Very rough morning, coolant leak and trans possible.

[SoulSoak]

So I dropped my wife off at her moms today and headed home to clean up the car. When I got finished with the inside, I was about to start on the outside when I noticed some puddles.

I have coolant leaking from near the 9N499 elbow, but am yet to discover if it's from the elbow seal or if it's from elsewhere. There is coolant sitting in the small valley right infront of the elbow but could be coming from the water pump?

Then I also have some orange fluid leaking from what seems to be where the trans housing boots to the engine block. However it's not leaking from the metal seal that's between the two. It's leaking from this small rubber gasket that presses into the trans housing.

So I have two different leaks. Green coolant from the area described, and orange fluid from the area described. I am going to investigate further once the engine cools. I will pull the intake manifold etc. I currently have another vehicle to drive so I'm not going to let this ruin my weekend. Here's photos regarding the issues described.




And to thos who don't know, this is a 2003 LS8. It has had all new cooling components installed including everything minus the water pump less than 2 years ago. All OEM components.

Appreciate all advice, and thank you.

 

[joegr]

Unfortunately, you know the drill on the front coolant leak. I had big troubles there with my 04 when I changed out everything. I would get coolant laying there after a drive (I couldn't make it leak just sitting there). I even replaced the three front plastic pieces again (about a one week period). Finally, I pulled everything out, cleaned the metal mating surfaces really good, and put tack seal on all the gaskets. No leaks after that. I did also replace the water pump ( I was desperate to solve the problem), but I don't think it was at fault.

On the rear leak, I don't think I would ever describe transmission fluid as orange. Is is possible some coolant went back that way and mixed with some rust?

 

[SoulSoak]

Unfortunately, you know the drill on the front coolant leak. I had big troubles there with my 04 when I changed out everything. I would get coolant laying there after a drive (I couldn't make it leak just sitting there). I even replaced the three front plastic pieces again (about a one week period). Finally, I pulled everything out, cleaned the metal mating surfaces really good, and put tack seal on all the gaskets. No leaks after that. I did also replace the water pump ( I was desperate to solve the problem), but I don't think it was at fault.

On the rear leak, I don't think I would ever describe transmission fluid as orange. Is is possible some coolant went back that way and mixed with some rust?

Yeah I definitely know the drill with the cooling plastics, really hoping it's just the O ring seal where 9N499 sits in the top of the engine block valley. If it ends up being the water pump, no big deal either.

However as to the rear leak I really hope you're correct on it being coolant that has traveled back. I do see some green Prestone has found it's way down the engine valley and is dripping down the trans. However the area where this leak came from does not appear it could have been a result of drain back or blow by. It's literally leaking from this rubber seal insert, even at the top portion of the seal where coolant isn't able to drain from.

 

[SoulSoak]

Might be because I'm just frustrated and forgetting something, but I can't get my degas reservoir to drain. I've opened the radiator pet cock, disconnected the lower radiator hose, and removed degas and engine fill caps. Is it not supposed to drain?

 

[joegr]

If you remove only the degas cap and the radiator drain, then a lot of the degas bottle should drain. If you remove the engine fill cap, then probably not so much. Anyway, there's no need to drain it, unless you are replacing the degas too.

As long as you are at it, remove the top right (passenger) radiator bracket. Look down at the front of the radiator side tank at the top. See if it's starting to crack there yet. Both of mine did.

Normally, you would expect to find fluid from leaks from the torque converter or oil leaking from the rear main engine seal behind that inspection cover. Did this leak ever drip down, or did you find it up on the cover while looking for the coolant leak? If the latter, I wouldn't worry about it yet.

 

[SoulSoak]

If you remove only the degas cap and the radiator drain, then a lot of the degas bottle should drain. If you remove the engine fill cap, then probably not so much. Anyway, there's no need to drain it, unless you are replacing the degas too.

As long as you are at it, remove the top right (passenger) radiator bracket. Look down at the front of the radiator side tank at the top. See if it's starting to crack there yet. Both of mine did.

Normally, you would expect to find fluid from leaks from the torque converter or oil leaking from the rear main engine seal behind that inspection cover. Did this leak ever drip down, or did you find it up on the cover while looking for the coolant leak? If the latter, I wouldn't worry about it yet.

I replaced the radiator with a Spectra last fall. As for that unknown leak, it was dripping down which led me to investigate there. However when I pulled that black rubber seal plug, it was dry behind it. So I suppose it's possible that coolant could have caught wind flow while driving and made it's way to that seal area and mislead me. Though Rig hates me when I do this, I did taste the fluids from both leak areas. Though the rear leak looked brownish, it tasted sweet and bitter like coolant or brake fluid. Since I know theres no brake fluid leak or brake issues, I've decided it must just be coolant for now.

Anyhow, yes I've been busy.








Judging by the leak trail, I've ruled out the water pump. I may still order one and replace it just because everythings already apart and it's accessible (aftermarket okay? Or Motorcraft only for the water pump too?)

The leak appears to be coming from the front side of the 94N99 where it seats to the block. Though the car has been sitting a few hours prior to me having it disected enough to investigate, some of the coolant trail has evaporated and dried enough for me to be unsure if the leak could be coming from seal that seats the 94N99 to the main plastic body. Underside of tubular section of 94N99 is dry, but could have dried residue.

My route now will be to remove 9N499, inspect O Ring seals, take a pneumatic sander and clean engine block seal face, use a drop of oil and coat the seals (if appear to be good, not pinched, cut, or damaged) then reinstall.

Any advice? Oh and the water pump advice please. Thanks guys.

 

[RigsLS]

Though Rig hates me when I do this, I did taste the fluids from both leak areas. Though the rear leak looked brownish, it tasted sweet and bitter like coolant or ....

or ... road kill juice ???

What I tell you about tasting automotive fluids !!!

Like at the urinals, it's ok to play with it but don't be talking to it !!!

GLWR ... shame you just did the plastics not long ago and now this.

 

[joegr]

Wow, you remove the injectors to remove the intake? Way easier to disconnect at the quick disconnect and pull the whole thing (throttle body, intake, fuel rails, ...) as an assembly.
It always looks like it is coming from the bottom of the 45 degree pipe, but I think that is probably the least likely place. My experience with my Ranger was enough to keep me away from aftermarket water pumps. The water pump on the ranger was good at close to 200K miles, but I had to replace the gasket on the timing cover (common coolant leak point). Since I had to take the pump off, I threw it away and put a new aftermarket on. That one failed in one week. I went through about three more (warranty). On the 2nd one, I ordered the Ford pump. I put it in when the next one failed. That was probably a year ago and the Ford one is still going strong.
That said, I think that Airtex makes the factory pump for Ford for the LS, so you should be okay to buy aftermarket Airtex brand.

 

[don-ohio]

You don't use the Rain-X windshield fluid do you? It is orange and when you spray your windshield,it goes every where. Just a thought about the orange color you mentioned. don-ohio ^)

 

[SoulSoak]

Wow, you remove the injectors to remove the intake? Way easier to disconnect at the quick disconnect and pull the whole thing (throttle body, intake, fuel rails, ...) as an assembly.
It always looks like it is coming from the bottom of the 45 degree pipe, but I think that is probably the least likely place. My experience with my Ranger was enough to keep me away from aftermarket water pumps. The water pump on the ranger was good at close to 200K miles, but I had to replace the gasket on the timing cover (common coolant leak point). Since I had to take the pump off, I threw it away and put a new aftermarket on. That one failed in one week. I went through about three more (warranty). On the 2nd one, I ordered the Ford pump. I put it in when the next one failed. That was probably a year ago and the Ford one is still going strong.
That said, I think that Airtex makes the factory pump for Ford for the LS, so you should be okay to buy aftermarket Airtex brand.

Normally I'd remove together as a whole assembly, but I had bought a 12 pack and figured I'd take some extra time.

Unfortunately it seems I'm going to have to do quite a bit of sanding to get the permatex tack seal off my housing and engine block. When I removed the 94N99 elbow I did find a rather large lip built up on the sealing surface. I believe that to be the culprit. Will order new seals, water pump, etc and let you guys know how things go.

 

[SoulSoak]

All my new parts and seals came in yesterday. Plan on getting this all back together today. Hey Joe can you link me the torque specs on the cooling plastics and intake manifold torque specs and sequence? I know it's listed in my latest threads section but it's burried and will take me forever to find.

 

[joegr]

http://deneau.info/ls/s6x~us~en~file=s6x31006.htm~gen~ref.htm
http://deneau.info/ls/s6x~us~en~file=s6xs330l.htm~gen~ref.htm

 

[SoulSoak]

Everything's installed and back together. Just finished bleeding. Waiting for it to cool now. Bleed procedure went well. No leaks. Except for the water leak from the AC condensor that had me freaking out until I tasted it (Rig (; ).

Will update once I take her out for a hell ride.

 

[SoulSoak]

And I'm really hoping the leak is fixed because I have to pull the front cover off the navigator to change the chains, guides, tensioners, and seals. It has significant timing chain slap/drag for the first 2 seconds on startup. It doesn't make any noise while running or while a warm startup. I'm using a Motorcraft OEM oil filter too so I know it isn't doing this due to drain back from a junk oil filter. Not excited about this next job but it has to be done before July 4th because I'm taking my wife and kids to Chicago Oaire airport. They going to Mexico until August 17th. Yayyyy break for me lol

 

[SoulSoak]

Well she's all bled out and fixed. Took her for a 45 min drive. No leaks, no overheating etc. I was using my Torque app and Bluetooth obd2 device to watch live data. The temp reached 216F at the highest, and that was when I had it parked idling for a good 10min. Is that abnormally hot? The temp needle in the car never rose above horizontal.

 

[rlk]

Any luck figuring out the leak at the bellhousing? Just noticed the same thing on my wife's 2001 LS8 while changing engine oil yesterday. I'm hoping it's not a freeze plug on the rear of the engine. Not sure if there are any. Pleases let us know if you figure it out. Thanks.

 

[joegr]

Any luck figuring out the leak at the bellhousing? Just noticed the same thing on my wife's 2001 LS8 while changing engine oil yesterday. I'm hoping it's not a freeze plug on the rear of the engine. Not sure if there are any. Pleases let us know if you figure it out. Thanks.

Coolant leaking from the front of the engine (water outlet, thermostat housing, ...) will run under the intake manifold and come out where shown, sometimes.

 

[rlk]

Thanks. I'll do some more looking. Was rushed at the time. Have all the cooling system plastic parts, just need time to replace them. Replacing my DCCV valve at the same time. Again. This time, auxiliary coolant pump started weeping coolant and dripped right down on DCCV connector. Shorted and ruined plug and male terminals on the valve. Sigh. Good thing my wife LOVES this car

 

[EsaEsLaElEs]

I've been reading and learning here for a few weeks. After getting plenty of c/s info and how-to info I began to search specifically for the 2nd pic in this thread! On finding it I read with great anticipation.
Anyway, I've had my 2004 3.9L for nearly 3 yrs, bought it just past 100k miles, it now has 178K. From what I've gathered here the p.o. (or used dealership) must have already dealt with the plastics and stuff at least once already. 3 mo's ago I replaced the upper rad. hose due to the plastic cracking, and as predicted here, there would be plenty more to look forward to. Not a mechanic, I planned to just search and learn.

About 6 wks ago, was about town with my wife, doing errands, shops, etc. stopping, starting, starting, stopping. The temp gauge got warm(er) I noticed once, but it settled back to normal as we continued the day. I didn't bother to stop and look under the hood - or even underneath. On the way home it overheated but only some drips underneath and of course steaming but not excessively. Stopped for 15 min. then turning the heat full blast brought the temp down and got us home. As it sits it had required nearly 2 gallons of distilled water (more water in than colored coolant).

It's literally leaking from this rubber seal insert, even at the top portion of the seal where coolant isn't able to drain from.

SoulSoak did not post after "bled out and fixed." Months later rlk noted the same problem but didn't post again (after Aux. pump replaced?) and leak fixed?). The existence of coolant watery fluid (I didn't taste it) is very real behind that panel/insert pictured in post 1, picture 2. Has this come up again?

I started the car and kept at 2000 rpm until things started happening. An obvious leak at Thermostat housing cover. Crawling under the car (still running) straight above and rear-most of engine, drooling down both sides of trans is prob. degas tank hose. But wait, what's this??? I turned the car off. The inside of this insert WAS very much wet (unlike SoulSoak), the drip was only from inside that rubber insert. I cleaned the insert and dry, cleaned the surrounding area to repeat this test. As I was re-inserting the thing, pushing upward to seat it firmly, several large drops flowed from the above side of this opening - the rubber insert caught some coolant (water) and dripped down. The motor had been off for about 10 minutes by then.

I believe I found the answer in this post by summing the valuable info of what was replied:

Normally, you would expect to find fluid from leaks from the torque converter or oil leaking from the rear main engine seal behind that inspection cover.

Coolant leaking from the front of the engine (water outlet, thermostat housing, ...) will run under the intake manifold and come out where shown, sometimes.

I did read a little on what Joe thinks of theories from non-mechanical member advice. Agreed. But is it possible that after driving along, losing a gallon or so of 220 degree coolant at highway speed, this area where one or both of my leak sources was ending up (as mentioned) was actually making it's way around and past that rubber insert cover? A theory for sure which, if it was happening that way, instead of being a leak more accurately a re-leak.