XKR Motor Swap Thread
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Wicked LS
New LVC Member
Looks like its been 5 year sense last post. Did you ever get around to doing it
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
well that is kinda the standard operating procedure for most Lincoln Ls motor swaps...
step one: get everybody all excited.
step two: research
step three: completely stop all progress for years.
step one: get everybody all excited.
step two: research
step three: completely stop all progress for years.
Wicked LS
New LVC Member
ya its unfortunate, I am debating doing a build I believe the motor will bolt in but the cooling and wiring is going to be an issue. I am curious if a custom wiring harness can be built to get the motor to run with the stock ecm. Of course it will have to have a tune.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Doesn't take a custom harness. Just use all the sensors from the original (or replacements that duplicate the originals). The stock ECM is not capable of recognizing the year the block was made. Supercharged Jag engines don't use the variable timing that NA engines do so there is no problem in that area. A custom tune and some aftermarket gauges will work just fine. As a gauge suggestion, please see "Land Speed LS" in the performance section.
Depending on the year of your Jag engine, you may well have to do some re-piping to get coolant to the intercooler on the top of the engine.
KS
Depending on the year of your Jag engine, you may well have to do some re-piping to get coolant to the intercooler on the top of the engine.
KS
XJLS8
LVC Member
It sounds great and all until you actually get your hands on a Jaguar and realize as much as they were built together they are completely different animals electrically. Definitely more Jaguar in the LS than Lincoln but not enough to make a Jaguar engine swap feasible.
Best bet is to copy the 4.2L upper intake and have one custom made for the 3.9L and then put the M112 on top and figure out the piping and pulley clearance. Not exactly an easy rout either but thats the way I would go if ever attempting to get more power from the LS. What stops me is having to make a custom hood to clear everything. The LS just wont look good with a raised hood section or domed hood in general.
I do like the LS for what it is but having owned and still own many a Jaguar just buy an XJR Jaguar if you want power. Better car in every way and they can be had cheap when they get to the 8-10 year mark.
Best bet is to copy the 4.2L upper intake and have one custom made for the 3.9L and then put the M112 on top and figure out the piping and pulley clearance. Not exactly an easy rout either but thats the way I would go if ever attempting to get more power from the LS. What stops me is having to make a custom hood to clear everything. The LS just wont look good with a raised hood section or domed hood in general.
I do like the LS for what it is but having owned and still own many a Jaguar just buy an XJR Jaguar if you want power. Better car in every way and they can be had cheap when they get to the 8-10 year mark.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
You can get more power from a 3.9 by spraying it than the internals will stand.
Are you, XJLS8, suggesting that the blown Jag engine is so much taller than the 3.9 that the hood won't close? Or are you suggesting that the wiring harness from a 3.9 can't be installed on the blower engine?
I don't understand your comment that '...they were built together...' The 3.9, although an AJ design, was built in Ohio. Jag AJ engines were sourced from South Wales, UK.
KS
Are you, XJLS8, suggesting that the blown Jag engine is so much taller than the 3.9 that the hood won't close? Or are you suggesting that the wiring harness from a 3.9 can't be installed on the blower engine?
I don't understand your comment that '...they were built together...' The 3.9, although an AJ design, was built in Ohio. Jag AJ engines were sourced from South Wales, UK.
KS
XJLS8
LVC Member
The 4.0L and 4.2L with the supercharger on top is indeed right around 2 inches past the hood line of the LS. The NA and forced induction versions of the 4.0L and 4.2L while using the same style mount as the LS sit much lower in the engine bay of the Jaguars. Also the Jaguars STR, XJR, and XKR that you would find this said engine are taller than the LS.
As far as they were built together, I should have said they were engineered together by the same engineering team. The AJ30/35 although put together in the U.S. apart from the AJ26/27/28/33/34/41 was designed completely by Jaguar engineers. Ford just funded the project but thats it.
As for the electrical aspect without getting to in depth yes its not plug and play without some serious time following the Jaguar wiring schematics and repining/replacing entire wires for the correct gauge to carry the correct current to the different Jaguar sensors that are not shared with the 3.9L
I am a Jaguar guy myself. I have a garage of totaled X308-X358 Sedans as reference (as well as some I drive
not all wrecks) and besides being able to bolt the engine from the Jaguar to the Lincoln thats were it ends unless you have tons of time and deep pockets for custom parts.
As far as they were built together, I should have said they were engineered together by the same engineering team. The AJ30/35 although put together in the U.S. apart from the AJ26/27/28/33/34/41 was designed completely by Jaguar engineers. Ford just funded the project but thats it.
As for the electrical aspect without getting to in depth yes its not plug and play without some serious time following the Jaguar wiring schematics and repining/replacing entire wires for the correct gauge to carry the correct current to the different Jaguar sensors that are not shared with the 3.9L
I am a Jaguar guy myself. I have a garage of totaled X308-X358 Sedans as reference (as well as some I drive
not all wrecks) and besides being able to bolt the engine from the Jaguar to the Lincoln thats were it ends unless you have tons of time and deep pockets for custom parts.cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
I've been a Jag guy and at present have a Jag engine on the stand. I tore it apart after I bought it and went through it to measure for the internals. It now has a Moldex crank, a set of GRP aluminium rods and a set of Ross forged pistons---all to make sure the planned boost wouldn't overpower the factory bits.
I did a quick once over while the engine was still together and have no doubt that by substituting the LS sensors the engine will receive all the inputs from the LS ECU necessary to make the engine run. Massive cross-breeding of harnesses won't be necessary.
Part of the 'height' of the factory LS engine is in the plastic cover supplied with the car. And some of the extra height of the Jag engine can be dealt with by removing the hood blanket and modifying the hood if necessary. In my own case, The additional connections to be seen in the trunk lid for the external charging system necessary for 'topping-up' between runs, the roll cage, hood pins required by the rules, and the easily-seen fire-supression system and the parachute mount make it unlikely that the car will be thought-of as a regular daily-driver. (Although it is.)
Please don't make the project more complicated than is necessary.
KS
I did a quick once over while the engine was still together and have no doubt that by substituting the LS sensors the engine will receive all the inputs from the LS ECU necessary to make the engine run. Massive cross-breeding of harnesses won't be necessary.
Part of the 'height' of the factory LS engine is in the plastic cover supplied with the car. And some of the extra height of the Jag engine can be dealt with by removing the hood blanket and modifying the hood if necessary. In my own case, The additional connections to be seen in the trunk lid for the external charging system necessary for 'topping-up' between runs, the roll cage, hood pins required by the rules, and the easily-seen fire-supression system and the parachute mount make it unlikely that the car will be thought-of as a regular daily-driver. (Although it is.)
Please don't make the project more complicated than is necessary.
KS
XJLS8
LVC Member
Am interested in the scope of your project? Are you looking for a forced induction non VVT 4.2L to simply run in the shell of the LS without any other LS factory supporting electronic systems involved? Do you plan to run aftermaket gauges and do away with EGR and EVAP systems?
I only ask because ive been on the other side. The private shop I worked out of for a solid 8 years had a few of us techs explore the rout of replacing an AJ26/27 version of the Jaguar 4.0L with an AJ35 LS engine. At the time we could get our hands on a used AJ35 for less than half of any used AJ26/27. The shop had a wealth of business replacing whole engines that were destroyed from the tensioner failures. I personally worked on the project up to the point of termination because it was not a feasible engine swap. The money saved on the AJ35 purchace was quickly eaten up by the amount of time spent repining and replacing wires for the Jaguar so the factory electrical systems recognized the engine as an AJ35 and were fed proper information at the right warm up temps as well as the correct RPMs throughout the closed loop drive cycle. That portion of work was strictly for the EVAP and EGR systems proper function.
Another tech worked on the dash gauges and message center function. The OBD system was briefly touched upon before the project was terminated.
All in all it was as anything is, completely capable of being done at a certain expense and time. It sounds like you are already vested in the engine side so very interested to see how you proceed.
I only ask because ive been on the other side. The private shop I worked out of for a solid 8 years had a few of us techs explore the rout of replacing an AJ26/27 version of the Jaguar 4.0L with an AJ35 LS engine. At the time we could get our hands on a used AJ35 for less than half of any used AJ26/27. The shop had a wealth of business replacing whole engines that were destroyed from the tensioner failures. I personally worked on the project up to the point of termination because it was not a feasible engine swap. The money saved on the AJ35 purchace was quickly eaten up by the amount of time spent repining and replacing wires for the Jaguar so the factory electrical systems recognized the engine as an AJ35 and were fed proper information at the right warm up temps as well as the correct RPMs throughout the closed loop drive cycle. That portion of work was strictly for the EVAP and EGR systems proper function.
Another tech worked on the dash gauges and message center function. The OBD system was briefly touched upon before the project was terminated.
All in all it was as anything is, completely capable of being done at a certain expense and time. It sounds like you are already vested in the engine side so very interested to see how you proceed.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Loud is always willing to answer for me since he knows what's in my mind better than I do.
I'll simply say this---When I was a kid, I knew a guy who put the entire Merlin engine from a P-51 into an early Ford sedan and drove it on the street---not quite as a grocery-getter, but... Alongside such a feat, transplanting one AJ engine into another AJ engine bay would be a lesser effort.
I worked at Ford for some years and have raced Fords for all my life since I was 16 and made my first trip down a quarter-mile---in a '53 Merc. I don't begin to know everything about everything but I know who knows who---and that's much better.
When FoMoCo had the prototype operation at McLaren do a feasibility study regarding putting a 4.6 V-8 into the LS, part of what the McLaren people did was to cast, from magnesium, a 'flatter' intake manifold so the factory hood could still be used. Ultimately, they built two complete running cars. I was writing an engine series for Mustang Illustrated Magazine at the time and dealing with an engineer who was doing, among other things, liaison between the 'Skunk-Works' at Ford and the McLaren people. On several occasions, I met him in the prototype shop and while there I got a tour. I even drove one of the LSs for a few blocks in the neighborhood. That project died due to the inability of inserting the 4.6 engine/trans from underneath. They'd have had to re-do the entire section of the assembly floor.
Is it simpler to put a loud muffler set-up on an LS than to switch one AJ engine for another similar one? Of course! But the engine project IS eminently do-able. The LS ECM is re-programmable and much of the government-mandated 'stuff' can be done away with. When all the ECM input/outputs for the '02 LS are getting readings within the programmed parameters, it'll be happy. There're a lot of extraneous 'required' items that can be eliminated to both clean-up and simplify the engine compartment. I live in Michigan---we no longer even have inspections.
All the comfort items in the car from the factory will be retained. Auxiliary gauges will provide additional information regarding the added features.
KS
I'll simply say this---When I was a kid, I knew a guy who put the entire Merlin engine from a P-51 into an early Ford sedan and drove it on the street---not quite as a grocery-getter, but... Alongside such a feat, transplanting one AJ engine into another AJ engine bay would be a lesser effort.
I worked at Ford for some years and have raced Fords for all my life since I was 16 and made my first trip down a quarter-mile---in a '53 Merc. I don't begin to know everything about everything but I know who knows who---and that's much better.
When FoMoCo had the prototype operation at McLaren do a feasibility study regarding putting a 4.6 V-8 into the LS, part of what the McLaren people did was to cast, from magnesium, a 'flatter' intake manifold so the factory hood could still be used. Ultimately, they built two complete running cars. I was writing an engine series for Mustang Illustrated Magazine at the time and dealing with an engineer who was doing, among other things, liaison between the 'Skunk-Works' at Ford and the McLaren people. On several occasions, I met him in the prototype shop and while there I got a tour. I even drove one of the LSs for a few blocks in the neighborhood. That project died due to the inability of inserting the 4.6 engine/trans from underneath. They'd have had to re-do the entire section of the assembly floor.
Is it simpler to put a loud muffler set-up on an LS than to switch one AJ engine for another similar one? Of course! But the engine project IS eminently do-able. The LS ECM is re-programmable and much of the government-mandated 'stuff' can be done away with. When all the ECM input/outputs for the '02 LS are getting readings within the programmed parameters, it'll be happy. There're a lot of extraneous 'required' items that can be eliminated to both clean-up and simplify the engine compartment. I live in Michigan---we no longer even have inspections.
All the comfort items in the car from the factory will be retained. Auxiliary gauges will provide additional information regarding the added features.
KS
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1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
isn't that what I said?
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cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
That's what I said you said.
KS
KS
XJLS8
LVC Member
Thank you cammerfe. That answered my question. I also ran across your Land Speed LS thread as well.
Fortunate for you but not for me. The reason I looked past even bothering with an engine swap (forced induction AJ33) was because over here in the NE if it came with any sort of factory emissions compliant system you bet your bottom that system has to be retained with any engine swap if the car is to be registered for legal operation on any state roadway. Also the engine swapped in must be the same age as the vehicle or newer. Having to retain the EGR and EVAP as well as have it correspond with the OBD system (all DTCs accounted for and trip when conditions warrant) for state inspections is past the amount of work id ever want to get into just for a factory forced induction AJ33 engine swap. I wouldnt want anymore power out of the LS than the 400-420hp the AJ33 makes in the Jaguars, and if I ever decide its time for more power out of the LS ill just copy the upper intake of the AJ33 and have one custom made for the AJ35 then proceed with the rest.
Fortunate for you but not for me. The reason I looked past even bothering with an engine swap (forced induction AJ33) was because over here in the NE if it came with any sort of factory emissions compliant system you bet your bottom that system has to be retained with any engine swap if the car is to be registered for legal operation on any state roadway. Also the engine swapped in must be the same age as the vehicle or newer. Having to retain the EGR and EVAP as well as have it correspond with the OBD system (all DTCs accounted for and trip when conditions warrant) for state inspections is past the amount of work id ever want to get into just for a factory forced induction AJ33 engine swap. I wouldnt want anymore power out of the LS than the 400-420hp the AJ33 makes in the Jaguars, and if I ever decide its time for more power out of the LS ill just copy the upper intake of the AJ33 and have one custom made for the AJ35 then proceed with the rest.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
There is an extremely detailed build-up in the archives in which a blower from a T-bird was adapted to an LS. The car was ultimately pranged on the E-way and totaled, so it's no longer with us and the recent changes at photobucket may well have done great damage to the record. But it'll be worth reading.
KS
KS
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
and the best part of an M90 build is parts are cheap and plentiful and the LS's engine is small enough to still be in the upper range of where an M90 is fairly efficient (well as efficient as a non TVS roots blower can be)
the hardest part would be to fab up a custom intake to bolt it up
the hardest part would be to fab up a custom intake to bolt it up
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Ultimately, the best answer may well be a pair of turbos. The problem is that the composite intake manifold would be likely to leak or fail if more than moderate boost were to be used. One could use the Aston Martin manifold, an aluminium casting---but it goes for $5K new and used ones aren't in any sense thick on the ground. I believe one of the dedicated intake manifold fabricators could make one up for the same money and it'd be more efficient.
KS
KS
XJLS8
LVC Member
Ill have to look into the AJ37 intake casting. I know pretty much all years of the 4.3 and 4.7 AJ37 engines in the V8 Vantage were unique and not much in common with the AJv8s in the Jaguars/LS. The shop I used to work out of tries to buy all the British automobile insurance wrecks from the Boston area. They had at least 12-15 Aston Martins when I left. Ill take a ride up there one day and poke around for Intake purposes.
Once I get another AJ35 in my shop I can actually try the 4.2L upper intake on it for fitment and see where I want to go from there if ever attempting to use the M112 on the AJ35 in the future. The Yards I get my insurance wrecks out of hardly ever get Gen II LS cars that I can buy for parts to play around with.
Once I get another AJ35 in my shop I can actually try the 4.2L upper intake on it for fitment and see where I want to go from there if ever attempting to use the M112 on the AJ35 in the future. The Yards I get my insurance wrecks out of hardly ever get Gen II LS cars that I can buy for parts to play around with.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
When Rocket in Lansing, MI was running the 'Works' Jag road racing team, they had a complete inventory of parts for their engines, right up to specially-cast blocks with improved oiling and the deletion of non-useful passages, as well as extra material in critical areas. They used A-M intake manifolds in their N/A engines, as well as after-market dry-sump oiling systems.
Tony Gentilozzi was very helpful to me in my land-speed efforts and I spent enough time in their shop to have a fairly comprehensive view of what's possible. He was fairly adamant that I needed one of his special blocks for my high-boost purposes, but since I run only one mile at boost, it seemed to me to be overkill since the blocks were designed for such as Sebring and LeMans with hour-after-hour hammering.
KS
Tony Gentilozzi was very helpful to me in my land-speed efforts and I spent enough time in their shop to have a fairly comprehensive view of what's possible. He was fairly adamant that I needed one of his special blocks for my high-boost purposes, but since I run only one mile at boost, it seemed to me to be overkill since the blocks were designed for such as Sebring and LeMans with hour-after-hour hammering.
KS
