I was just thinking about the LS, and how it didn't sell all that well for Lincoln, and I am curious why? I test drove the LS back in the day when they were new, and I thought it was a really nice car, I ended up buying the CTS because I liked it better, but they were very similar, and both did the same thing for their brands, so why was the CTS so successful and saved the Cadillac brand, when the LS didn't sell very well? I mean if i'm correct wasn't the LS the car of the year or at least in the running for 2000?
What Went Wrong?
- Thread starter eots44
- Start date
Maybe they were expensive for what they were? I honestly don't remember how much it was, I do remember not enjoying the dealership experience I got from them, it seemed once I mentioned Cadillac and the CTS they became really pushy and wanted me to buy it.
waggs
Dedicated LVC Member
My 03 was around 43,000 new
The styling for the CTS was different and eye catching back in the day. While the LS styling was a wannabe BMW. Even now Lincoln can't get the styling right. People need to know it's a Lincoln without even looking at the badge and it needs to be eye catching.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
I think that it was a marketing failure combined with Lincoln being unwilling to give the LS enough time to build a following.
1. They marketed against BMW. The LS was a similar price and had better specs, but there is no way that most BMW buyers were going to switch to anything that didn't have BMW, Mercedes, or Audi on the nameplate.
2. It was too expensive for the typical Lincoln buyer that only wanted luxury and didn't care much about performance.
3. They didn't give it enough time. The 2nd gen was a great improvement on the 1st gen, but after one year of the 2nd gen, they stopped doing any positive changes to it. From 2004 to 2006, they only eliminated features and did minor reliability improvements.
4. The LS was a joint project between Lincoln and Jaguar. When Ford sold off Jaguar, the LS pretty much had to go away anyhow.
5. Lincoln was already starting the move to become the new Mercury. Really, Ford should have killed the Lincoln badge and left Mercury, instead of killing Mercury and making Lincoln cheaper.
1. They marketed against BMW. The LS was a similar price and had better specs, but there is no way that most BMW buyers were going to switch to anything that didn't have BMW, Mercedes, or Audi on the nameplate.
2. It was too expensive for the typical Lincoln buyer that only wanted luxury and didn't care much about performance.
3. They didn't give it enough time. The 2nd gen was a great improvement on the 1st gen, but after one year of the 2nd gen, they stopped doing any positive changes to it. From 2004 to 2006, they only eliminated features and did minor reliability improvements.
4. The LS was a joint project between Lincoln and Jaguar. When Ford sold off Jaguar, the LS pretty much had to go away anyhow.
5. Lincoln was already starting the move to become the new Mercury. Really, Ford should have killed the Lincoln badge and left Mercury, instead of killing Mercury and making Lincoln cheaper.
Well thanks everyone! That's probably one reason I liked the CTS more, I mean the 3.6L was incredible, and still hauls ass today for what it is, but I definitely like how eye catching and unique it is, you really can't say there's many other cars like it on the road. It's a shame the LS didn't do better, from what I've read on here, and from what I remember of the test drive, they seem like nice cars.
FDR
Dedicated LVC Member
As you mentioned, the LS was car of the year in 2000, it's debut model year. The ls, however, ran from 2000-2006. Your average BMW owner probably couldn't tell the two "generations" apart. They didn't improve and upgrade the LS enough to justify a 7 year run honestly. The Germans come out with updated styling ever 2-4 years. The LS just got different lights and a better arm rest instead of a new look. Honestly, in the global market, the LS is really a single generation with a minor facelift. Here at LVC we know the generations because we have a biased view. But seriously, by 06 the LS should have at least had more power than a measly 30hp upgrade just from variable timing. Imagine the LS ultimate having a derivative of the S-Type R 4.2 super charged engine.
Ford/Lincoln made an amazing car but quickly stuck it in a nursing home and waited for it to die instead of getting it a new heart, hips, and knees. Granted, the end of the LS was around the time Ford started making huge changes because of financial trouble (the same revisions GM and Chrysler made 3 years later but before actually tanking, which is why Ford didn't take a bail out), but I wish they did more.
The LS was also poorly marketed. The Pontiac G8 was also an awesome car with no marketing and only lasted 1.5 years. I didn't know about them nor the GTO until around 2009, and I come from a family big on cars, although we are Ford people.
Ford/Lincoln made an amazing car but quickly stuck it in a nursing home and waited for it to die instead of getting it a new heart, hips, and knees. Granted, the end of the LS was around the time Ford started making huge changes because of financial trouble (the same revisions GM and Chrysler made 3 years later but before actually tanking, which is why Ford didn't take a bail out), but I wish they did more.
The LS was also poorly marketed. The Pontiac G8 was also an awesome car with no marketing and only lasted 1.5 years. I didn't know about them nor the GTO until around 2009, and I come from a family big on cars, although we are Ford people.
jjcool00
Dedicated LVC Member
Not for nothing, but there were hundreds of things changed from Gen I to Gen II
I didn't know about he G8 until 2009 as well, and I only found out about it when I went into the dealership and saw it, I test drove the GXP model with the big Supercharged 6.2L, and man that was one hell of a car! I loved it, and almost bought it, but I was still making payments on my CTS and wanted to pay that off and have it be paid off for a while before I got roped into something else. LOL but I have to say I was very very tempted!
It was actually a combination of issues....
The LS was VERY expensive to manufacture; all that aluminum ain't cheap!! After the first year the LS NEVER sold enough copies to keep the model viable. TOTAL 6-year run was less than a single year of Mustangs.
The dealers didn't know how to sell the LS. They didn't know what the LS was and tried marketing it as a mini-Continental to Blue Hairs and not young (35-45) upper-moving professionals who wanted to move into a sporty luxury car. Lincoln set up an autocross course in Irvine (when their headquarters was there. Now it's Taco Bell's...... Metaphorically appropriate to me) for us January 2001 and the important Lincoln suits were there; Jim Rogers, VP Marketing; Jonathon Crocker, head suspension engineer (optimal height for the LS is 3/4" lower) and Mark Kovalsky, chief transmission calibrator. I don't think I'll ever forget what Jim said about why the LS..... "We conducted a survey and found out the average age of our buyer was 63. We did the same survey 10 years latter and found the average age to be 73. It didn't take us long to figure out that we would be out of buyers before too long!!" He also said he would break the knees of any dealer that put a carriage top on an LS. They could do what ever they wanted to the other vehicles, but they were NOT TO TOUCH THE LS!!!!
Lincoln didn't market the LS.... AT ALL!! I got to drive some young'ens from the advertising company in the prototype '03's on Angeles Crest Hwy spring of '03. They had some really good commercials (google them) that weren't aired; much.
The LS was slated for sale in Europe and when that got axed (can't compete internally with Jaguar!!) so did the LS.
The LS was the size of a 7-Series for the price of a base 3-Series. Revert back to dealers as to why the LS failed against BMW (Lincoln actually purchased a 5-Series and engineered the LS after their example which there are so many engineering similarities).
Nasser's buying spree left little money and stretched what was left too thin. Lincoln didn't have the money or time to develop the LS into what it should have become. Just look at the products post-LS; nothing but re-bodied Fords.
The LS was the quintessential wrong product at the wrong time. The dealers (who have quite a bit of power over the manufacturers) didn't sell it correctly and wouldn't pay for the advertising. I can't count how many times (like EVERYTIME) I've purchased a car and knew more about the car than the salesdrone. I instructed THEM on the features!!
The LS was VERY expensive to manufacture; all that aluminum ain't cheap!! After the first year the LS NEVER sold enough copies to keep the model viable. TOTAL 6-year run was less than a single year of Mustangs.
The dealers didn't know how to sell the LS. They didn't know what the LS was and tried marketing it as a mini-Continental to Blue Hairs and not young (35-45) upper-moving professionals who wanted to move into a sporty luxury car. Lincoln set up an autocross course in Irvine (when their headquarters was there. Now it's Taco Bell's...... Metaphorically appropriate to me) for us January 2001 and the important Lincoln suits were there; Jim Rogers, VP Marketing; Jonathon Crocker, head suspension engineer (optimal height for the LS is 3/4" lower) and Mark Kovalsky, chief transmission calibrator. I don't think I'll ever forget what Jim said about why the LS..... "We conducted a survey and found out the average age of our buyer was 63. We did the same survey 10 years latter and found the average age to be 73. It didn't take us long to figure out that we would be out of buyers before too long!!" He also said he would break the knees of any dealer that put a carriage top on an LS. They could do what ever they wanted to the other vehicles, but they were NOT TO TOUCH THE LS!!!!
Lincoln didn't market the LS.... AT ALL!! I got to drive some young'ens from the advertising company in the prototype '03's on Angeles Crest Hwy spring of '03. They had some really good commercials (google them) that weren't aired; much.
The LS was slated for sale in Europe and when that got axed (can't compete internally with Jaguar!!) so did the LS.
The LS was the size of a 7-Series for the price of a base 3-Series. Revert back to dealers as to why the LS failed against BMW (Lincoln actually purchased a 5-Series and engineered the LS after their example which there are so many engineering similarities).
Nasser's buying spree left little money and stretched what was left too thin. Lincoln didn't have the money or time to develop the LS into what it should have become. Just look at the products post-LS; nothing but re-bodied Fords.
The LS was the quintessential wrong product at the wrong time. The dealers (who have quite a bit of power over the manufacturers) didn't sell it correctly and wouldn't pay for the advertising. I can't count how many times (like EVERYTIME) I've purchased a car and knew more about the car than the salesdrone. I instructed THEM on the features!!
pragmatic
Dedicated LVC Member
It was Jacques Nasser's baby, when Ford had major loses in 2001 and canned Jacques that ended any money for a second or third generation of the car since it was an orphan. Cadillac CTS kept improving and updating the car Lincoln did not.
When I purchased mine (in 2003) I had my choice down to two cars a used 2003 CTS 5MT with 19,000 miles for $19,000 and a used 2000 Lincoln LS 5MT with 37,000 miles for $17,000. As much as as wanted to get the CTS during the test drive (newer less miles) every time I looked at another part of the interior I noticed something cheap looking. This included the steering wheel, interior light switch, A-pillar trim, switch gear, gauge layout, etc. Two months later when test driving the Lincoln nothing like that hit me and I purchased it.
Thirteen years and 134,000 miles later the rust has got me thinking of a replacement and so far nothing I see impresses me. All the 4 door RWD cars I would consider are automatic (XJ8, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Genesis), too small (ATS), use too much fuel (Chevy SS). So if the rust does it in in the next year or so I'll decide where to compromise.
When I purchased mine (in 2003) I had my choice down to two cars a used 2003 CTS 5MT with 19,000 miles for $19,000 and a used 2000 Lincoln LS 5MT with 37,000 miles for $17,000. As much as as wanted to get the CTS during the test drive (newer less miles) every time I looked at another part of the interior I noticed something cheap looking. This included the steering wheel, interior light switch, A-pillar trim, switch gear, gauge layout, etc. Two months later when test driving the Lincoln nothing like that hit me and I purchased it.
Thirteen years and 134,000 miles later the rust has got me thinking of a replacement and so far nothing I see impresses me. All the 4 door RWD cars I would consider are automatic (XJ8, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Genesis), too small (ATS), use too much fuel (Chevy SS). So if the rust does it in in the next year or so I'll decide where to compromise.
RigsLS
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^ If that is the case, then well ... "Jacques Nasser" is one cool dude in my books for at least getting two Generations in during his tenure with Ford.
I'd buy him a dinner any day and hoist a beer simply for the love and dedication to the Lincoln LS. :Beer
I'd buy him a dinner any day and hoist a beer simply for the love and dedication to the Lincoln LS. :Beer
^ Jacques Nasser (pretending to hold a degas bottle)
StarPower
Active LVC Member
I just posted in one of the other threads about how if Lincoln had kept up with the LS and introduced high performance variants it could have shifted their image like the CTS (and especially the -V) did for Cadillac. However, it takes a lot of time to shift a brand's image and build a following like that, and unfortunately it seems Lincoln couldn't afford to take the time with the LS.
Now, nobody (except the people on here) even know what the LS is. The certainly don't expect a RWD V8 sport sedan from Lincoln.
When I first saw the thread title "What Went Wrong?" my first thought was "probably coils or a coolant leak." Anybody else think like this?
Now, nobody (except the people on here) even know what the LS is. The certainly don't expect a RWD V8 sport sedan from Lincoln.
When I first saw the thread title "What Went Wrong?" my first thought was "probably coils or a coolant leak." Anybody else think like this?
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FDR
Dedicated LVC Member
Can you name all 500? Change doesn't mean better, just different. The headlights, parking lights, and tail lights all changed. The parking brake went electronic. The center armrest was widened. VVTi was introduced. A 3rd cat was added. Exhaust tips were raised into bumper cutouts. Some new wheels were available. A chrome waterfall grille was available. LS badges were added. The center console stack was turned silver and made more efficient use of space. The intake was changed. I'm not saying these things aren't important, but the only people left who can name more than 5 of the "over 500" changes for 2003 are the people here on this forum. We're a dedicated and biased group. It just wasn't enough to resuscitate an 8th year without an actual new generation. I dont thin it should have gone past 4 in my opinion. Many of the upgrades were really just repairs on the first gen's problems and shortcomings. Just look at how many parts are interchangeable because there were few major changes.
That said, I love my LS, even when it's the most difficult car I've worked on, and can't think of many cars I'd rather have at this point in life. I want a RWD V8 sedan or wagon. Not a coupe and not a hatchback. The only thing I'd greatly prefer is a manual, but with those traits I'd be looking at a significantly pricier German (AWD Audi or BMW) or GM (CTS-V or G8 GXP). I can't imagine a Marauder would be too difficult to swap in a manual with it's Cobra 4v motor. Hmm... Heck of a lot more power potential than the LS, too. I can't ever let go of my LS though for sentimental reasons, though.