460 N/A HP 298 stroker

[Don Pfau]

Let me add I've owned High torque Small and big blocks. I've owed high cammed high HP big and small blocks. In the old day on the street it was hard to beet my favorite a high torque big block. But now days it is a light weight supercharged small block. Mild mannered luxury street performance with instantaneous kick in the a$$ performance on demand. The best of both worlds. In perfect Harmony with with the type of car Mark VIIIs are. Plus there more efficient in gas mileage. The Shelby gets better gas mileage. My mark gets better gas mileage than any high performance LS and will out run any stock one produced. You would be shocked at what a mild and smooth street performer my Mark VIII is. with the M/T in the rear you never here tire squeal and it very seldom spins and unless you are turning it is well manner and always goes straight and although it shifts fast it is never jerky it is like a CV drive. Smooth continuous power.

 

[SwedishMark]

I wasn't really talking about production engines.
What I meant was this.
Lets say you have a Chevy 350. You want 700hp out of it.
Throw a turbo on it and you're more than half way there.
Getting 700hp out of it without forced induction cost a lot more money and requires more skill.

And also, having to choose between a turbo/supercharged 350 with 700hp and an N/A 350 with 700hp my descision is clear, the N/A is in my opinion (notice, in my opinion) a lot more awesome.
Some people just thinks it's more fun to drive N/A and building a high powered N/A small block because it takes a lot of money and knowledge. Some people are willing to pay extra for the same thing.
For some there's no point of going the easy route all the time. It's the challenge!

For example watch this Nova.
12000 rpm nova - YouTube
He could've bored and stroked a 396/whatever but he chose to do something difficult, something new.
That's what I meant with my first post

 

[2002WRXSTi]

I wasn't really talking about production engines.
What I meant was this.
Lets say you have a Chevy 350. You want 700hp out of it.
Throw a turbo on it and you're more than half way there.
Getting 700hp out of it without forced induction cost a lot more money and requires more skill.

And also, having to choose between a turbo/supercharged 350 with 700hp and an N/A 350 with 700hp my descision is clear, the N/A is in my opinion (notice, in my opinion) a lot more awesome.
Some people just thinks it's more fun to drive N/A and building a high powered N/A small block because it takes a lot of money and knowledge. Some people are willing to pay extra for the same thing.
For some there's no point of going the easy route all the time. It's the challenge!

For example watch this Nova.
12000 rpm nova - YouTube
He could've bored and stroked a 396/whatever but he chose to do something difficult, something new.
That's what I meant with my first post

Problem is a 700HP NA is not going to last long or be a nice street driver engine. A Forced induction engine can do it and still last a long time as you don't have to rev it to death to make the HP.

Also I have been there when they were testing the large diameter Jesel roller lifters on a 281ci SBC with BUICK heads for durability. It was held wide open on the dyno till the crank finally broke but the valve train was fine. That 12,000rpm Nova does not sound anywhere near 12,000rpm

 

[Don Pfau]

That and the even the above mentioned modular engine is by no means a practical affordable reliable street car like I and the vast majority desire. You could buy my whole car for less then they have in just engine components in that Nova that probably won't last for a whole season. They make engines like that because or rules and classes of racing just like nascars restricter plate racing. Nobody intentionally puts on a restricter plate or would ever research restricter plates engines on there own with out the rules. Sorry but I think it is more stupid than hard.

 

[lobird91]

I don't think forced induction is any easier or cheaper than a NA motor, and in most cases you want to build the best NA engine for your application before you throw boost at it. I use forced induction because it is the way to make either
A) More horsepower than possible N/A or
B) More streetable horsepower than possible NA

Most of my vehicles have some form of forced induction and I haven't personally seen too many 500hp NA Buick V6s or 1100+hp NA smallblock fords out driving the streets so I guess I must be doing something right....

-Alan

 

[Markviiiedrea]

That makes me horny....there, that’s proof money can buy me happiness.

 

[Don Pfau]

A stock engine can make more power cheaper and in general last longer by supercharging as opposed to going into the engine trying to produce equal power N/A. And from what I've seen those who go into the engine to try and match that kind of power run into far more problems. PS provided you do some research as to what are safe limits for that engine.

 

[Robot]

A stock engine can make more power cheaper and in general last longer by supercharging as opposed to going into the engine trying to produce equal power N/A. And from what I've seen those who go into the engine to try and match that kind of power run into far more problems. PS provided you do some research as to what are safe limits for that engine.

I concur. That's why AMGs are so inexspensive now. That being said, there needs to be more attention paid to maintenance to keep that pressurized engine alive.

 

[SwedishMark]

Wait why are we talking about reliability?
I was talking about driving pleasure! Not if it will last 200k miles or not.
Every high performance engine breaks, it's just a matter of time.
If you drive it hard, it will break. End of story. But using quality stuff and engineer might postpone the soon-to-come breakdown.
Ofcourse it depends on the driver too. But hey, I wouldn't build a 700hp machine for showoff, I'd drive the hell out of it. That's what it's meant for.

And the whole "streetable" depends on who you talk to.
I love cars that's a challenge to drive. For example my fathers T-bird with a detroit locker in the rear and a cheramic "on/off" clutch. It's extremely difficult to drive, you need all of your concentration to get the car rolling.
But why drive it on the street?
Because you can that's why! It's not easy, but it works! It's the most fun I've had in a car so far. Love driving it over his 03 Terminator with 200hp more and is piss easy to drive.
If car doesn't overheat and such, it's streetable.


But yeah, I was trying to express my love for N/A smallblocks in the first place
I went the easy way and bought a Procharger for my T-bird. It will definetly be extremely fun as supercharged, but if I'd have the money I would so much rather put a 408w in it.

 

[Don Pfau]

My view is just different. I picked My Mark VIII over My Cobra for power, comfort, ease of you, control, and reliability, I'm getting older so the faster something is the more important ease of control is and I just like the comfort. I had my share of cars that could barely idle at 1,200 rpms and you would have to tighten all the bolts once a week. It was fun but no thanks. Example ; Just out of high school I had a 65, 289 Mustang 4 speed. I had a friend who owned a speed shop/ inspection station. He built and ran a Nova with a 327 and told me if I could beat his Nova he would put a sticker on it. Needless to say it got a sticker on it despite it breaking a dozen inspection laws. But like I said no more

 

[SwedishMark]

I'm still only 20 so I'm all into cars that can't even idle correctly, been driving that all summer. Love having to constantly keep the car alive at red lights.
My Lincoln is just a winter beater and during the summer the fun cars comes out to play

 

[BIG ROLLER]

He could've bored and stroked a 396/whatever but he chose to do something difficult, something new.
That's what I meant with my first post

I think the same thing evry time I see a car at a car show with something other than a SBC or BBC. I have seen way to many 30's to 40's Ford's, Buick's, Pontiac's, Oldsmobile's, etc., with SBC's or BBC's in them. And of course even at the drag strip. But when ever I see those cars with the correct engines, i.e, Ford in a Ford, Pontiac in a Pontiac, you get the idea, that is something different. And even so because that engine is most likely the stock engine that has been built and freshend up and not a SBC, BBC or LS crate engine because they wanted to do something "different" and keep it brand loyal. Even though it has been just as easy to do the same with a Ford these days.

That said even though I would love to buld my own engine like the 5.3 in the video the Coyote 5.0 is just to damn tempting. So long as I build that engine up also I would feel a lot better.

That and the even the above mentioned modular engine is by no means a practical affordable reliable street car like I and the vast majority desire. You could buy my whole car for less then they have in just engine components in that Nova that probably won't last for a whole season. They make engines like that because or rules and classes of racing just like nascars restricter plate racing. Nobody intentionally puts on a restricter plate or would ever research restricter plates engines on there own with out the rules. Sorry but I think it is more stupid than hard.

I don't know what the engine idles at but with it reaching peak power at only 6,100 rpm. Before it would have taken 7,000+ rpm to reach that much horsepower in a Modular engine. I think with slightly smaller cam shafts it would still make 500 horsepower and put the torque lower at around 4,100 rpm it could be very streetable.

I would like to hear what Driller has to say with comparison with his B headed 5.3 stroker.

I don't think forced induction is any easier or cheaper than a NA motor, and in most cases you want to build the best NA engine for your application before you throw boost at it. I use forced induction because it is the way to make either
A) More horsepower than possible N/A or
B) More streetable horsepower than possible NA

Most of my vehicles have some form of forced induction and I haven't personally seen too many 500hp NA Buick V6s or 1100+hp NA smallblock fords out driving the streets so I guess I must be doing something right....

-Alan

For the street most guys build their engines for a given amount of power and not something outrageous because they want a good powerband that can be streetable enough to cruise in. The 5.3 Modular engine in the video makes about the same amount of power as a 347 SBF stroker just that the 347 will make better torque.

I haven't seen many 1,100 horspower small blacks running around on the street either but I can say the same for big blocks.

That makes me horny....there, that’s proof money can buy me happiness.

This is the best comment. I f-ing love it. :lol:

A stock engine can make more power cheaper and in general last longer by supercharging as opposed to going into the engine trying to produce equal power N/A. And from what I've seen those who go into the engine to try and match that kind of power run into far more problems. PS provided you do some research as to what are safe limits for that engine.

It is all in the tune. With the proper tune it could last a long time.

I concur. That's why AMGs are so inexspensive now. That being said, there needs to be more attention paid to maintenance to keep that pressurized engine alive.

Not all AMG engines are forced inducted. Have you seen the C63 AMG?

 

[SwedishMark]

Talking about AMG Mercs, my friend has a CLK55 AMG and that thing hauls ass bone stock. And not to talk about his cousins CLK63 AMG... They're beasts

 

[Robot]

Not all AMG engines are forced inducted. Have you seen the C63 AMG?

Yes, that is a very serious, very built, NA engine. I really suspect that car is given away at a loss. Just a few years ago, that level of performance could be had for say, hmmm, 1/4 million bucks? So, they sell that thing for just over $100K? Still, back then it was all about the big 12s that were so complicated they had to be sent to specific tuners to have work done. You're right.

 

[lobird91]

For the street most guys build their engines for a given amount of power and not something outrageous because they want a good powerband that can be streetable enough to cruise in. The 5.3 Modular engine in the video makes about the same amount of power as a 347 SBF stroker just that the 347 will make better torque.

I haven't seen many 1,100 horspower small blacks running around on the street either but I can say the same for big blocks.

These statements prove my point. There is much more to a steet engine than horsepower, especially peak horsepower. The mod motor is only making 236hp@4300 rpm. Any car this went in would suck to drive on anything but a racetrack and in something heavy like a Mark it would be miserable. Now take a stock long block 03 Cobra with a ported blower and bolt ons and compare it at pretty much any point on the graph and the built NA motor is being out performed AT THE TIRES. Not only is it making more power and torque it is doing so while still idling at 900 rpm and being able to drive across country.

As for the 1100+ horsepower small block, you will probably never see one that isn't blown they just can't do it. My little 347 is probably only making 650hp or so off boost (never been dynoed NA) but hook the blower belt up and boom 1121hp to the tires and nothing about its streetability changed from the ~650hp it made NA. You can argue about it all day long but the proof is already out there look at the Terminators, GT500s, ZL1s, ZR1s, Ecoboosts....more power same gas mileage and drive ability.

-Alan

 

[Don Pfau]

I don't know what the engine idles at but with it reaching peak power at only 6,100 rpm. Before it would have taken 7,000+ rpm to reach that much horsepower in a Modular engine. I think with slightly smaller cam shafts it would still make 500 horsepower and put the torque lower at around 4,100 rpm it could be very streetable.

I would like to hear what Driller has to say with comparison with his B headed 5.3 stroker.

A N/A engine can not match the power of a blown engine and be near as streetable or reliable all things being equal. Period. That was the subject. You seem intent on telling everyone how it is but don't seem to know ??? Plus if I'm not mistaken Driller built a stong enough engine that supercharging it was a option he was considering down the road. He may end up the fastest supercharged mark VIII when that happens. My Mark VIII is a completely stock engine with a Vortech supercharger with a best ET of 11.66@120mph and there is more in it as we are shifting it at just 5,600 rpm which is below its peak in horse power. I"m pretty sure Drillers Mark N/A will not run faster than that and I'd be willing to bet Driller has spent more on his. However if he gets it worked out and put on that supercharger or maybe even NOS I'm certain he could run faster than that.

 

[2002WRXSTi]

To put to rest the you have to build an engine to make HP even with Boost. This company is building a Twin Turbo kit that when bolted on a Coyote go's 10's in a heavy Mustang That was even with a stock auto tranny!
http://twinturbo50.com/
A bit of work and they are into the 9's

Making HP with Boost is so much eisier on an engine it is not even funny. I have had this argument with NOS people years ago and a NA car just can't be DD streetable in those ET and Trap speed ranges.

 

[driller]

I don't know what the engine idles at but with it reaching peak power at only 6,100 rpm. Before it would have taken 7,000+ rpm to reach that much horsepower in a Modular engine. I think with slightly smaller cam shafts it would still make 500 horsepower and put the torque lower at around 4,100 rpm it could be very streetable.

I would like to hear what Driller has to say with comparison with his B headed 5.3 stroker.

I've yet to get a good dyno but the 5.3L stroker motor was built to make 500HP N/A at the crank. It's been a terrible year to find time for it and it seems every opportunity has had something gone wrong and resulted in a setback.

One of the yet to be answered questions is the RPM capabilty of the stock EEC-IV PCM. What testing has been done shows the car is still building power at 6000 rpms. As it is shifting at 6300-6450 for the shifts to complete at 7000 rpms, the ignition seems to be breaking up.

While there is still a lot of tuning to do, the car is very streetable at stock weight plus a 4200 rpm converter and 4.30s. The car is begging for tuning the shift points and lockup on the converter. The A/F could be better with some tweaking on the MAF transfer function once all is said and done.

Plus if I'm not mistaken Driller built a stong enough engine that supercharging it was a option he was considering down the road. He may end up the fastest supercharged mark VIII when that happens. ...

I"m pretty sure Drillers Mark N/A will not run faster than that and I'd be willing to bet Driller has spent more on his. However if he gets it worked out and put on that supercharger or maybe even NOS I'm certain he could run faster than that.

Turbo maybe... supercharger, I doubt it. :shifty:

If and when the bugs are sorted out in N/A form, the current plan is a BIG progressive hit of nitrous. At the current rate of progress, it will be next year at the earliest.

 

[Don Pfau]

Driller have you tried closing up the spark plug gap some ??

 

[driller]

Driller have you tried closing up the spark plug gap some ??

As a matter of fact, it was one of the suggestions by Don LaSota. And yes, I did just that before my last outing where I blew a brake line after the 2nd pass.

I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

 

[Markviiiedrea]

As a matter of fact, it was one of the suggestions by Don LaSota. And yes, I did just that before my last outing where I blew a brake line after the 2nd pass.

I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

How do you you blow a brake line when trying to race? An over agressive burn out?

 

[driller]

How do you you blow a brake line when trying to race? An over agressive burn out?

I'm on the brakes hard at the staging lights while stalling the converter to launch.

 

[Don Pfau]

When I do a burn out I have to stand on the brakes with both feet to get it stopped before the starting line so I do not have to back it up. I think part of that is due to the supercharger and lack of vacuum ??

 

[BIG ROLLER]

A N/A engine can not match the power of a blown engine and be near as streetable or reliable all things being equal. Period. That was the subject. You seem intent on telling everyone how it is but don't seem to know ??? Plus if I'm not mistaken Driller built a stong enough engine that supercharging it was a option he was considering down the road. He may end up the fastest supercharged mark VIII when that happens. My Mark VIII is a completely stock engine with a Vortech supercharger with a best ET of 11.66@120mph and there is more in it as we are shifting it at just 5,600 rpm which is below its peak in horse power. I"m pretty sure Drillers Mark N/A will not run faster than that and I'd be willing to bet Driller has spent more on his. However if he gets it worked out and put on that supercharger or maybe even NOS I'm certain he could run faster than that.

I am not trying to say that a N/A engine could be as streetable as a F/I engine when being built equal at all. What I am saying is that when someone does build a N/A stroker or even just basic bolt ons that they build it for a certain amount of power that could be very streetable for every day driving. Like I had said the 5.3 stroker in the video to me looks like it could be very streetable even for a heavy car like a M8.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised that because it is a 03/04 headed engine that it could be even more streeable than Driller's B headed 5.3 stroker since it would most likely take more RPM to reach the same amount of power.

Not everyone wants a turbo or blower all the time. And now making 450 - 500N/A horsepower with a Mod motor has become a little easier and cheaper. A power adder is great but it's not for everyone. I am 50/50. I would love to have both.

And yes I am a bench racer. For now but hopefully not for too much longer.

I've yet to get a good dyno but the 5.3L stroker motor was built to make 500HP N/A at the crank. It's been a terrible year to find time for it and it seems every opportunity has had something gone wrong and resulted in a setback.

One of the yet to be answered questions is the RPM capabilty of the stock EEC-IV PCM. What testing has been done shows the car is still building power at 6000 rpms. As it is shifting at 6300-6450 for the shifts to complete at 7000 rpms, the ignition seems to be breaking up.

While there is still a lot of tuning to do, the car is very streetable at stock weight plus a 4200 rpm converter and 4.30s. The car is begging for tuning the shift points and lockup on the converter. The A/F could be better with some tweaking on the MAF transfer function once all is said and done.



Turbo maybe... supercharger, I doubt it. :shifty:

If and when the bugs are sorted out in N/A form, the current plan is a BIG progressive hit of nitrous. At the current rate of progress, it will be next year at the earliest.

What are the specs on your engine Drilller?

If you did go with a turbo would you stick with the current compression?

I could see E85 in the future if you did.

Have you ever thought about going to C heads?

 

[driller]

What are the specs on your engine Drilller?

If you did go with a turbo would you stick with the current compression?

I could see E85 in the future if you did.

Have you ever thought about going to C heads?

Boss 5.0L Modular Cast Iron Block
Kellog 4340 Stroker crankshaft
Manley 4340 H-beam rods w/ HS wrist pins
Diamond 2618 FlatTop pistons w/ valve reliefs
File-fit Moly Rings
ARP hardware
323 cu.in. displacement
Fox Lake Stage 3 "B" heads
Upgraded valvetrain
Custom grind Bullet cams / 235* @ 0.050" - 0.480" lift - 113* LSA
IMRC deletes
Canton windage tray
Romac SFI damper
PRW SFI flexplate
42# injectors
Lightning 90mm MAF
Ported/polished throttle body

If I went turbo, it would likely be the same compression (11.5:1) but run on race gas. Not sure about E85 but nothing's out of the question.

C heads have been contemplated as well as a different intake. Current heads and intake are the same as the car had with the stock block.

Changes are currently being contemplated for the off season. We'll have to wait and see what develops.