"Gay Marriage: Even Liberals Know It's Bad"?!

Google "has gay marriage had a negative impact in europe" (or simlar), the hits vary, some support your view (aka Kurtz's), some don't, so you claiming other people cherry-pick is dishonest.

It is only "dishonest" if you assume both Kurtz and his critiques are cherry picking, which has hardly been shown to be the case. Accusations do not equal facts.

I have already shown one example of Kurtz countering one of his critiques by pointing out that they were taking stats out of context and he put them into context to show.



What we have is a claim that gay-marriage will have a negative impact on the institution of hetero-marriage, ergo it shouldn't be allowed and the gay community is held responsible to prove that it wouldn't (essentially asked to prove a negative) if they expect society to accept it.

That is a little oversimplified but,more or less, yes. That is the way the Framers set up the Constitution (through the amendment process) to work when it comes to changes like this.

It is also the only logical way to approach such change, as dicated by the precautionary principle.

It's a cowardly and dishonest approach, they would have no way to disprove/prove such a claim unless gay-marriage were first allowed and then the outcome was observed and dissected. You know this.

"cowardly and dishonest"...
More attempts at demonization and marginalization. Just because you can mock the burden of proof doesn't necessitate it's move. Nice try...

There is nothing "dishonest" here, and you know it. You just can't consider the possibility that you might be wrong on this, can you.

If you can't disprove the claim, then you don't allow the chance. Society isn't a science project; you don't conduct experiments with the results being what is important so you can draw empirical conclusions and the consequences are meaningless. The consequences are far more important then having a means to draw empirical conclusions.

This is a social and political debate, with far more broad reaching and potentially irreversible consequences then any scientific experiment. More caution is necessitated.

The funny thing, gay-marrige has been allowed on a small scale for 4+ years now regardless of doom and gloom claims and it hasn't impacted hetero-marriage, even on a small scale. Straight people are still getting married and still having children on par with pre gay-marriage (divorce/marriage rates have been in slight decline far longer than 2003), talk about real-time proof for the U.S., there it is.

More proof by assertion.

I have pointed out a number of times in this thread that 4 years is hardly enough time to draw any conclusions either way. In addition, there are plenty of reasons that Massachusetts may be more resistant to that change. It is also questionable weather Massachusetts is an accurate and relevant analogy to the United States.

You have yet to say anything about those critiques. You simply keep bringing up the fact that Mass has had gay marriage for 4 years, and ignoring those critiques. Textbook proof by assertion.

So you can continue claiming others are making fallacies, acting childish, being dishonest and you're the only one with clear objective view,

I have not simply "claimed" fallacious arguments, childishness and dishhonesty. You guys have demonstrated that, and I have effectively shown a spot light on it to make your actions clear for what they are.

but gay-marriage is happening in the U.S. and the data observed doesn't support your view.

A: That doesn't disprove the critiques of making fallacious arguments, acting childish and being dishonest. Another non sequiter

B: The "data observed" in Mass or California is not enough to support or disprove any view yet

Edit: Here's one example I found in google that counters each of Kurtz's claims:

Fully Story Here: http://www.slate.com/id/2100884/

FYI: This article is by Badgett and has already been pointed out in post 166. I have been rather busy and haven't had a chance to develop a response yet concerning the whole Badgett/Kurtz thing.
 
your noting of Badgett being a lesbian is just as valid as Krutz being a staunch consevative

I think you are missing my point...both are irrelevant. I was citing Badgett's ties and potential to benefit from winning this debate as way to show ford nut's double standard between the Kurtz and Badgett.

The noting of both their ties, while factually accurate, is hardly valid as a means to disregard both. It is simply ad hominem reasoning.

As I said in post 220, what we have here is two competing sets of interpretations of the stats. Which one (if any) is cherry-picking data, or taking any stats out of context, hasn't been shown yet.

You can cite articles whose given facts and conclusions reached seem to go against Kurtz or Badgett (depending on the angle you wanna come at). At this point that is simply worthless in the debate. What is necessary is a comparison between the two and some research to find out which conclusion is accurate given the info taken in whole and in context. That is why I cited all those links; to make sure people can do that here if they want.

Until you can show that, you are just wasting everybody's time here and only spinning your wheels in this debate.

Is there a correlation, then, between same-sex marriage and a strengthening of the institution of marriage?

Actually, David Blankenhorn rather aptly demonstrates in a number of his works (including this one) that there is a definite correlation between same-sex marriage and a poor state of marriage in a country.

possible cherry picking of info?

In fact, that link you cite is based on the work of William Eskridge and Darren Spedale (who, not suprisingly, happen to be gay advocates). Kurtz rather aptly demonstrates in this article how their work is flawed due to cherry picking and taking stats out of context, among other things. Here is an excerpt:

Drawing on Spedale, Sullivan and Eskridge cite evidence that since then [Denmark legalizing gay marriage in 1989], marriage has strengthened. Spedale reported that in the six years following the establishment of registered partnerships in Denmark (1990-1996), heterosexual marriage rates climbed by 10 percent, while heterosexual divorce rates declined by 12 percent.

Yet the half-page statistical analysis of heterosexual marriage in Darren Spedale's unpublished paper doesn't begin to get at the truth about the decline of marriage in Scandinavia during the nineties. Scandinavian marriage is now so weak that statistics on marriage and divorce no longer mean what they used to.

It's true that in Denmark, as elsewhere in Scandinavia, divorce numbers looked better in the nineties. But that's because the pool of married people has been shrinking for some time. You can't divorce without first getting married. Moreover, a closer look at Danish divorce in the post-gay marriage decade reveals disturbing trends. Many Danes have stopped holding off divorce until their kids are grown. And Denmark in the nineties saw a 25 percent increase in cohabiting couples with children. With fewer parents marrying, what used to show up in statistical tables as early divorce is now the unrecorded breakup of a cohabiting couple with children.

What about Spedale's report that the Danish marriage rate increased 10 percent from 1990 to 1996? Again, the news only appears to be good. First, there is no trend. Eurostat's just-released marriage rates for 2001 show declines in Sweden and Denmark (Norway hasn't reported). Second, marriage statistics in societies with very low rates (Sweden registered the lowest marriage rate in recorded history in 1997) must be carefully parsed. In his study of the Norwegian family in the nineties, for example, Christer Hyggen shows that a small increase in Norway's marriage rate over the past decade has more to do with the institution's decline than with any renaissance. Much of the increase in Norway's marriage rate is driven by older couples "catching up." These couples belong to the first generation that accepts rearing the first born child out of wedlock. As they bear second children, some finally get married. (And even this tendency to marry at the birth of a second child is weakening.) As for the rest of the increase in the Norwegian marriage rate, it is largely attributable to remarriage among the large number of divorced.

Spedale's report of lower divorce rates and higher marriage rates in post-gay marriage Denmark is thus misleading. Marriage is now so weak in Scandinavia that shifts in these rates no longer mean what they would in America. In Scandinavian demography, what counts is the out-of-wedlock birthrate, and the family dissolution rate.

The family dissolution rate is different from the divorce rate. Because so many Scandinavians now rear children outside of marriage, divorce rates are unreliable measures of family weakness. Instead, we need to know the rate at which parents (married or not) split up. Precise statistics on family dissolution are unfortunately rare. Yet the studies that have been done show that throughout Scandinavia (and the West) cohabiting couples with children break up at two to three times the rate of married parents. So rising rates of cohabitation and out-of-wedlock birth stand as proxy for rising rates of family dissolution.

By that measure, Scandinavian family dissolution has only been worsening. Between 1990 and 2000, Norway's out-of-wedlock birthrate rose from 39 to 50 percent, while Sweden's rose from 47 to 55 percent. In Denmark out-of-wedlock births stayed level during the nineties (beginning at 46 percent and ending at 45 percent). But the leveling off seems to be a function of a slight increase in fertility among older couples, who marry only after multiple births (if they don't break up first). That shift masks the 25 percent increase during the nineties in cohabitation and unmarried parenthood among Danish couples (many of them young). About 60 percent of first born children in Denmark now have unmarried parents. The rise of fragile families based on cohabitation and out-of-wedlock childbearing means that during the nineties, the total rate of family dissolution in Scandinavia significantly increased.

He also makes an interesting point in his final paragraph that has relevance to the 4 years of gay marriage in Mass you keep citing as proof in support of gay marriage.

Conservative advocates of gay marriage want to test it in a few states. The implication is that, should the experiment go bad, we can call it off. Yet the effects, even in a few American states, will be neither containable nor revocable. It took about 15 years after the change hit Sweden and Denmark for Norway's out-of-wedlock birthrate to begin to move from "European" to "Nordic" levels. It took another 15 years (and the advent of gay marriage) for Norway's out-of-wedlock birthrate to shoot past even Denmark's. By the time we see the effects of gay marriage in America, it will be too late to do anything about it. Yet we needn't wait that long. In effect, Scandinavia has run our experiment for us. The results are in.

About 15 years to see the effects in a country that embraced gay marriage. Let me repeat, about 15 years!

So how is 4 years after being forced to allow for gay marriage in a part of a country that, on the whole opposes gay marriage, enough time to draw a conclusion either way when there is no chance for the effects to show yet?

At the very least, you would have to admit that we have to wait another 11 years or more before any further action in the direction of allowing gay marriage. Are you willing to do that?
 
Deville, I have been rather patient with you...
What you wrote in post #180 gave me the impression that you were willing and possibly able to have an honest debate here. I could have accurately pointed out (as Fossten did) that you needed to re-read my previous posts, and were coming across as disrespectful to ignore those. I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt and work to better explain and clarify what I was saying. I pointed out what needed to be done on your end of the debate to meet the burden of proof against it. I even downplayed and overlooked your baseless effectively calling me a bigot and groundlessly claiming I am fear-mongering.
For whatever reason, it seems you are either unwilling or incapable of having an honest, objective debate on this. I am left wondering if you are even capable of considering the possibility that you might actually be wrong on this issue...

Your arrogance is obvious, not just towards me but to anyone the diagrees with you.

There is no evidence to claim I am arrogant, so you manufactured some. More proof of your lack of intellectual integrity, by cherry picking and taking info out of context; two methods of debate which are disturbingly common on your end of this issue.

FYI; if you knew me at all, you would know that I am actually a very humble person.
I couldnt help myself a I had to pick some of that low hanging fruit ;)


FYI; I could care less about Gay Marriage I care more about the religious right pushing there agenda telling people what is right because of what they believe.
 
FYI; I could care less about Gay Marriage I care more about the religious right pushing there agenda telling people what is right because of what they believe.
That's a pretty broad statement. What about the liberal left and their agenda? Do you have similar feelings towards that?
 
Answer to #203

You're right---I don't care about benefits.
Society is complex enough that some will accept and some will not.

I don't know about Webster, (I thought he was dead) but it's a typical liberal trick---must be liberals in the Webster organization---to change or add to a definition to give credence to a point of view. (See original def. of 'income' as an example).
KS
 
Your arrogance is obvious, not just towards me but to anyone the diagrees with you.

How do any of those quotes show arrogance?!

That first quote:
Deville, I have been rather patient with you...
What you wrote in post #180 gave me the impression that you were willing and possibly able to have an honest debate here. I could have accurately pointed out (as Fossten did) that you needed to re-read my previous posts, and were coming across as disrespectful to ignore those. I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt and work to better explain and clarify what I was saying. I pointed out what needed to be done on your end of the debate to meet the burden of proof against it. I even downplayed and overlooked your baseless effectively calling me a bigot and groundlessly claiming I am fear-mongering.

That quote shows frustration more then any other emotion or trait. Even when I go out of my why to be respectful to Deville he is demonstratively and habitually rude and disrespectful in his arguing tactics, as well as demonstratively and habitually lacking in intellectual integrity on this issue. That is what I am responding to.

How is there any sign of arrogance in that?

and the second quote:

For whatever reason, it seems you are either unwilling or incapable of having an honest, objective debate on this. I am left wondering if you are even capable of considering the possibility that you might actually be wrong on this issue...

Again, demonstrative of frustration on my part, but where is there a sign of arrogance?

The conclusion I reach is logically drawn from the actions taken by Deville.

I would ask for some clarification and explanation as to how those quotes in any way show arrogance, but you so far when you have been challenged in your baseless and irrelevant smears of me (and make no mistake that is all this is), the best you can do is come up with equivocation, if you offer any attempt to justify your statements at all. You have already said at different times that I am "spamming" or "ranting" but refuse to offer any valid proof.

You are continuing to demonstrate what you have been doing in the vast majority of this thread; being childishly disrespectful in your arguments as well as habitually baiting and antagonizing others and generally distracting from this debate.

FYI; I could care less about Gay Marriage I care more about the religious right pushing there agenda telling people what is right because of what they believe.

Then why the crusade against Kurtz? None of my argument (or his) has been in any way dependent on (or based in) a religious angle. Yet you work to smear the both of us and baselessly work to disregard anything we say.
 
Your arrogance is obvious, not just towards me but to anyone the diagrees with you.
That's ridiculous. Shag has disagreed with me before and he's never acted arrogant.

This is just a simple case where the truth hurts. Get over it and quit whining.
 
That's a pretty broad statement. What about the liberal left and their agenda? Do you have similar feelings towards that?

Yes the looney left is as bad as the religious right.

Come on shag...
Deville, I have been rather patient with you...
Are you talking to a small child ?
I could have accurately pointed out (as Fossten did) that you needed to re-read my previous posts,

They are all that count after all.
I will just go back to this.
:bowrofl:
Do you think anyone could ever win a gay marriage argument with you Shag ?
 
It's a claim the gay community couldn't disprove if gay-marriage wasn't allowed in th first place and the data scrutinized, why do you hide this under the convenient "social consequences" shield?

Seems like any claim, no matter how illogical could be used to disallow gay-marriage before it happened.

LoL at the "patience" remark, you martyr, you. Anyhow, this is a circular argument, you have Kurtz to fall back on and there are multiple people posted that counter his claims while Krutz counters theres, back and forth. What we do have though that isn't biased, is four+ years of gay-marriage happening in the U.S. and so far, it hasn't destroyed marriage for straight people.
 
It's a claim the gay community couldn't disprove if gay-marriage wasn't allowed in th first place and the data scrutinized, why do you hide this under the convenient "social consequences" shield?

"hide under the convenient 'social consequences' shield"...
Spin it however you want. One approach is socially responsible, while the other is exceedingly reckless all in the name of helping force social acceptance.

One has reasonable priorities, and one doesn't. America clearly comes down on one side of this issue, and those that disagree are looking to force their agenda regardless of what society wants.

The burden of proof is hardly impossible to meet (as you imply). It is met every day in any criminal conviction in this country, among many other places. It has also been met at the national level at least 28 times (ratification of the constitution and the 27 amendments).

But it isn't just an academic debate. The results of the debate will have far reaching, severe and irreversible consequences to society. As such, you cannot logically, or morally justify conducting "social experiments" to see if gay marriage might work.

Seems like any claim, no matter how illogical could be used to disallow gay-marriage before it happened.

Hardly.
The claim against gay marriage has to be reasonable and probable. It can't just be any absurd claim, otherwise most of society wouldn't worry about it.

...this is a circular argument, you have Kurtz to fall back on and there are multiple people posted that counter his claims while Krutz counters theirs, back and forth.

How is that a circular argument?

Here is the definition of circular argument:
a type of logical fallacy (also called petitio principii) in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises

An argument that goes "back and forth" is not a circular argument (as you seem to be claiming). The incorrect usage of that term only serves to cloud and mischaracterize the debate.

The question in regards to Kurtz and his critics is; who's interpretation of the data is accurate and who's isn't?

Just because one set of data and it's interpretation are wrong doesn't mean that both should be thrown out (which is where you seem to be going). It is hardly clear weather both Kurtz and his critics conclusions are biased, and is highly unlikely. It is much more likely that one side is biased and one isn't.

What we do have though that isn't biased, is four+ years of gay-marriage happening in the U.S. and so far, it hasn't destroyed marriage for straight people.

You need to show how that means something and isn't just. How 4 years is enough time to see the effects of marriage in Mass. Neither Kurtz or his critics are drawing any conclusions based on simply four years out.

Both sides of this debate are looking at trends in the Netherlands through 15+ years before drawing conclusions either way. That strongly suggests that either side of this debate doesn't see anything less then 15 years as being able to clearly draw conclusions either way in those countries.

Considering the factors I have pointed out in previous threads, it is rather likely that Massachusetts is likely to be more resistant to the effects of gay marriage and as such, it will take longer for those effects to be show then 15 years, as in the Netherlands.
 
"Spinning" now? Hahaaha.

There is no conceivable way in which the gay-community could ultimately disprove your negative unless it was factually allowed first and then scrutinized. They can logically reason that gay-marriage wouldn't negatively affect the institute of marriage as a whole and in some fashion ruin it for straight people, because that is little more than illogical fear-tactics, but that of course won't serve as proof.

By that same reasoning, women's suffrage should have never been allowed, because you know, women might not devote themselves to the home if they could vote, run for office and be politic and it would/could ruin the "family unit", which would have devastating consequences on American society. Wait, something sounds oddly familiar (aka fear-tactics).

Oh, you got me there, meant "back and forth", point to you. Anything you throw from Kurtz can be countered with another "expert" and vice-versa in regards to this debate. Not going with "both should be thrown out" angle to want to imply.

It does show something, it shows that in 4 years straight people are still getting married and having children, you can ignore this because it countes the your argument, but it's still a fact. I'll agree that 4 years isn't enough to unequivocally say "gay marriage won't have a negative on society", but it clearly shows that the counter argument has faults.

Now Mass. is just more resistant? That’s a laugh. I have a feeling that in another four years, Mass. will just be upgraded to "more resistant than originally conceived" and Ca. will probably be labeled that too.
 
There is no conceivable way in which the gay-community could ultimately disprove your negative unless it was factually allowed first and then scrutinized. They can logically reason that gay-marriage wouldn't negatively affect the institute of marriage as a whole and in some fashion ruin it for straight people, because that is little more than illogical fear-tactics, but that of course won't serve as proof.

They can "logically reason" all they want, but the evidence says something else. You aren't entitled to be able to conduct social experiments to prove gay marriage, or keep trying new social experiments until you get the results you want. If you can't show that gay marriage won't harm marriage through inference, then you don't allow gay marriage.

Due to the whole nature of a change on a national level, any proposed change isn't allowed or entitled to be able to prove itself before being accepted or rejected. It has to convince most of society without doing that to be accepted.

You can whine all you want about gay marriage not being allowed to prove itself, but that is the only rational and reasonable approach to any national change in order to avoid severe, reckless and irreversible harm to society.

There are plenty of other potential changes that have not been enacted for the same reason. Flat tax and/or national sales tax, universal health care...the list goes on.

You are prioritizing some abstract sense of "fairness" or "fair play" over the very real concern for the health of society in general and marriage in particular. The vast majority of society doesn't share that irrational prioritization, and you are not going to change that. You are arguing a losing proposition, here.

By that same reasoning, women's suffrage should have never been allowed, because you know, women might not devote themselves to the home if they could vote, run for office and be politic and it would/could ruin the "family unit", which would have devastating consequences on American society. Wait, something sounds oddly familiar (aka fear-tactics).

Unless you can show that people were making the same arguments against woman's suffrage as are being made against gay marriage (besides some vague allusion to fear-mongering based on spin and mischaracterization), this is nothing more then a red herring.

Besides, the women's suffrage movement ultimately did meet the burden of proof dictated by the precautionary principle when they got the 19th amendment passed.

So, the example in your analogy actually disproves your claim that the burden of proof is too high for gay marriage to have a chance. It strengthens my point. Thanks. ;)

Anything you throw from Kurtz can be countered with another "expert" and vice-versa in regards to this debate.

Then the question becomes; who is right and who is wrong? Kurtz or his critics? You need to look at the evidence and the arguments and draw a conclusion as to which one is right.

I'll agree that 4 years isn't enough to unequivocally say "gay marriage won't have a negative on society", but it clearly shows that the counter argument has faults.

It either shows something or it doesn't. there is no kinda shows something, when it comes to something of this nature. If the stats aren't clear enough to unequivocally say one way or the other, then they are not clear enough to draw a conclusion at all.

Now Mass. is just more resistant? That’s a laugh. I have a feeling that in another four years, Mass. will just be upgraded to "more resistant than originally conceived" and Ca. will probably be labeled that too.

Mocking and exaggerating a valid point doesn't disprove it, and only hurts your credibility.
 
In regards to the Netherlands, correlation does not equal causation.

Very good point. You cannot scientifically or statistically prove causation due simply to a proof of correlation. In fact, that would be a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

However, Blankenhorn points out how that argument misses the point and is effectively a kind of red herring...

Neither Kurtz nor anyone else can scientifically prove that allowing gay marriage causes the institution of marriage to get weaker. Correlation does not imply causation. The relation between two correlated phenomena may be causal, or it may be random, or it may reflect some deeper cause producing both. Even if you could show that every last person in North Carolina eats barbecue, you would not have established that eating barbecue is a result of taking up residence in North Carolina.

When it comes to the health of marriage as an institution and the legal status of same-sex unions, there is much to be gained from giving up the search for causation and studying some recurring patterns in the data, as I did for my book The Future of Marriage.

...The correlations are strong. Support for marriage is by far the weakest in countries with same-sex marriage. The countries with marriage-like civil unions show significantly more support for marriage. The two countries with only regional recognition of gay marriage (Australia and the United States) do better still on these support-for-marriage measurements, and those without either gay marriage or marriage-like civil unions do best of all.

...Certain trends in values and attitudes tend to cluster with each other and with certain trends in behavior. A rise in unwed childbearing goes hand in hand with a weakening of the belief that people who want to have children should get married. High divorce rates are encountered where the belief in marital permanence is low. More one-parent homes are found where the belief that children need both a father and a mother is weaker. A rise in nonmarital cohabitation is linked at least partly to the belief that marriage as an institution is outmoded. The legal endorsement of gay marriage occurs where the belief prevails that marriage itself should be redefined as a private personal relationship. And all of these marriage-weakening attitudes and behaviors are linked. Around the world, the surveys show, these things go together.

...We cannot demonstrate statistically what exactly causes what, or what is likely to have what consequences in the future. But we do see in country after country that these phenomena form a pattern that recurs. They are mutually reinforcing. Socially, an advance for any of them is likely to be an advance for all of them. An individual who tends to accept any one or two of them probably accepts the others as well. And as a political and strategic matter, anyone who is fighting for any one of them should--almost certainly already does--support all of them, since a victory for any of them clearly coincides with the advance of the others. Which is why, for example, people who have devoted much of their professional lives to attacking marriage as an institution almost always favor gay marriage. These things do go together.

In addition, Kurtz himself acknowledges that you can't scientifically prove causation through correlation, but also makes some interesting observations...

...It’s certainly true that numbers alone can’t prove causation. If a survey shows that cities where people drink a lot of orange juice also tend to have large traffic jams, that doesn’t prove orange juice causes traffic jams. The correlation could be a total coincidence, or the commonality might have to do with some third factor, like the weather. But the impossibility of proving causation from numbers alone doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to put together a persuasive causal case.

...you’ve got to follow up the numbers with a deeper case substantiating the causal claim. You’ve got to examine possible alternative causes, and give good reasons why those alternative causes ought to be either rejected, or supplemented, by others. And you need to explain why the link...is likely to be more than coincidence.

...I’ve offered a case on the causal effects of same-sex marriage, and in doing so I’ve gone way beyond mere numbers. I’ve acknowledged and examined possible alternative causes, and argued that, important as they often are, these alternative causes do not by themselves suffice to make sense of the current decline of European marriage. I’ve also offered a close look at the attitudes toward institutional marriage favored by European proponents of same-sex unions. Put that all together, and I think it allows you to say that we are dealing with more here than orange juice and traffic jams.

Again, it is true that you cannot scientifically or statistically prove causation due simply to a proof of correlation. However, this debate is a social and political one, not a scientific one. It is informed by scientific evidence, but goes well beyond the empirical conclusions allowed by science.

Without being able to conduct scientific experiments it is impossible to prove causation. "Social experiments" cannot eliminate variables to the degree necessary to prove causation, and are very likely to have far reaching, irreversible and severe effects that are as likely to be negative as positive. So determining causation between two correlated effects is drawn from argument and probability based on what the evidence suggests.

According to this link, "To say that correlation does not suggest causation' is false: A demonstrably consistent correlation often suggests some causal relationship (or implies it, in the casual sense of the word). What correlation does not do is prove causation."

Still, it is very easy to fall into a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, so you have to be very careful to avoid it.

As this link on post hoc ergo propter hoc points out, "The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection."

So what is necessary is to, "examine possible alternative causes, and give good reasons why those alternative causes ought to be either rejected, or supplemented, by others. And you need to explain why the link...is likely to be more than coincidence."

Kurtz claims to have done that when he says, "I’ve acknowledged and examined possible alternative causes, and argued that, important as they often are, these alternative causes do not by themselves suffice to make sense of the current decline of European marriage. I’ve also offered a close look at the attitudes toward institutional marriage favored by European proponents of same-sex unions."

Basically, what needs to be done in regards to causation in a social and political debate is to show that the proposed explanation is the most reasonable, considering all the evidence in context.

In light of the placement of the burden of proof dictated by the precautionary principle in favor of tradition, a probable causation is more then enough to be considered a reasonable objection to a proposed change.

Whew!

That was a very good point to raise, TommyB. I actually hadn't considered that! Took a while for me to develop a response. :)

Once again, sorry 'bout the long post. ;)
 
Actually, women's suffrage has been quite devastating to this country.


Have you regulated yourself to just claiming I'm wrong and not backing it up? You claimed that me saying "miscenegation didn't hurt this country" as being stupid, yet never offered any thoughts, just an accusing insult.
 
Have you regulated yourself to just claiming I'm wrong and not backing it up? You claimed that me saying "miscenegation didn't hurt this country" as being stupid, yet never offered any thoughts, just an accusing insult.
Please provide the exact quoted post where I said your post was stupid or insulted you. Furthermore, provide the exact quoted post where you said, "Miscenegation didn't hurt this country."
 
Women's suffrage passed because of the prexisting 14th and 15th amendment that were initially set up so blacks could vote. The fear tactics of allowing women to vote would ruin the "family institition" is on par with gay-marriage ruining the institution of marriage. Both unfounded fear-tactics.

Also of note, it didn't happen all at once and the 19th wasn't ratified until 1920, ie 51 years after it started and state by state had been slowly allowing it. Ergo, it doesn't support your views, but I bet it makes you feel warm inside saying it.

I love how you put (imply) Krutz at the forefront, like he's the major expert on the issue.

It does show something, nothing negative has happened in 4+ years. It shows that the data so far doesn't support Kurtz's views. Which of course you'll add "it's not enough!"

Your point was rediculous to begin with. 'Nothing negative has happened in Mass in these last four years, ergo, it HAS to be because Mass is more resistance than other states.'
 
Please provide the exact quoted post where I said your post was stupid or insulted you. Furthermore, provide the exact quoted post where you said, "Miscenegation didn't hurt this country."

#208: "the notion of a Black and White person being joined in marriage was seen as an atrocity. Yet here we are in 2008 and nothing negative came from that" -Deville

#209: "LOL at the absurd claim." -Fossten (You're right, you didn't say it was stupid, jusy called it "absurd", point to you.)

#210: "If my claim is "absurb", surely you can bring up points that disprove it. So, what negatives came from miscegenation in America?" -Deville

Which you didn't reply too.

Do feel free to though, and the suffrage claim.
 
Well, I'm not exactly sure how to break this up. It is kinda unclear what exactly you are responding too...

Women's suffrage passed because of the prexisting 14th and 15th amendment that were initially set up so blacks could vote. The fear tactics of allowing women to vote would ruin the "family institition" is on par with gay-marriage ruining the institution of marriage. Both unfounded fear-tactics.

It still had to go through and pass the constitutional amendment process (which inherently imposes a very high burden of proof for any change, as dictated by the precautionary principle), culminating in the passage of the 19th Amendment.

Also, you still need to show that a threat to the "family institution" was part of the actual argument against woman suffrage. Even if it was, it wasn't a very convincing argument apparently, as most of society obviously didn't view it as much of a threat, hence the passage of the 19th amendment. The same can't be said of gay marriage, as most of society is against gay marriage and apparently view the threat to marriage posed by gay marriage as real.

You can also go back to the differences between the gay marriage debate and the struggle against interracial marriage. those same differences are present with regards to woman's suffrage, in addition to difference of voting rights and marriage rights. Interracial marriage was really your best bet, and even then it is still a huge stretch.

You are really stretching and oversimplifying to the point of mischaracterization to compare the gay marriage agenda to some past civil rights struggle.

Also of note, it didn't happen [woman's suffrage] all at once and the 19th wasn't ratified until 1920, ie 51 years after it started and state by state had been slowly allowing it. Ergo, it doesn't support your views, but I bet it makes you feel warm inside saying it.

Yes, it took time, which is what the constitution imposes and helps avoid any reckless change due to an excessively impassioned populace. Instead, due to the procedures for amendment spelled out in the constitution and the burden of proof that dictates, the population is forced to slow down long enough for their passions to die down, allowing them to look at it more rationally, and realistically.

The only way your argument in that quote is not a non sequiter is if you assume that I was somehow claiming that meeting the burden of proof for change at the national level can happen overnight (or at least rather quickly). I never implied that, let alone claimed that. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Change at the national level of this nature takes a very long time, years in fact (if not decades). Both the example of woman's suffrage, and the civil rights legislation of the 1960's fit into the view I have conveyed.

So your conclusion (that the example you gave of women's suffrage doesn't support my view) in no way follows your premise (that women's suffrage didn't happen all at once; taking 51 years after it started and state by state slowly allowing it). Another non sequiter.

In fact, there is another difference that would make the comparison of the women's suffrage movement and the gay marriage agenda a false analogy; state's allowing it. Every state that has had the chance has said that they do not want gay marriage, in fact rejecting it. The only way gay marriage has been allowed is by officials (usually judges) forcingit on the state.

I love how you put (imply) Krutz at the forefront, like he's the major expert on the issue.

I am not exactly sure what you are responding to here, but I am gonna take a guess, and run with that.

First; Kurtz is a major expert in this area. I never said or implied that he is the major expert.

Second; Considering that all the articles posted to, or linked to in this forum on the subject of Nordic marriage (besides Blankenhorn, which is a bit different angle and argument) are either by Kurtz, or in response to Kurtz, it is hardly a subtle implication of is "sole expert status". I am phrasing my discussion of the two opposing points of view as representative of how they are presented in this thread.

It does show something, nothing negative has happened in 4+ years. It shows that the data so far doesn't support Kurtz's views. Which of course you'll add "it's not enough!"

It shows nothing either way. There is not enough evidence to show anything either way; it is still ambiguous. To argue that is does say something at all is a fallacious hasty generalization argument.

Your reachin to make a point. Of course it doesn't support Kurtz findings but it in no way disproves them or supports gay marriage, either. There hasn't been enough time for any trend to develop either way to such a degree as to draw a conclusion.

Your claim that gay marriage hasn't shown any negative effects is only true in as much as gay marriage hasn't shown any effects at all, in either direction.

Your point was ridiculous to begin with.

Appeal to ridicule:
a logical fallacy which presents the opponent's argument in a way that appears ridiculous, often to the extent of creating a straw man of the actual argument.

'Nothing negative has happened in Mass in these last four years, ergo, it HAS to be because Mass is more resistance than other states.'

...and there is the straw man.
I have never drawn (or implied) that conclusion from that premise. I have stated that any potential effects, either way, from gay marriage won't be seen in 4 years. As a separate point, I gave a few reasons why Mass may be more resistant then the Nordic countries to the effects of gay marriage, and that Mass may take longer to show any effect from gay marriage then the Nordic countries.
 
#208: "the notion of a Black and White person being joined in marriage was seen as an atrocity. Yet here we are in 2008 and nothing negative came from that" -Deville

#209: "LOL at the absurd claim." -Fossten (You're right, you didn't say it was stupid, jusy called it "absurd", point to you.)

#210: "If my claim is "absurb", surely you can bring up points that disprove it. So, what negatives came from miscegenation in America?" -Deville

Which you didn't reply too.

Do feel free to though, and the suffrage claim.
My rebuttal was to cite the Spike Lee movie. Have you seen it? If you have, further explanation by me shouldn't be necessary. If you haven't, then I'll explain it. The movie is about the racial tensions between blacks of different skin tone, mainly the "lights" versus the "darks." I was simply objecting to your claim that "nothing negative came from that." Plenty negative has come from it, mainly within the ethnicities themselves. Not only is the person subject to the usual stigmas that blacks have from whites, but the person is now also subject to stigmas from blacks. Obama himself has cited bitterness in his own book regarding his mixed heritage.

As far as suffrage goes, I will say that having a large female voting bloc has been destructive. Women are largely emotionally based, and as such can be easily persuaded via emotional appeal. Just look at the Oprah crowd. You may not agree, but I prefer a voting bloc that is more logical and calculating.

There's a story that this week a gaggle of reporters was following Obama around on his Middle East tour, and one female reporter exclaimed, "He touched me!" As though Obama was Jesus. That's irrational.
 

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