Did I just buy a money pit?

Lincolnguy said:
... I worked for BMW for a while, parts are about the same its the labor cost that makes BMW "expensive", but if know how to use a wrench and read a manual its really not different then any type of luxury car.
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While I like the LS much better than my 325i, I somewhat agree. The 325 isn't any more reliable than the LS V8, but the parts for it are available and are less expensive than the LS parts. It's no harder to work on than the LS. One warning about the BMWs, one good overheat and it's all over.
 
One quick suggestion, I have read several times that bad cats will ruin new coils, so if your cats are truly bad you will be buying a second set of coils later.

Joe,, The TSM put out on the extended coverage for the coils, was that 10 year 100,000 miles?
 
Talbotway said:
One quick suggestion, I have read several times that bad cats will ruin new coils, so if your cats are truly bad you will be buying a second set of coils later.

Joe,, The TSM put out on the extended coverage for the coils, was that 10 year 100,000 miles?
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It's the other way around. Bad coils will ruin cats. I don't see anyway that bad cats would ruin coils.

Yes, the extended coverage is 10 years/100K mile. However, it only applies to 2003 to 2005 V8s. There is no extended coverage for the OP's V6.
 
joegr said:
It's the other way around. Bad coils will ruin cats. I don't see anyway that bad cats would ruin coils.

Yes, the extended coverage is 10 years/100K mile. However, it only applies to 2003 to 2005 V8s. There is no extended coverage for the OP's V6.
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I would recommend going to an auto parts and getting the codes, we will be able to help you further with them.

Hope this helps, 6 months ago my check engine light came on I checked the codes, Two codes where P0420 (catalytic converters), and the other where P0303, P0301, P0304, P0306 These codes mean a misfire in tr.he cylinde. I decided to replace the spark plugs but when I took out the coil I found oil on them. Long story short, my valve gasket was leaking oil into my coils shorting them out causing the misfire in those cylinders, This caused unburned fuel to reach the CAT, ruining them. I changed my valve gasket they cost about $84 Rockauto.com and the spark plugs and coils $250-400. I never changed the CAT I tried replacing the o2 sensors, but they did not work I still have the two P0420 codes, My car rides beautifully. Word of advise check the coils for oil, water, or erosion, to make sure there is nothing ruining your coils, also check the spark plugs if coils look fine it might just be the spark plugs make sure they are gaped correctly as well...

Does anybody have a link to this 10 years 100,000 miles extended warranty, I have a 2005 Lincoln LS V8 91k miles, and I don't mind getting a set of $400 coils for free..;)
 
All American Lincoln said:
...Does anybody have a link to this 10 years 100,000 miles extended warranty, I have a 2005 Lincoln LS V8 91k miles, and I don't mind getting a set of $400 coils for free..;)
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It doesn't work that way. They stress test the coils and only replace the ones that fail the test. They all have to be OEM coils. If (usually unlikely) none of the coils fails the stress test, you will be charged for the testing.

Here's a link to the letter.
http://www.allstatetrucks.com/Recalls/cust satisfaction recalls/07m07/R07M07 dealer bulletin.pdf
 
All American Lincoln said:
I never changed the CAT I tried replacing the o2 sensors, but they did not work I still have the two P0420 codes, My car rides beautifully.
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A stored code will cause an emissions failure in a state (like The People's Republik) that smog checks.
 
LS4me said:
A stored code will cause an emissions failure in a state (like The People's Republik) that smog checks.
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Tell me about it, changed both o2 sensors and still getting back the p0420 codes, keeping me from passing my inspection and from gettin the ls plated
 
cats doggin gyou?

ElGatoBlanco said:
The code was already pulled by the dealer and they said it was the cats. But the problem is hard shaking when cold starting. I've been reading threads until my eyes hurt and nothing equates that symptom to bad cats. Thus, I am worried there is something else wrong. Replacing the cats is one thing, but I need to know what caused them to go bad in the first place so that can also be fixed so I don't end up having to replace the cats twice.

ANother thing I noticed today, is the steering wheel shaking pretty bad when driving down the road. Faster I go, the more it shakes. Sitting still, and at low speed it doesn't shake at all. Conventional wisdom would say it's a steering component but I JUST had an alignment done yesterday after replacing the brakes all the way around along with the right upper control arm, so hard to figure that, unless it is a related symptom to the vibration during cold starts and not a steering component.
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I am not yet an LS owner so this is somewhat general. I don't like it when mechanic tells me: "You need this or that and the cats too." I like to know the codes and check online. There is this P0420 Catalytic Efficiency Below Threshold. Then I find something like this:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=8KhHvEefl6Gqogc-OwdJ4A&bvm=bv.46340616,d.aWM

So if the threshold is 95% and the efficiency drops to 94% the mechanic has an excuse to tell me that I need new cats.
 
like I said before just pull the codes so we can tell you exactly what it is. but all indications looks like is coils issues with a possible cat issue as a result. btw on my 02 that I gave to my brother we replaced both the cats for less than 700 installed. here is the ones I got and no codes so far and that was over a year ago.
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/s...al:0)&refType=Product+Fit&refValue=Direct+fit

I got the eastern ones and did the install at a local shop
 
From what I understand, the coil/plug issue is caused by the valve cover gaskets leaking oil down into the plug wells and causing problems with the coils. Also, as I understand, for 03-05 this applies to the V8 not the V6. From my own experience, on my 04 V6, I thought for sure this was the issue causing the burning oil smell and occasional smoke until I actually looked and found no evidence of such. Then I found a post about a more common issue with the V6 is the 2 big O-rings on the back of the intake, they dry up and crack and leak oil down onto the hot engine/exhaust. I also have a P0420, but its intermittent so I haven't bothered with it yet. It was probably caused by those bad O-rings though.

I never had the shaking issue that you describe, that does sound more like a misfire, but you would probably get a misfire code and possibly flashing check engine light if that were the case. What I would do is go under the hood and check for yourself on the drivers side of the engine by pulling the plug wires and coils and see if theres any evidence of oil or just if anything looks bad. This is fairly easy to do on the drivers side but near impossible on the passenger side without taking the plenum off. The drivers side should give you a good picture of whats going on though. If you take it to a shop and tell them its the coils and plugs they will do that and charge you whether that is the problem or not.

My main point in writing this is to say don't just assume its the coils/plugs because everyone has that problem and/or its really common for these cars. Do a little checking for yourself and as others have said, posting specific codes will get you more specific advice. Autozone will do that for free.
 
fpcurro said:
I never had the shaking issue that you describe, that does sound more like a misfire, but you would probably get a misfire code and possibly flashing check engine light if that were the case. What I would do is go under the hood and check for yourself on the drivers side of the engine by pulling the plug wires and coils and see if theres any evidence of oil or just if anything looks bad. This is fairly easy to do on the drivers side but near impossible on the passenger side without taking the plenum off. The drivers side should give you a good picture of whats going on though. If you take it to a shop and tell them its the coils and plugs they will do that and charge you whether that is the problem or not.

My main point in writing this is to say don't just assume its the coils/plugs because everyone has that problem and/or its really common for these cars. Do a little checking for yourself and as others have said, posting specific codes will get you more specific advice. Autozone will do that for free.
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Failing coils RARELY trigger a CEL. I had a #4 (V8 but applies to the V6) coil failing causing an ETC Failsafe condition. The CEL never illuminated and my trouble code was a failure of the ETB. Had I replaced the throttle body, at considerable expense, I would have not fixed the condition. Like the battery failing, coil failures cause all kinds of odd symptoms.
 
fpcurro said:
From what I understand, the coil/plug issue is caused by the valve cover gaskets leaking oil down into the plug wells and causing problems with the coils. ...
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Your understanding is incorrect, but it's what Ford thought at first too. When this first started, they found a lot of defective coils and a lot of coils soaked with oil due to defective valve cover gaskets. They assumed that the latter caused the former. After they solved the valve cover gasket problem, they found that they were still having coil failures at about the same rate. It turns out that the coil problem is due to failure of the epoxy inside the coil.

All of my coil failures have been without any oil or water on the coils. My valve cover gaskets haven't leaked (yet) on either of my LSes. Only once did a coil failure trigger a flashing check engine light and leave a misfire code. All the others were too marginal for the PCM to detect, but they were a problem anyway.
 
joegr said:
All of my coil failures have been without any oil or water on the coils. My valve cover gaskets haven't leaked (yet) on either of my LSes. Only once did a coil failure trigger a flashing check engine light and leave a misfire code. All the others were too marginal for the PCM to detect, but they were a problem anyway.
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V6 or V8?
 
The cat is getting replaced Thursday. As for the shaking when you start it - someone tell me this, does that indicate a coil issue, or if the engine is misfiring due to bad coils, would the car continue to misfire when it is being driven? In my case, once the engine is warm, there is no more vibration.
 
ElGatoBlanco said:
The cat is getting replaced Thursday. As for the shaking when you start it - someone tell me this, does that indicate a coil issue, or if the engine is misfiring due to bad coils, would the car continue to misfire when it is being driven? In my case, once the engine is warm, there is no more vibration.
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It could be coils, of course. However, in your case it is more likely that it is an air (vacuum) leak making the mixture too lean when cold. I would check the PCV plumbing and the o-ring seals for the IMRC valves.
 
If you have to replace the coils you should replace the plugs as well. With a V6 you must remove the upper intake manifold to get to the coils on the right side so plugs are a no brainer if coils are replaced.

You can check the shaking with the steering wheel by rotating the tires front to rear. if the shaking is gone or different, you have a balancing problem.

Good luck with this one.
 
joegr said:
It could be coils, of course. However, in your case it is more likely that it is an air (vacuum) leak making the mixture too lean when cold. I would check the PCV plumbing and the o-ring seals for the IMRC valves.
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Is there a way for me to check whether it is a vacuum leak or coils?
 
The quote for replacing coils and plugs was $1000. that was the cheapest - dealer wanted 1300. Sounds like a lot for an "easy job". Of course they are charging me $125 per coil pack.

I'm no mechanic, but I think I am about to have to become one. Too much $$ out the window going to shops. If I determine I need coils, I am going to have to try doing it myself. My mechanical experience is limited to oil changes and changing tires and batteries. I did manage to do a brake job once with the help of a Haynes manual, that's about it.

Sooooooooooooooooooo.... is there a Haynes manual for the 2005 LS? I was looking online but could not find one. I am going to need some pics/diagrams otherwise I'll just be staring blankly into the engine compartment looking like a confused dog.

Second - I have a socket wrench set, and basic household tools - screwdrivers, drill, HAMMER, etc... is there anything else I will need?

Third - can someone recommend a good set of coil packs? Preferably not costing 125 each - a link would be awesome.
 
If you are set on replacing the coils and plugs, I would get them from Rock Auto where they are significantly cheaper. Its not the easiest job because the intake plenum needs to be removed to get at the passenger side. This procedure is outlined in this post

Something you should definitely be checking on a V6 is the IMTV O-rings on the back of the plenum. These will cost you less than $10 and can be done yourself relatively easily. This procedure is outlined in this post Part number is in there too, get it from Tasca Parts for the cheapest price or your local dealer to get it quick.
 
don't do the cats until you do the coils. all the issues you said and since we didn't get the codes from you yet does not sound like a cat issue. the dealers most of the times get the LS troubleshooting wrong. I recently had one of my climate seats not working and took it to the dealer they replaced the climate controls $750 and then when that didn't they replaced the seat blower motor $300. at the end it was just duct was crushed and all it took them was some duct tape and they didn't even know I had to tell them luckily i have warranty and that's why i let them do it. so don't do the cats until you do the coils / rubber elbow and possibly the 0-rings here is a code to get the coils from advance auto parts they are not as good as the motorcraft but they have lifetime warrenty and with the LS you will need them since they will go bad no matter what you get.

the code is MY6 and you can get all the coils for $275. and if you need a local shop to do it maybe another $200 bucks for labor or just do it yourself.
 
Thanks for the tips. The code I got from Auto Zone was P0430. The explanation given for the code (by auto zone) was pretty vague, it pointed to about a half dozen things. I then took the vehicle to a Lincoln Dealership to have them pinpoint the exact problem. After initially explaining what was going on, the service advisor was fairly convinced it would be coils, but after the inspection was completed, he came back telling me the LH cat was clogged. They quoted me $1241 to replace that cat. I went to Tires plus who quoted me $1281 for BOTH cats. I opted to have them only fix the one that the dealer told me was clogged, for six hundred and some change. I think once they have the cat off the vehicle tomorrow I will ask them to show me what the cat looks like so I can see for myself how bad it really is.

I understand what you are saying about not fixing the cat first, but the car will not be driven more than a few miles before I get after coils or whatever else, or maybe I will get lucky and it really is just a bad cat....(wishful thinking). I am definitely not going to pay $125 per coil like I was quoted, I will buy the coils myself and find a shop to install them since looking at that procedure it looks like I'd be getting in a bit over my head. I may ask tires plus to check out those O-rings if they don't want too much to do it, otherwise it seems I might be able to handle that one myself. They are also going to check the balancing of the tires for free, since they just did an alignment and agree the car should not suddenly start shaking after an alignment and brake job when it did not shake before.

Question - if during the process of replacing the coils, they do find oil on the boot - this means I have to replace the valve cover gaskets, correct? How much additional labor is involved with that beyond what's already required for replacing the coils?
 
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