Non sequitur. Humans murder each other too, yet the Ten Commandments clearly says not to murder. Which way ya wanna go with that one?Homosexuality exists in nature. Animals do it. Therefore it is "natural" and "god made it that way".
Contradicts your own quote above.For the religious zealots; read your bible carefully. It hates gays (kill them) but says nothing of lesbians.
Non sequitur. Humans murder each other too, yet the Ten Commandments clearly says not to murder. Which way ya wanna go with that one?
Contradicts your own quote above.
homosexuality is a religiously forbidden thing, yours [rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, etc.] are societly forbidden.
this is the life quite commonly found in native reserves, yet there is no higher incidence of homosexuality among them.
if you think these are the factors for people becoming gay, then the gay population would be well above what it is now as a percentage.
and it wouldn't explain the many who come from normal idealistic or religious backgrounds. even with strong religious backgrounds, and the moral implications that go with it, some people are just gay. they may hide or run from it for some time, but it comes out.
and you still haven't made any reference to elton john. he stayed drunk and high and even got married to try and run away from his gay fact.
Round and round the argument they go, where they'll stop nobody knows.
Homosexuality exists in nature. Animals do it. Therefore it is "natural" and "god made it that way".
For the religious zealots; read your bible carefully. It hates gays (kill them) but says nothing of lesbians. Why? Because they liked them too. Most will support gay marriage; if the chicks are hot. And have blatant hypocrisy or the Girls Gone Wild videos wouldn't be so very popular.
Have a couple of hot chicks kissing in a bar and the place goes wild with cheers. A couple of unattractive gals or guys do the same and it's an abomination. How convenient. Kill the queers but spring wood when it's gals. Homosexuality cannot be both hot and toxic. Duh.
Brittney's 55 hour marriage, cheating spouses with blind eye partners, or the annulment of the Kennedy marriage after 20 years and two kids isn't tainted by letting a loving couple have their union recognized and legally enriched.
Did any of those affect your unions?
No.
Neither will gay marriage.
Not so very long ago the same tired arguments were used against inter-faith and inter-racial marriages. The world was coming to an end, people would be marrying animals and children, the entire society was going to morally decay and crumble into dust.
Stop the hypocrisy. Let them marry. They are entitled to be as miserable as the rest of us.
No. The argument is that it isn't "natural". Unfortunately for the haters, the evidence shows it is.
Once again man, who wrote the passages, has hypocrisy. Their version of homosexual was male/male only.
Again, read the previous posts. The idea that being gay is in some way "genetic" or "biological" has already been discredited in this thread. If you are going to continue making that argument, you need to prove it, not just assert it. The evidence does not support your position.
Yeah, I intentionally ignored it because it is irrelevant; another red herring. Elton John's sexuality (and the reasons behind it) says nothing about the gay community as a whole. To argue that is another fallacy of composition. You wanna keep pushin it, fine, I will discuss it...
You claim Elton John was basically self-delusional when he was heterosexual. When he dated women, got married, etc., he was really trying to "run away from his gay fact". Well that is a rather self-serving spin, isn't it.
By your own admission, Sir. Elton John had a capacity for self-destructive behavior and self delusion ("he stayed drunk and high...to run away from his gay fact").
Considering the fact that sexuality has been shown to have a strong psychological component, a heterosexual predisposition has been proven to be genetic and natural and a homosexual predisposition has not been reliably shown to be in any way to be genetic or natural it is illogical to conclude that Elton John was being self-delusional when he was heterosexual. It is more logical to conclude that Sir Elton John is being self-delusional when he claims he is gay.
I think the jury is still out on that one, Shaggy.
ScienceDaily (Jun. 17, 2008) — Swedish researchers have found that some physical attributes of the homosexual brain resemble those found in the opposite sex, according to an article published online (June 16) in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Some psychological tests have shown differences between men and women in the extent to which they employ the brain’s hemispheres in verbal tasks. Other research has hinted that homosexuals may exhibit the tendencies of the opposite sex in brain behavior unrelated to sexual activity.
Ivanka Savic and Per Lindström, of the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, now report that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women are slightly asymmetric—the right hemisphere is larger than the left—and the brains of gay men and straight women are not.
Full Story:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
Though I realize this will fall on deaf ears to the religious group, because if homosexuality isn't indeed a choice, how can it be a sin?
I think the jury is still out on that one, Shaggy.
ScienceDaily (Jun. 17, 2008) — Swedish researchers have found that some physical attributes of the homosexual brain resemble those found in the opposite sex, according to an article published online (June 16) in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Some psychological tests have shown differences between men and women in the extent to which they employ the brain’s hemispheres in verbal tasks. Other research has hinted that homosexuals may exhibit the tendencies of the opposite sex in brain behavior unrelated to sexual activity.
Ivanka Savic and Per Lindström, of the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, now report that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women are slightly asymmetric—the right hemisphere is larger than the left—and the brains of gay men and straight women are not.
Full Story:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
Though I realize this will fall on deaf ears to the religious group, because if homosexuality isn't indeed a choice, how can it be a sin?
Sir Elton might be a bad example.
I have a close friend whos little brother went the same route....but without the booze and the drugs.
Its a family of three brothers and two sisters, also a lutheran family that was at church every sunday.
This little brother was always a little different, nobody thought gay, just a little light in his loafers.
As we all grew up he went on and got married like the rest of us trying to follow what the society norms are, they even had a child.
Guess what it didnt work he was gay and suppressed it for years, he was the only one in his family to be gay.
Now he is divorced and living with a man he is in love with and has never been happier.
Weird huh ?
The only abuse in his life was the abuse he put himself thru trying to be something he never was.
He was born that way, and tryed like hell not to be...well thats what he tells me anyway.
Speaking of nothing in evidence to conclusively back your claim up... Just curious what qualifies you to speak for the majority of gays.so your view on how gays are "created" would be your own personal view and have nothing in evidence to conclusively back your claim up. the majority of gays will admit that they have always been that way. sexually attracted by the same. since as far back as they can remember.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, all but one of the homosexuals I know either come from a dysfunctional family or were abused in their past (sexually and/or otherwise). The one thing in your story that would give me pause is is that you implied the guy kinda stood out as a little different.
I know another kid who came from a broken house (parents divorced). His dad (who had custody) took him to church every Sunday, and the kid was afforded a very normal life. The kid always wanted attention from his mom though. His mom was (to but it nicely) a crack whore. She had many drug problems and was arrested for prostitution on multiple occasions. However, this kid wasn't around her except on a few ocassions as was very sheltered from those aspect of her. In school (my mother was his third grade teacher, as well as his family and mine being rather close), the kid always seemed very effeminate. The kids would sometimes joke about it. Not surprisingly, he is now a homosexual. He effectively unconsciously made himself into the daughter he thought his mother always wanted.
I know that the case of your friend and the case of my friend are two different things entirely. The point I am making, is that for my friend, the big psychological factor for him was obviously some sever parent issues. It wasn't so much a dysfunctional family type thing, as his actual immediate family (the people he lived with and celebrated special occasions with) was very normal, but there was still a definite psychological factor there. I would wonder if there might be something in your friends childhood that might be that psychological factor.
For something like that, there doesn't need to be a broken household. Maybe one parent is gone away on business a lot or doesn't give one child as much attention as another. My point is that, just because someone has what is considered a "normal" childhood, that doesn't mean that there are no psychological factors there. It just means they may not be as obvious.
BTW, My question about your friend is purely rhetorical. You and your friends background are none of my business, and I am not looking to pry.
talk about jumping to conclusions on your own. you have no evidence whatsoever to back that one up.
my example of elton john is viable, because he has admitted he recognizes that he always has been gay. societal norms and pressures make many gays try and fall into expected patterns, which lead to life of denial and quite often excess in thought numbing practices.
more often than not? and this is verifiable, or a personal view? this was the basis of my last argument that you short quoted me on in your reply. there is no evidence whatsoever that the majority of gays come from these environments. that would be your personal view that you admit to.
so your view on how gays are "created" would be your own personal view and have nothing in evidence to conclusively back your claim up. the majority of gays will admit that they have always been that way. sexually attracted by the same. since as far back as they can remember.
I know of no abuse.
Family life was as good or better then my own.
IMHO he was born that way.
I also know alot of people that have been abused...my father being one of them, that are not gay.
abuse does not = gay.
I don't know a lot of gays he is just one story.
A Friend from high school married a woman practiced a gay "lifestyle" so I would never say all gays are born that way.
She was in a abusive marriage with kids, got divorced started to eat at the Y.
She had a few girl friends...this went on for over 5 years.
My friend had no idea about her history, asked her out.
They dated for 2 years, got married, that was 7 years ago.
So you tell me is she gay or did she just want to try something different ?
Is she BI ? I have no idea I dont care.
My point is I can agree with you that some do choose.
But from what I learned not all just make a choice, its who they are.
To think you can just fix it with a little down home religion is a pipe dream.
As far as gay marriage the far right better get ready for it because its comming.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218048/
Because I think most moderates just dont care.
Most of society here in America is against redefining marriage to include homosexuals. Whenever an amendment has been put up for banning gay marriage or redefining marriage to allow for gay marriage, the result has always fallen on the side of banning gay marriage.
My argument isn't that homosexuality is a conscious choice (it is probably to some, but that is rare). My argument is that it is not biological, but psychological; usually and unconscious thing. There is a lot of verifiable evidence that shows that (as I have pointed out it this thread, and am too lazy after my last post to go back and find to repost).
In regards to gay marriage, that lesbian friend of my is now looking to get "married" to her partner up in Washington D.C. (she lives there now). I unfortunately cannot afford to go (poor college student), but I am happy for her. I have no problem with gays committing to each other and calling that a marriage, as that is what that is to those two individuals. My problem with gay marriage comes at redefining marriage at a societal level. There have been very negative consequences shown to be attached to doing that, as have been pointed out in this thread. I make a strong distinction between the individual level and the societal level due, in large part to that.
Why someone is gay is irrelevant.
Society changes as individuals accept change as you have.
It will change and has already started thats why gays are flying to Cal.
Since when did you become a forum moderator?I think it's time to put this "baby" to bed.
Obviously arguements among contridicting forces can never be won.
Let the homophobes continue hating gays, and those who like them continue liking them.
You can post here till the next millinium, and opinions won't change.
Why not just move on , and leave it at that.
Bob.
I think it's time to put this "baby" to bed.
Obviously arguements among contridicting forces can never be won.
Let the homophobes continue hating gays, and those who like them continue liking them.
You can post here till the next millinium, and opinions won't change.
Why not just move on , and leave it at that.
Bob.
Since when did you become a forum moderator?
It's more than just hating or liking issue, I couldn't care less if people hate homosexuals, they're free to do so. But when you use that hate to deny equality, that is an issue.