3.9 to 4.6

cammerfe said:
To briefly revisit the 4.6 swap discussion, McLaren prototyped two Gen1 cars for Ford. The major change necessary was to re-design the intake manifold so as to clear the hood. A small run of 4.6 manifolds was cast from magnesium with a lower profile so it was unnecessary to cut the hood. Since the work was a feasibility study for space, I doubt that they bothered to hook-up all the bells and whistles. I saw these cars, far along in the necessary fabricating, during some business at McLaren. And please have no doubt that the Ford Engineering folks are capable of completely integrating the electronics. I am, at present working with SCT to determine the limits of their ability to 'bend' the factory stuff to work with slightly different hardware.
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Have you checked out the problems the Ford engineers had with the One Lap of America LS?
 
Ok Quik, back to the subject of Nitrous. What specific kit do you recommend? I know we talked about pricewise the Venom kit was just more expensive but after looking around (and not being exactly sure what kit is best applied to the LS) I found this Venom kit that seemed to stand out a little to me. Below is the information regarding this kit.
"Venom's Computerized Nitrous Systems maintain the proper air/fuel ratio at any bottle pressure and will terminate the flow of nitrous to the engine should the air fuel ratio become too lean. Nitrous delivery is available by pushing a button while at wide open throttle. A dash mounted L.E.D. informs the system status and/or displays fault codes. Kits monitor the factory O2 sensor to adjust the mixture of fuel and nitrous. The system controls the factory fuel injectors for fuel enrichment to provide the optimum air/fuel ratio when the nitrous is injected. Designed to be used on multi-port EFI systems with or without a return fuel line. Easy installation with no cutting of stock wiring harness required. Kits include a 10-lb bottle (not filled) and all necessary components to install on a fuel injected vehicle."
The kit is listed for $549.99

735-N750-8.gif
 
One Lap was a too-close-to-last-minute operation. 'Burning' a new program to recognize the hardware differences isn't a five minute operation, but it's certainly factory-do-able.

On another subject, I set the Maxton records using a Nitrous Express 'Pro 300' package, but it's quite race-oriented. The Venom kit, above, is a good street system but since it's 'dry' it's limited for horsepower.
KS
 
cammerfe said:
One Lap was a too-close-to-last-minute operation. 'Burning' a new program to recognize the hardware differences isn't a five minute operation, but it's certainly factory-do-able.
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Their only issue wasn't electronics. Besides, when you have access to everything about the car the electronics should be the easy part.
 
I don't think i need a pro race kit. I should be able to get another 100hp out of the Venom kit.
 
GhostLs said:
I don't think i need a pro race kit. I should be able to get another 100hp out of the Venom kit.
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have you used N2O before?
The biggest issue we have with N2O is off-the-line traction. So a progrssive controller helps out a lot. I have always used window switches along side of the WOT switch.

I'm not a fan of dry kits for most modern cars - since the fuel system is design to be 'just enough' for the stock application and you run a real risk of running lean. for an extra 100hp you'll need nearly 40% more fuel....
 
Plus about 5 or 6. The factory fuel system is quite limited. You need, at very least, to use a fuel pump upgrade. A serious effort will require a full re-plumb job! (See photos in 'Land Speed LS' in the HP section.)
KS
 
I ran a NOS system on my 325I about 10 years back and if I remember correctly it did have a fuel system upgrade. I can't remember exactly what all we did, I had alot of help on the mech side of things.
So basically I need to upgrade my fuel pump at minimum, Quik aren't you using a pump from a mustang? What all is required to set that up? I think my plan of action on my 01' is just going to be a tune and a nitrous setup as far as performance goes. I bought an 02' that was t-boned for dirt cheap and I think I'm going to focus on using it for speed mods like the SC and anytthing else that can be done. My 01', i'm going to press forward with body mods and sound system for the most part.
 
one thing to remember- if you have a Gen1 - it uses these crazy air-assisted injectors http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=160897&postcount=195

Ford XW43-9F593-CA
Ford XW4Z 9F593 CA
Motorcraft CM4934
Standard FJ297
Airtex 4G1234
Delphi FJ10533

12 ohm coil with the following flow rates:

Dynamic (2.5ms @ 100Hz): 25.32 g/min 32.88 cc/sec
Static (10ms @ 100Hz): 173.14 g/min 224.85 cc/min

if I am doing my math right -- 224.85 cc/min/10.5 = 21.45 lb hr

To my knowledge - no one has been able to upgrade them using the stock intake manifold. Standard injectors do not fit well in the injector bungs, and you have to remove/plug the air-assist rail.

now if you have a Gen2 - you use more standard injecotrs -> http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=161897&postcount=201 and can swap them.
 
Ok so I have to admit I fall short when it comes to fuel delivery systems. Aside from upgraded fuel rails and things of that nature I never have put to much into learning more about fuel systems. Laziness I guess I had a buddy who did all that stuff so I let him do it and i kept to everything else!
So you said you are running dual pumps, does that do anything different for your MPG? Maybe you can help direct me a little. Say i just want to upgrade my fuel system with pumps and lines and new injectors. Obviously I'll need to stay with the oem injector because I'm not doing anything with the manifold. What about the TB? What can i do with it? Let's just say I want to set this up so I could put spray on it if I decided to. It looks like you just basically added another stock pump and used a Y connector to attach them but how does that work after the pumps? Bigger fuel line? dual lines? Do both pumps go into the tank?
 
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I can walk you through the math to determine the fuel needs - however - you'll always have to upgrade the injectors to get the fuel into the engine.

The fuel pump upgrade is only needed once the injector flow exceeds what the pump can flow. I ran dual pumps isnce I had one laying around and wanted to experiment a little - but the standard upgrade to is determine how much flow you need, size the pump and then simply swap that actual pump to the larger one. You have to be able to maintain 40psi (at the injector nozzle) under load.

Fuel lines are the last piece to worry about until you get to ridiculous amounts of flow.

Most OE injectors are driven to a max of ~ 85% duty cycle - meaning you will reduce their life span and efficiency but can over-drive them a little to get more fuel - but only a very small amount. So the Gen1 issue is - how to upgrade the injectors for more fuel delivery but dealing with an improper fit in the goofy air-assisted intake manifold.

Upgrading the TB - or even porting the OE one a little is an ok step - it will allow a little more air (very little) and the car should be able to compensate by adding a little more fuel. The 3.9L seems very sensitive to airflow speed - and so you have to be careful of simply allowing more air volume in, since it means less air velocity (assuming you are not adding force induction). Slower velocity usually means less torque. So you can pick up a few hp but may lose some torque.
 
Ok so basically I need to start with the injectors before i ever worry about larger fuel pumps. I have heard of guys using injectors out mustangs but i have never been able to get anyone to tell me how they did it.
 
right - injectors first then meansure then pump.

I use 39lbs injectors (that are commonly used in the cobras) - but it's not what car they fit - two things you match for are: electrical connector type and body style. then match your fuel requirements.

Then you need to re-tune your PCM for the new injectors.

The issue is that the standard injectors will not fit properly in the Gen1 intake manifold - I've never heard of anyone getting that to work yet.
 
Well that seems to pretty much eliminate upgrading my fuel system. Which pretty much eliminates the N2O upgrade. Which pretty much leaves me right where i started right? There is no manifold upgrade except the one for the SC right?
 
you can still do the N2O - but use a WET kit - which adds fuel to the N2O in a mixture just before the throttle plate. The fuel comes from a tap to the fuel line (in the engine bay) and is delivered through a special nozzle that mixes it with the N2O. So it does not require an upgrade to the injectors, and usually does not require a fuel pump upgrade unless to your high shot levels. I ran 100shot for a while - and used the stock pump.
 
Alternative

Or you can go clear to the point of substituting methanol for the gasoline, and installing a complete separate fuel system. (See "Land Speed LS" in the performance section.:) :) :) :D )
KS
 
I see what you are saying. So what kit did you use? An NX? What are the power gains off a 100 shot? I'd say i would probably want a Progressive 100 wet shot right?
 
cammerfe said:
Or you can go clear to the point of substituting methanol for the gasoline, and installing a complete separate fuel system. (See "Land Speed LS" in the performance section.:) :) :) :D )
KS
Click to expand...

Ya that's an option too! I read the sticky on it but I don't have any experience with methanol. I think i'd want to be around it and see it in action before I decided if that was how I wanted to blow myself up! Lol really though not bad idea.
 
GhostLs said:
I see what you are saying. So what kit did you use? An NX? What are the power gains off a 100 shot? I'd say i would probably want a Progressive 100 wet shot right?
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I ran a NX 20922 - just a universal wet kit. The shot size is roughly the rwhp gain. I did not use a progressive controller - and blew the tires off of it constantly, so I would add one if I was ever to do it again.

couple of other items to think aboiut if you do this:
- always run 93 octane
- swap in colder copper strap plugs (typically 1 degree colder for every 50hp you add)
- get a wideband - I use an LC-1 from Innovate Motorsports
- you'll need a SCT tuner and a proper tune
 
Quik LS said:
I ran a NX 20922 - just a universal wet kit. The shot size is roughly the rwhp gain. I did not use a progressive controller - and blew the tires off of it constantly, so I would add one if I was ever to do it again.

couple of other items to think aboiut if you do this:
- always run 93 octane
- swap in colder copper strap plugs (typically 1 degree colder for every 50hp you add)
- get a wideband - I use an LC-1 from Innovate Motorsports
- you'll need a SCT tuner and a proper tune
Click to expand...

Not a bad kit for the price. I will definately be looking to do this within the next couple months.
I always use 93 I don't know if you've ever tried to run anything else in your Ls but i thought I'd try it once with Reg 87 and ended up having to syphon nearly the whole 18 gallons back out because my car wouldn't do anything but studder and fall on its face. It would barely run!
What plug do you recommend for a running a 100 shot? I used Bosch for yrs in all my cars but have used NGK in the LS since I've owned it.
Ok so I'm a little familiar with the LC-1 controllers far as function but which kit is necessary or most effective?
*basic LC-1 kit ($199) includes the LC-1, sensor, cd which includes software and manuals, bung and plug, and a serial cable to connect to the PC.
*Standalone Gauge Kit ($329) includes the LC-1, sensor, XD-16 digital gauge, cd which includes software and manuals, bung and plug, and a serial cable to connect to the PC
Is the gauge absolutely necessary or even worth another $129?
As far as the SCT Tuner it's on my list of things to get and will probably actually be the next thing I purchase. I've got to get through todays carrier and gear switch on the LS before I go any further. (Which by the way I will take pictures)
 
the price is not bad for the kit - then you add: remote bottle opener, bottle heater, purge kit, N2O pressure gauge ....you can easily spend $1100 without the progressive controller.

I use the LC-1 basic - since mine is wired into my Livewire - I data log through that, and use it to display the AFR. If you need a gauge, then you'll need the standalone kit. You have to keep an eye on your AFR.

You may want to add a fuel pressure gauge as well....

I run standard copper champion plugs. There still is a debate going on about using platium plug with N2O.
 
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