4.6 swap in ls????

ILLS said:
If ALL of those steps have been discussed here before then I sure didn't see it. I did see brief mention of one or two of those steps, but not all. And in nowhere near as much detail. Please point out the locations of where all of this information was talked about 100000 times before as I surely do not want to waste space by reposting... All I was trying to do was help some of these people out buddy. :cool:
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Thanks for saying what I was about to ILLS, I feel exactly the same way.

Quik, I appologize that you have to answer the same questions quite a bit, and that as a 7 day old LS owner with two small kids, I haven't had time to read EVERY post in the 101 pages on this site. Congrats on your supercharger mod, but not all of us are at your skill or knowledge level. I respect your contributions to this forum and your knowledge, you have been a great help to me already. Just cut the rest of us a little slack. I'm used to working on 70's cars, not 00's.
 
jontz - sorry - nothing against you at all - no dumb questions, I have a tendency to grind people to search, but hopefully offset that with the help I also offer.

ILLS is actually a former member named Rocket5929 - very knowledgable guy, sometimes looses his message in his delivery - I am similar.

Rocket - not trying to bust on you - I understand it seemed that way. Glad at least I got under your skin enough that you responded - where have you gone?

Why the name change?

You did answer the question on - have you done more to your LS past the N2O?

Naming a bunch of third party companies that can build custom parts or do one-off rebuild (all very well known companies) - you should start a new thread on rebuilding the 3.9L - since no one has done it.

Can we purchase any of the little bits - or is it all custom....?
 
Quik LS said:
jontz - sorry - nothing against you at all - no dumb questions, I have a tendency to grind people to search, but hopefully offset that with the help I also offer.
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It's all good. I have answered quite a few of my questions by searching, so I am trying :D

Thanks again for all the help you have given me already, it doesn't go unnoticed.
 
I just printed post #23.

If and when someone decides to do this, kudos to you. A 400+rwhp LS would be freakin' awesome.

Rocket/ILLS, could someone bring their LS to you, have you and your shop do all the things you said? Because I know that I'm not ever close to the level of mechanical knowledge as Quik or others out there - and I'm not alone. People pay for convenience...
 
i greatly appreciate everyones input. especially from quik and ILLS. you guys have given me alot to ponder over. the only reason i wanna do the engine is cuz i still have a loan out on the car and the stock motor is now cracked so, if im gonna be forced to pay for the rest of the loan like i know i prolly will then im just gonna keep the car and have away with it and see what i can do with it
 
and the reason im choosing the 4.6 is because i know more about mustangs than i do about lincoln. yes im a mustang enthusiast, there i said it.
 
jgfish97 said:
ILLS, could someone bring their LS to you, have you and your shop do all the things you said? Because I know that I'm not ever close to the level of mechanical knowledge as Quik or others out there - and I'm not alone. People pay for convenience...
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Yes. I already had a fella from California contact me about doing a custom STS turbo for his LS but it seems his plans have fallen through for now. I do lots of custom work at my shop from custom power adders (turbo, nitrous, superchargers) to regular turbo & s/c kit installs as well. I also do the regular stuff such as engines and bolt-ons too. And I am also an SCT custom tuner so I can tune any combo I build too. It lends well to be a tuner when doing the custom projects that I have done, and continue to prefer to do.

One thing to keep in mind is that I do not plan to offer a turbo kit for the LS as there just is not enough of a market to warrant one. Custom one-off installations based upon my design? Not a problem.

Just to keep things clear in here... My main purpose by coming into this thread was to just provide information to some people who seemed to need it. I do not want to be mistaken for advertising as I am not a supporting vendor in here and do not feel that is right. If anyone needs anything done I would be willing to take care of you. Good luck on the modding everyone. :cool:
 
Quik LS said:
Naming a bunch of third party companies that can build custom parts or do one-off rebuild (all very well known companies) - you should start a new thread on rebuilding the 3.9L - since no one has done it.

Can we purchase any of the little bits - or is it all custom....?
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Sorry, didn't notice this post till after my previous reply.

Well lets face it, I sure as heck do not have a CNC machine sitting in my garage. I keep wishing but it never seems to appear. Yes, Oliver (or any other reputable connecting rod maker of choice) will need to make the connecting rods. Same goes for the pistons though I would install them and the connecting rods.. Level Ten builds a mean 5R tranny nowadays that will more than handle any LS owners tranny needs. The head porting would best be done at a reputable head porter (not just metal hogger). Subcontracting is what happens in the performance world. A shop does what it is capable of doing and has a machinist or other specialty place do certain other key jobs such as making custom machined parts and whatnot.

Other than those obvious things that would be handled by third party companies I do everything else. Extremely complicated/custom builds are nothing new to me. I have done quite a bit of custom fabrication from one-off parts manufacture and welding to parts design too, just no custom machining done in house as of yet.

What do you mean by "purchase any of the little bits"???
 
CTX-SLPR said:
From the way I understand it, it would require adding the LS sensors and controllers onto the swap motor to make it work or be able to dig deep enough into the computer to recalibrate the expectation tables for the different sensor to allow the computer to interpret different data coming from say the different cam sensors used between the Gen I and Gen II LS's and thier Jaguar counterparts.
From a V6 standpoint it is getting the 3.5L sensors to talk to the 3.0L computer in a way that is intellegiable, or putting the 3.0L sensors on the 3.5L. Given enough creativity it could potentially be done. My personnel parallel is I'm taking an OBDII system off of a FWD GM supercharged V6 and trying to get it to run a classic Grand National motor. GM is a bit more modular in thier approach to controllers but I will have to X out the tranny fault codes since I'll have a hydromechanical transmission rather than an electrohydromechanical one like the original application had.
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So then you have Charles Beyer and DHP on your side!!:D :D
 
chocolat1701 said:
wow.. so it can be done, and how much will this cost almost as much as the car.
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There is an old saying. "You got to pay to play."

Building an LS to go fast will cost much more than it would to build a Mustang to go equally fast. However, it is all in what the particular car enthusiast prefers.
 
Rocket - good to see you back posting - you are very knowledgable...

Again - have you done anything other than the bolt-ons and N2O? (3rd time I asked)......
 
PGA2B said:
So then you have Charles Beyer and DHP on your side!!:D :D
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Charles helps me a bit but not a whole lot since I'm a minor drop in the bucket. However if I can get my hands on some Aussie RWD Supercharged ECM's for him he might be a bit more helpful and crack them so I can use them on my project despite the fact I'm using a TH200-4R instead of a 4L60E.
I'm going to be using DHP because its a bit better suited to the V6 stuff however I wish I could use both DHP and HPTuners since they both have little bits of stuff that the other won't get to but the encryption schemes are such that you can't take a mod code from one and then use the other to get to the bits that the other can't.


Onto to this tread... why would you use an intercooler with an STS system? Wouldn't that bring your tubing volume up so high that you'd get rediculous turbo lag not to mention the added weight of all that extra plumbing to get to the front of the car with the air then upto the TB? Doesn't STS claim the pipe itself is a goodenought passive intercooler? I'm sure Razor (www.alkycontrol.com) can hook you up with a progressive Alky system that adds no added volume and works as both chemical intercooler and detonation supressant with the alcohol's higher octane rating. Throw in some extra alky with some nitrous for a spool aid and you'd have power across the board and with a good electronic booste controller you'd be able to keep it easily tameable for the street and then whack it hard for the track of stoplight punk smackdown.
 
chocolat1701 said:
wow.. so it can be done, and how much will this cost almost as much as the car.
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when you say - it can be done - do you mean 'someone can custom make you pistons and rods, someone are harden the transmission, someone can improve the drinvetrain...., etc'

of course.... there are many aftermarket companies that can create one-off pieces for you, they were always there.....
 
CTX-SLPR said:
Onto to this tread... why would you use an intercooler with an STS system? Wouldn't that bring your tubing volume up so high that you'd get rediculous turbo lag not to mention the added weight of all that extra plumbing to get to the front of the car with the air then upto the TB? Doesn't STS claim the pipe itself is a goodenought passive intercooler? I'm sure Razor (www.alkycontrol.com) can hook you up with a progressive Alky system that adds no added volume and works as both chemical intercooler and detonation supressant with the alcohol's higher octane rating. Throw in some extra alky with some nitrous for a spool aid and you'd have power across the board and with a good electronic booste controller you'd be able to keep it easily tameable for the street and then whack it hard for the track of stoplight punk smackdown.
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Yes, remote mounted turbos do tend to have a natural intercooling affect from the length of the intake charge pipe running under the vehicle. Remember, just because it is remote mounted does not mean that the ACT's cannot benefit further from being cooled by a FMIC. If you look at the total volume of all the tubing and the IC combined it really is a small space to fill when you have a turbocharger feeding 540+ cfm of air into the intake.

With a properly sized turbo even a remote system will spool very quickly. The thing to remember is that a remote turbo will have a much smaller turbine A/R than a front mounted turbo will have. That is what will allow a rear mounted turbo to still spool at a very reasonable rpm and also make good peak power too.

Aluminum tubing (for the intake) gives great heat transfer and also is VERRRY light. The extra tubing is literally maybe a total of 3-5 pounds if that. The FMIC about 18 pounds but worth every bit for the added power and safety that it will give.

While alky injection is GREAT and does definately have its place in the racing and street vehicle world it should never be a substitute for an actual intercooler itself, especially in a street or street/strip vehicle. It should be used to further cool ACT's so as to either make a combo less prone to detonation at a given spark advance, or to allow that person to run more spark advance to make more power.
 
Even STS claims that the piping on the rear mount only acts as 50% of an intercooler...
Built-in intercooling. Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency. There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.
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remember - every pound the you squeeze the air raise the temperature form 15 - 18 degrees - so even at 5psi you raise the intake charge 90degree above the incoming temp - so you got to cool it.
 
ssls1787 said:
and the reason im choosing the 4.6 is because i know more about mustangs than i do about lincoln. yes im a mustang enthusiast, there i said it.
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and if you are going to really put in a lot of wrench time - the 4.6 has a huge aftermarket for parts and knowledge out there. It not a bad choice - just very difficult to execute and mate into the LS.
 
Quik LS said:
Even STS claims that the piping on the rear mount only acts as 50% of an intercooler...
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Yep, there are many STS systems out there running just the intake tubing as the intercooler and doing just fine while on mild boost. But, for a vehicle like the LS that is limited to a certain amount of boost due to its higher CR you want whatever boost going into your intake as cool as possible so as to be able to make the most hp per pound of boost.
 
LS4me said:
Your buddy's '92 Bird is pre-OBDII. That alone makes it an apples to oranges comparison. Of course, with enough Andrew Jackson's anything is possible!
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Its not apples to oranges becasue we still had to come up with stand alone electronics. NOTHING stock worked except the gas guage but we made it aftermarket too just to match the rest of the guage cluster. If you were to swap a any motor into an LS that didn't actually come in an LS, you would have to do all of the same work.

Stuff he had to add to make it work...
Aftermarket Speedo with GM sending unit because we used a GM tranny.
Aftermarket Tach with GM sending unilt because its a GM motor
Aftermarket temp, amp etc. because it's all GM stuff under the hood and it wouldn't talk to the Ford stuff.
Custom motor mounts
Radiator from a 95-97 Tbird, mounted lower and 4" forward from stock position. and hte 95-97 stock electric fan used.
Custom plumming for coolant and heater hoses
Custom Headers and exhaust.
Custom linkages for the tranny, carb and related such as the kickdown linkage.
Battery relocated to the trunk (already done in our cars)
Custom made fuel lines and related...
Many many more things I'm probably forgetting right now.

If you were to swap a carbed motor, it would be a similar swap regardless of OBD whatever version because it's not going to work anyway.
 
not exactly....

It's one thing to make punch in aftermarket guages - totally different systems here, Your friends car did not use most of the signals as feedback to make adjustments.
  • Aftermarket Speedo with GM sending unit because we used a GM tranny.
  • Aftermarket Tach with GM sending unilt because its a GM motor
  • Aftermarket temp, amp etc. because it's all GM stuff under the hood and it wouldn't talk to the Ford stuff.

The custer, REM, FEM, TC, ...etc in the LS are computer modules - connecting to a databus and inteacting with the other systems as part of a 'larger' computer system. Similar to the way a video card interacts with the databus in a computer....

The REM for example - does everything from controlling the fuel pump to dealing with the rear turn singals... The turn signal lever does not wire directly to the FEM or REM, ... they receive a signal that the turn signal is in the left position and then react accordingly.

The speedo is not a simple gear or magnetic senor that you can tap into a lead somewhere. The PCM reads pulses of the ABS sensors and then sends a signal to the cluster to tell the speedo what to read, ...

This stuff is all fab work (It's impressive work but doesn't make your point)-
  • Custom motor mounts
  • Radiator from a 95-97 Tbird, mounted lower and 4" forward from stock position. and hte 95-97 stock electric fan used.
  • Custom plumming for coolant and heater hoses
  • Custom Headers and exhaust.
  • Custom linkages for the tranny, carb and related such as the kickdown linkage.
  • Battery relocated to the trunk (already done in our cars)
  • Custom made fuel lines and related...
 
So additionally, you'd have to re wire the car. for all lighting, no big deal, just a PITA and another week of labor.

All I'm saying is it can be done. You can put a 4.6L or 5.4L DOHC with a carb, or any motor with a carb in an LS easier and probably cheaper than you can trying to screw around doing it with an EFI motor. You just have to improvise all of your manditory electronics and fab your pieces parts to make it work. The more of the fancy stuff you want to work, the more re-wiring you will have to do.
 
chriswells78 said:
So additionally, you'd have to re wire the car. for all lighting, no big deal, just a PITA and another week of labor.
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I guess I am not being clear... it's not just the lighting - it's all most every system in the car. Most lines run back to the PCM, the PCM then decides what to do, and either does it itself or signals another sub-system to do it. You're making it sound like being creative with a welder will overcome the modem complexities of these types of electronics.

You could completely gut the car, re-wire it with 70's technology - replace everything from the guages to the door locks. if you are pulling the PCM - and you're making a racecar - it will be fine, if it's gonna be for the street - you won't even have an SRS system.

If may be simpler to try and match sensor for senors - like swapping in a new Mustang GT 4.6 - and working through the sensor mismatches, and missing or additional ones.... and then use the SCT software to adjust everything you can.

I agree with you that it can be done - with the right tools, time and money. I think you are over-simplfying it though.
 
those custom companies, could they make a stroker kit to bring the 3.0 up to say 3.5-4.0?
 
the Jag rotating assembly has a 1cm longer stroke (that's why it's a 4.0L vs the LS 3.9L....

but yes all of these types of companies that build one-off custom parts can do anything you need - as long as you have the cash.
 
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