met the eye"'.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I would add NOW Don,,, that Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego... are most likely part of the 144,000. So that leaves a maximum of 143,994 positions open for the Jehovah Witnesses to fill... of which any of 8 million can "self proclaim" themselves to be one of the 144,000.
Don... do your really think I would debate with you,,, if i didn't have SOME understanding of YOUR "RELIGION"??? AGAIN... my dead JW friend,,, probably told me more than he should have.
You really need to stop now Don... before you bury yourself... and YOUR religion!!!
Don... do your really think I would debate with you,,, if i didn't have SOME understanding of YOUR "RELIGION"??? AGAIN... my dead JW friend,,, probably told me more than he should have.
You really need to stop now Don... before you bury yourself... and YOUR religion!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
WRM!!! Can I get an "Amen" from you???
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
So back to my FREE gift. It's up for grabs,,, since it's obvious Don doesn't want it. Any takers???
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Really??? No one wants to take a chance??? No one wants to take a "step of faith"???
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I am being "literal" about offering a gift!!!
Quote 04: `I would add NOW Don,,, that Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego... are most likely part of the 144,000. So that leaves a maximum of 143,994 positions open for the Jehovah Witnesses to fill... of which any of 8 million can "self proclaim" themselves to be one of the 144,000.' END quote.
This statement ALONE shows that you DO NOT have a clue about the 144,000 of Jesus' subordinate kings and priests that will rule the Earthly subjects from Heaven.
Most of the 8 million JWs are expecting to live on a paradise Earth as Adam would have if he had not sinned in accordance with Satan's wishes.
The test of loyalty to God has been answered by Christ, even to his death. NEVER AGAIN will God's accuser have to be answered to. Thanks to God and Christ for this final result to the benefit of all mankind.
don-ohio
^)
This statement ALONE shows that you DO NOT have a clue about the 144,000 of Jesus' subordinate kings and priests that will rule the Earthly subjects from Heaven.
Most of the 8 million JWs are expecting to live on a paradise Earth as Adam would have if he had not sinned in accordance with Satan's wishes.
The test of loyalty to God has been answered by Christ, even to his death. NEVER AGAIN will God's accuser have to be answered to. Thanks to God and Christ for this final result to the benefit of all mankind.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Yeah Don... I know nothing about the 144,000... I know nothing about the Bible... and I know nothing about the Jehovah Witnesses or their beliefs.
Or so you would like to think,,, and project to others. Let's take a small look at what the Watchtower Society has to say about the 144,000... and other Christians, (counterfeit one's too).
Or so you would like to think,,, and project to others. Let's take a small look at what the Watchtower Society has to say about the 144,000... and other Christians, (counterfeit one's too).
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Watchtower 2007 May 1 p.30-31
Questions From Readers:
When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?
The Bible does not reveal a precise answer to that question. We do know that the anointing of Jesus’ disciples with a view to their heavenly inheritance began in 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian “wheat” came to “grow together” with counterfeit Christians, “weeds.” (Matthew 13:24-30) Then, starting in the late 1800’s, anointed Christians were again prominently active. In 1919 “the harvest of the earth,” including the gathering of the final ones of the anointed, began to be reaped.—Revelation 14:15, 16.
From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931. For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.
In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.
Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentantly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual to take his place. (Romans 11:17-22) However, the number of genuine anointed ones who have become unfaithful is likely not large. On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.
How should a person be viewed who has determined in his heart that he is now anointed and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He should not be judged. The matter is between him and Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the other sheep have; nor do they expect special treatment or claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation. They humbly remember that some anointed men in the first century did not qualify to serve as elders or ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9; James 3:1) Some anointed Christians were even spiritually weak. (1 Thessalonians 5:14) And sisters, although anointed, did not teach in the congregation.—1 Timothy 2:11, 12.
Hence, anointed Christians along with their other sheep companions strive to stay spiritually strong, cultivating the fruitage of the spirit and working for the peace of the congregation. All Christians, whether anointed or of the other sheep, work hard at preaching the good news and making disciples under the direction of the Governing Body. Anointed Christians are content to do this for as long as it is God’s will that they remain on earth as Jehovah’s servants.
Questions From Readers:
When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?
The Bible does not reveal a precise answer to that question. We do know that the anointing of Jesus’ disciples with a view to their heavenly inheritance began in 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian “wheat” came to “grow together” with counterfeit Christians, “weeds.” (Matthew 13:24-30) Then, starting in the late 1800’s, anointed Christians were again prominently active. In 1919 “the harvest of the earth,” including the gathering of the final ones of the anointed, began to be reaped.—Revelation 14:15, 16.
From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931. For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.
In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.
Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentantly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual to take his place. (Romans 11:17-22) However, the number of genuine anointed ones who have become unfaithful is likely not large. On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.
How should a person be viewed who has determined in his heart that he is now anointed and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He should not be judged. The matter is between him and Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) However, genuine anointed Christians do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special “insights,” beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the other sheep have; nor do they expect special treatment or claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation. They humbly remember that some anointed men in the first century did not qualify to serve as elders or ministerial servants. (1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9; James 3:1) Some anointed Christians were even spiritually weak. (1 Thessalonians 5:14) And sisters, although anointed, did not teach in the congregation.—1 Timothy 2:11, 12.
Hence, anointed Christians along with their other sheep companions strive to stay spiritually strong, cultivating the fruitage of the spirit and working for the peace of the congregation. All Christians, whether anointed or of the other sheep, work hard at preaching the good news and making disciples under the direction of the Governing Body. Anointed Christians are content to do this for as long as it is God’s will that they remain on earth as Jehovah’s servants.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
First... let's take a look at this part in the first paragraph:
"We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian “wheat” came to “grow together” with counterfeit Christians, “weeds.” (Matthew 13:24-30)"
Ummmm... the above idea of the wheat and weeds doesn't match up with any Christian Bible translation,,, nor does it even match up with your NWT.
Matthew 13:24-30 NWT
24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’+ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”+
Jesus doesn't desn't say that the weeds are "counterfeit" Christians. He says the "weeds" were planted by the "enemy". And before you try to say this is just a parable, (like you have in the past)... THIS time,,, Jesus goes on to explain the parable.
Matthew 13:36-43 NWT
36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world.+ As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,+ 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.*+ 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.+ There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun+ in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
So Don...
"Fine seed" = believers/People of Faith
"weeds" = non-belivers/lawless scoffers, (or worse)
What does Jesus say in Matthew 13:41-42 NWT (again)
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.+ There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.
Notice Don??? Firey furnace??? Weeping and gnashing of teeth??? Sounds like eternal torment to me. You may elieve that they get "burned up", (destroyed)... but either way,,, it doesn't look like Jesus is talking about "countefeit" Christians... but instead evil people that belong to/with the devil.
Luke 3:17 NWT
17 His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”
Remeber Don... the above verse is John the Baptist,,, talking about Jesus Christ!!! Fire that cannot be put out!!! Again Don... the idea of this eternal torment/fire not being put out... is caused by a person rejecting God,,, and putting themself in etrnal separation from God.
I'm just getting started on the article Don. There's more bad interpretaion of Scripture in it.
First part of next paragraph in the article:
"From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931."
So now lets look at Matthew 20:1-16 in the NWT
20 “For the Kingdom of the heavens is like the master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.+ 2 After he had agreed with the workers for a de·narʹi·us* a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 Going out also about the third hour,* he saw others standing unemployed in the marketplace; 4 and to those he said, ‘You too go into the vineyard, and I will give you whatever is fair.’ 5 So off they went. Again he went out about the sixth hour* and the ninth hour* and did likewise. 6 Finally, about the 11th hour,* he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day unemployed?’ 7 They replied, ‘Because nobody has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into the vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the master of the vineyard said to his man in charge, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages,+ starting with the last and ending with the first.’ 9 When the 11th-hour men came, they each received a de·narʹi·us.* 10 So when the first came, they assumed that they would receive more, but they too were paid at the rate of a de·narʹi·us.* 11 On receiving it, they began to complain against the master of the house 12 and said, ‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us,* did you not?+ 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. 15 Do I not have the right to do what I want with my own things? Or is your eye envious* because I am good?’*+ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”+
First... a "denarius" in Jesus' day,,, was equivalent to a days wages. Jesus' point with the workers in the field/ laborers of the vinyard... is that people came to work at different times of the day,,, but ALL got paid the SAME wage for the day. Some workers started whining,,, and the master made the point that it was HIS choice to pay everyone equally... no matter WHEN they started working for HIM.
Soooo... the point of Jesus' parable here is... it doesn't matter when the individual comes to Faith in God. The end result is being in God's prescence,,, for ALL of them.
Whoever wrote this article... DEFINITELY used a stretch of the imagination for their conclusionsabout this parable. Almost seems like maybe you wrote it Don. If not... it's easy to see where your skewed view of the Bible comes from.
"We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian “wheat” came to “grow together” with counterfeit Christians, “weeds.” (Matthew 13:24-30)"
Ummmm... the above idea of the wheat and weeds doesn't match up with any Christian Bible translation,,, nor does it even match up with your NWT.
Matthew 13:24-30 NWT
24 He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’+ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”+
Jesus doesn't desn't say that the weeds are "counterfeit" Christians. He says the "weeds" were planted by the "enemy". And before you try to say this is just a parable, (like you have in the past)... THIS time,,, Jesus goes on to explain the parable.
Matthew 13:36-43 NWT
36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world.+ As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,+ 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,* and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.*+ 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.+ There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun+ in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
So Don...
"Fine seed" = believers/People of Faith
"weeds" = non-belivers/lawless scoffers, (or worse)
What does Jesus say in Matthew 13:41-42 NWT (again)
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.+ There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.
Notice Don??? Firey furnace??? Weeping and gnashing of teeth??? Sounds like eternal torment to me. You may elieve that they get "burned up", (destroyed)... but either way,,, it doesn't look like Jesus is talking about "countefeit" Christians... but instead evil people that belong to/with the devil.
Luke 3:17 NWT
17 His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”
Remeber Don... the above verse is John the Baptist,,, talking about Jesus Christ!!! Fire that cannot be put out!!! Again Don... the idea of this eternal torment/fire not being put out... is caused by a person rejecting God,,, and putting themself in etrnal separation from God.
I'm just getting started on the article Don. There's more bad interpretaion of Scripture in it.
First part of next paragraph in the article:
"From the late 1800’s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah’s Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the “denarius” referred to in Jesus’ parable recorded at Matthew 20:1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931."
So now lets look at Matthew 20:1-16 in the NWT
20 “For the Kingdom of the heavens is like the master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.+ 2 After he had agreed with the workers for a de·narʹi·us* a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 Going out also about the third hour,* he saw others standing unemployed in the marketplace; 4 and to those he said, ‘You too go into the vineyard, and I will give you whatever is fair.’ 5 So off they went. Again he went out about the sixth hour* and the ninth hour* and did likewise. 6 Finally, about the 11th hour,* he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day unemployed?’ 7 They replied, ‘Because nobody has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into the vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the master of the vineyard said to his man in charge, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages,+ starting with the last and ending with the first.’ 9 When the 11th-hour men came, they each received a de·narʹi·us.* 10 So when the first came, they assumed that they would receive more, but they too were paid at the rate of a de·narʹi·us.* 11 On receiving it, they began to complain against the master of the house 12 and said, ‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us,* did you not?+ 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. 15 Do I not have the right to do what I want with my own things? Or is your eye envious* because I am good?’*+ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”+
First... a "denarius" in Jesus' day,,, was equivalent to a days wages. Jesus' point with the workers in the field/ laborers of the vinyard... is that people came to work at different times of the day,,, but ALL got paid the SAME wage for the day. Some workers started whining,,, and the master made the point that it was HIS choice to pay everyone equally... no matter WHEN they started working for HIM.
Soooo... the point of Jesus' parable here is... it doesn't matter when the individual comes to Faith in God. The end result is being in God's prescence,,, for ALL of them.
Whoever wrote this article... DEFINITELY used a stretch of the imagination for their conclusionsabout this parable. Almost seems like maybe you wrote it Don. If not... it's easy to see where your skewed view of the Bible comes from.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I'm done for now. I'll have to look over the rest of the article,,, and compare it to Scripture before I proceed.
Quotem 04:` Notice Don??? Firey furnace??? Weeping and gnashing of teeth??? Sounds like eternal torment to me. You may elieve that they get "burned up", (destroyed)... but either way,,, it doesn't look like Jesus is talking about "countefeit" Christians... but instead evil people that belong to/with the devil.
Luke 3:17 NWT
17 His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”
Remeber Don... the above verse is John the Baptist,,, talking about Jesus Christ!!! Fire that cannot be put out!!! Again Don... the idea of this eternal torment/fire not being put out... is caused by a person rejecting God,,, and putting themself in etrnal separation from God.' END Quote.
So when you see the illustration that God will burn up the chaff with the fire that cannot be put out,that MEANS ETERNAL TORMENT to you? Does it say He will keep the chaff alive and keep torching it? He says He will BURN IT UP! That's death,04,not torture.
Eternal TORMENT is torture,which God and Christ would never do. The Bible even says the worst of all,Satan, will `come to nothing'. `Come to nothing' sound like eternal torture to you,04? Again you do not want to believe God when He straight out told ADAM the punishment for disobedience. God does not change,nor does He change pronouncements of punishment, UNLESS He shows mercy,as in the book of Jonah when Ninevah repented.
don-ohio^)
Luke 3:17 NWT
17 His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”
Remeber Don... the above verse is John the Baptist,,, talking about Jesus Christ!!! Fire that cannot be put out!!! Again Don... the idea of this eternal torment/fire not being put out... is caused by a person rejecting God,,, and putting themself in etrnal separation from God.' END Quote.
So when you see the illustration that God will burn up the chaff with the fire that cannot be put out,that MEANS ETERNAL TORMENT to you? Does it say He will keep the chaff alive and keep torching it? He says He will BURN IT UP! That's death,04,not torture.
Eternal TORMENT is torture,which God and Christ would never do. The Bible even says the worst of all,Satan, will `come to nothing'. `Come to nothing' sound like eternal torture to you,04? Again you do not want to believe God when He straight out told ADAM the punishment for disobedience. God does not change,nor does He change pronouncements of punishment, UNLESS He shows mercy,as in the book of Jonah when Ninevah repented.
don-ohio
^)Yes! You keep reading that Watchtower and you're gonna learn SOMETHING whether you want to or not. You can start by trying to understand WHY God has a group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers. don-ohio ^)
^)HERE'S the truth for any honest-hearted seeker of truth out there about the myth of LITERAL eternal torment :
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, . . . for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Revised Standard Version.
The Hebrew word Sheol, which referred to the “abode of the dead,” is translated “hell” in some versions of the Bible. What does this passage reveal about the condition of the dead? Do they suffer in Sheol in order to atone for their errors? No, for they “know nothing.” That is why the patriarch Job, when suffering terribly because of a severe illness, begged God: “Protect me in hell [Hebrew, Sheol].” (Job 14:13; Douay-Rheims Version) What meaning would his request have had if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased.
don-ohio^)
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, . . . for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, Revised Standard Version.
The Hebrew word Sheol, which referred to the “abode of the dead,” is translated “hell” in some versions of the Bible. What does this passage reveal about the condition of the dead? Do they suffer in Sheol in order to atone for their errors? No, for they “know nothing.” That is why the patriarch Job, when suffering terribly because of a severe illness, begged God: “Protect me in hell [Hebrew, Sheol].” (Job 14:13; Douay-Rheims Version) What meaning would his request have had if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Ohhhh...... I'm leaning Don. I'm learning that the JW's believe tyhey are going to be the only ones in Heaven. I'm learning that due to this belief and teaching,,, the JW's think that it will only be 144,000... and none of them will be Jews,,, even thought the bible specifically and literally mentions the 12 tibes of Israel in Revelation.
I'm learning that since the JW's re-opened the idea of the "Heavenly Calling" in 1966,,, after SOMEBODY realized the the JW belief about the parable of the "workers of the vinyard"... was totally off base. So once again... the JW's modified their belifs, (just like 1914), to better match Scripture.
The ONLY way sombody could have mis-interpreted Matthew 13:36-43 (to fit 1900 years after Chist died)... is because the JW's see EVERYTHING as futuristic prophecy in the Bible,,, because they are OVER focused on the 144,0000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So now, (for quite a while actually),,, again... the "Hevenly Hope" has been re-opened so that anyone can self proclaim themselves as one of the 144,000. I don't know of ANY Christian denomination,,, that has re-written parts of the Bible to match their beliefs... or of too many religions that falsely re-interpreted Scripture to match their beliefs.
You're right Don!!! I'm learning... why exactly I will NOT become a JW!!!!!! I can walk into almost ANY Christian denomination church... and hear teaching of Scripture that lines up with what the Bible actually says. You keep forgetting I had a witness friend a number of years ago,,, and nothing he was saying lined up with Scripture either.
I'm learning that since the JW's re-opened the idea of the "Heavenly Calling" in 1966,,, after SOMEBODY realized the the JW belief about the parable of the "workers of the vinyard"... was totally off base. So once again... the JW's modified their belifs, (just like 1914), to better match Scripture.
The ONLY way sombody could have mis-interpreted Matthew 13:36-43 (to fit 1900 years after Chist died)... is because the JW's see EVERYTHING as futuristic prophecy in the Bible,,, because they are OVER focused on the 144,0000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So now, (for quite a while actually),,, again... the "Hevenly Hope" has been re-opened so that anyone can self proclaim themselves as one of the 144,000. I don't know of ANY Christian denomination,,, that has re-written parts of the Bible to match their beliefs... or of too many religions that falsely re-interpreted Scripture to match their beliefs.
You're right Don!!! I'm learning... why exactly I will NOT become a JW!!!!!! I can walk into almost ANY Christian denomination church... and hear teaching of Scripture that lines up with what the Bible actually says. You keep forgetting I had a witness friend a number of years ago,,, and nothing he was saying lined up with Scripture either.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
So now le't get into the Ecclesiastes and Job part:
Ecclesiastes 9:2- through first half of verse 3 (NASB)
2It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men.
Don. So what is the author talking about here??? That everyone dies... both good and bad... and the evil he decribes in verse 3,,, is the one fate all men know, as dying.
Hebrews 9:27-28 (NIV)
27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Notice Don... the ending of Hebrews 9:28,,, "but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
Who is/was waiting for Jesus Don??? ... Those of Faith who already died,,, just like Ecclesiastes 9 talks about, (THE GOOD).
NOW Ecclesiastes 9: last half of verse 3 - through 6 NASB
Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
The thing you may be missing in the Scripture ,,, is the 2 part message in the beginning of Ecclesiastes. Notice I used verses 2-6,,, and left out verse 1... and verses 7-9. That's because verses 2-6 are a sencondary thought,,, captured within the authors main thought.
So now I will put together the authors main thought... by combining verse 1 and verses 7-9.
1For I have taken all this to my heart and explain it that righteous men, wise men, and their deeds are in the hand of God. Man does not know whether it will be love or hatred; anything awaits him.
7Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works. 8Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head. 9Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
So Don... your thoughts and conceptions about Ecclesiastes,,, are almost as wrong as the JW belief about the parable of the workers of the vinyard. Not to mention you combined 2 separated paragraphs of Ecclesiastes... because chapter 9 verse 10,,, starts a new thought.
And Sheol is not hell... it is the place of the dead,,, where people are awaiting Christ. I thought you understood that from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom... and the rich man was in Hades/Gehenna, (in torment)
Luke 16:23 (NASB)
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Again Don... in the parable,,, Jesus NEVER mentions that Abraham says to the rich man... that his torment is only temporary.
So now to Ecclesiastes 9:10
10Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
In this verse,,, the word Sheol in ACTUAL HEBREW is...
7585 [e]
biš·’ō·wl
בִּשְׁא֕וֹל
in Sheol
Noun
In Job 14:13 Sheol is this...
7585 [e]
biš·’ō·wl
בִּשְׁא֬וֹל
in the engrave
Noun
So Don... Sheol is the GRAVE,,, and also the place where people of Faith wait to be resurrected from... as talked about at the end of Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:39-40 (NASB)
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect
Again Don, (for about the 4th or 5th time)... the people of Faith that died before Jesus' death on the cross,,, had to wait until Jesus died... to receive their promise
Quote Don post #523,,, talking about Job:
"What meaning would his request have had if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? "
Again Don, Sheol, (biš·’ō·wl , ḵiš·’ō·wl , liš·’ō·wl and other variations)... is the grave. Job was asking God to let him die.
Job 14:13 (NIV)
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
Hebrew to English of Job 14:13
O that you would me hide in the engrave, that you would keep me secret until be past Your wrath, that you would appoint a set time to me, and remember
The above comes from the Interlinear. Remember to read right to left.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/14-13.htm
Quote Don post #523 again:
"Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased."
Yes Don... for the most part you are correct. But Sheol, (and Hades) is different from Gehenna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Read the whole article Don... you might actually learn something. Gehenna is the lake of fire in Jesus' metaphors. Same place the rich man was in the parable.
Wiki actually missed a bible verse... kinda/sorta. They mention Mark 9:43,,, but leave off verse 44... which gives more description of Gehenna
Mark 9:44 (NASB) 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Actually... the same is repeated by Jesus in Mark 9:46
Mark 9:46 (NASB) 46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Ecclesiastes 9:2- through first half of verse 3 (NASB)
2It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men.
Don. So what is the author talking about here??? That everyone dies... both good and bad... and the evil he decribes in verse 3,,, is the one fate all men know, as dying.
Hebrews 9:27-28 (NIV)
27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Notice Don... the ending of Hebrews 9:28,,, "but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
Who is/was waiting for Jesus Don??? ... Those of Faith who already died,,, just like Ecclesiastes 9 talks about, (THE GOOD).
NOW Ecclesiastes 9: last half of verse 3 - through 6 NASB
Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
The thing you may be missing in the Scripture ,,, is the 2 part message in the beginning of Ecclesiastes. Notice I used verses 2-6,,, and left out verse 1... and verses 7-9. That's because verses 2-6 are a sencondary thought,,, captured within the authors main thought.
So now I will put together the authors main thought... by combining verse 1 and verses 7-9.
1For I have taken all this to my heart and explain it that righteous men, wise men, and their deeds are in the hand of God. Man does not know whether it will be love or hatred; anything awaits him.
7Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works. 8Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head. 9Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
So Don... your thoughts and conceptions about Ecclesiastes,,, are almost as wrong as the JW belief about the parable of the workers of the vinyard. Not to mention you combined 2 separated paragraphs of Ecclesiastes... because chapter 9 verse 10,,, starts a new thought.
And Sheol is not hell... it is the place of the dead,,, where people are awaiting Christ. I thought you understood that from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom... and the rich man was in Hades/Gehenna, (in torment)
Luke 16:23 (NASB)
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Again Don... in the parable,,, Jesus NEVER mentions that Abraham says to the rich man... that his torment is only temporary.
So now to Ecclesiastes 9:10
10Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
In this verse,,, the word Sheol in ACTUAL HEBREW is...
7585 [e]
biš·’ō·wl
בִּשְׁא֕וֹל
in Sheol
Noun
In Job 14:13 Sheol is this...
7585 [e]
biš·’ō·wl
בִּשְׁא֬וֹל
in the engrave
Noun
So Don... Sheol is the GRAVE,,, and also the place where people of Faith wait to be resurrected from... as talked about at the end of Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:39-40 (NASB)
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect
Again Don, (for about the 4th or 5th time)... the people of Faith that died before Jesus' death on the cross,,, had to wait until Jesus died... to receive their promise
Quote Don post #523,,, talking about Job:
"What meaning would his request have had if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? "
Again Don, Sheol, (biš·’ō·wl , ḵiš·’ō·wl , liš·’ō·wl and other variations)... is the grave. Job was asking God to let him die.
Job 14:13 (NIV)
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
Hebrew to English of Job 14:13
O that you would me hide in the engrave, that you would keep me secret until be past Your wrath, that you would appoint a set time to me, and remember
The above comes from the Interlinear. Remember to read right to left.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/14-13.htm
Quote Don post #523 again:
"Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased."
Yes Don... for the most part you are correct. But Sheol, (and Hades) is different from Gehenna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Read the whole article Don... you might actually learn something. Gehenna is the lake of fire in Jesus' metaphors. Same place the rich man was in the parable.
Wiki actually missed a bible verse... kinda/sorta. They mention Mark 9:43,,, but leave off verse 44... which gives more description of Gehenna
Mark 9:44 (NASB) 44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Actually... the same is repeated by Jesus in Mark 9:46
Mark 9:46 (NASB) 46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]