Supercharged engine build for LS8???

[rocket5979]

Hello all. I am new to this particular site. I am looking to buy an LS8 in a few months. I am first gathering information for my upcoming possible project. I would be buying this car for a project car/daily driver. I have already seen small bits here and there on the engine and the ease(or rather DIS-ease) of forced induction for these vehicles. I see that the engine is high compression which lends well to nitrous use as I have noticed some of you run. My dilemma is as such. I have an XB-1A centrifugal supercharger with all the goodies such as mas air, fuel pump, injectors and such. It is all brand new and I dont intend on selling it. It was originally going to be used on a 5.0 OHV vehicle but that vehicle has since been totalled. The other option was a 94-95 5.0 stang. But with family life being a big possibility in the near future I have decided that the LS is a better suited vehicle. This all brings me to my question. I know an awful lot about 4.6 SOHC and DOHC engines as well as the 5.0 engines, but I have not a clue of these 3.9 DOHC's. Can anyone tell me what the internals are made of? Or, besides the jag XK8, which other Ford engine these are similar enough to for parts usage. I am thinking in terms of obtaining forged connecting rods, pistons, and crank and such whether it be for another modular engine and can be used in this one or even fully custom parts as a last resort. Anyone know of any engine builders that have tinkered with and torn apart an LS8 engine? Basically put, I plan on doing a decent amount of work on this vehicle. Nothing superpowerful, just a very meaty powerband with the assistance of the centrifugal charger. The supercharger is mandatory as I already have it and need a vehicle to put it in. Anything you can suggest or link me to I would be grateful. Please no dissuasion attempts unless it comes with a technical reason why. Thanks and I hope to be not only be a member, but a valuable contributer to this site.

 

[Quik LS]

Can anyone tell me what the internals are made of? Or, besides the jag XK8, which other Ford engine these are similar enough to for parts usage. I am thinking in terms of obtaining forged connecting rods, pistons, and crank and such whether it be for another modular engine and can be used in this one or even fully custom parts as a last resort.

all internals are unique to this engine. there are no aftermarket replacements available - so stock is what you have to work with. the trannie should be good up to 340hp.

the high compression ratio is an issue - but the consenses is that we should be able to run 4 - 5psi without problems.

an engine swap would be very expensive - since the PCM in the LS is unique - you would have to run one computer for the new engine and figure out how to make it talk to the LS's computer running the rest of the car. We've discussed it many times - can't figure out a way to pull it off.

You're biggest issue is controlling the air/fuel and spark - since you would have to 'crack' the PCM. This has just started - we were able to 'flash' updated tunes into my PCM about a month ago - it's still not bullet proof. SCT has a flasher that can do it, weither you can use it or not depends on if you PCM code is in their 'cracked' database.

Thomas Knight from Boosthead.com is working on a Eaton-style supercharger as we speak - he did one for a Thunderbird on 'pimp my ride' and is looking to 'mass' produce the kit. He is taking deposits right now.

 

[rocket5979]

Thanks quik ls. Maybe I can help with one thing. The PTEC computer problem has been going on for a little while now. The LS was the first vehicle to have it back in 2000, then the 2002+ ford explorers had it and now all f-150's and mustangs have it too as of 05. I plan on highly modding my X for dragracing and have been dealing with those demons for a while. It seems that as of a few months ago they have been starting to crack the PTEC codes. SCTbeing the first to my knowledge that has done it. Also the tranny is almost exactly the same as the tranny in the new gen explorer(5R55W) and the one in the new gen 5 speed auto stangs(5R55S). There are already built versions(though not prevelant) of those around and their parts should be very interchangeable. The computer and tranny will not be an issue here soon with the advent of the 05 stangs. The LS and explorer's didnt generate enough interest within the aftermarket when they hit the streets with their new technology, but you will notice that when the 05 stangs hit the street the aftermarket caught up a little. And thank god we are pretty much automatically included in that for the tranny and computers. One thing that kind of sucks is that you cannot run a chip on these PTEC's due to the lack of a rear dataport like the EEC-V's had. I liked to use flipchips for nitrous purposes actually so I could switch between levels of air/fuel and also spark timing going from N/A to running a 100 shot of nitrous or so. There might be an aftermarket offering in the near future that plugs in between the harness and the computer, kind of like the crappy JET chips did, and will offer on the fly program swapping. It seems all other main aspects are worked out or will resolve themselves soon. I just would really like to know the specs on the engine, such as the connecting rod length and such. One other thing I got to ask is how big is the engine itself. I have seen pictures of the engine bays of peoples cars but cannot get a sense of the scale of the engine. My impression is that the engine while being a small displacement V-8 is also small in size too. Hey Quik, being that you probably know alot about this particular car and its limitations. If there was to be an engine swap what would be the best(size-wise) candidate to go into the LS engine bay. I am guessing that the aluminum 4.6 SOHC V-8 engine out of an explorer would be far to big in size? After all, a cowl hood probably would not fit the image of the LS. Thanks for the info. Maybe if we all get a few ideas churning with these new developments within the Ford/Lincoln community we can think of a way to get the modding process really started so we can dig into these cars!

 

[Quik LS]

If there was to be an engine swap what would be the best(size-wise) candidate to go into the LS engine bay. I am guessing that the aluminum 4.6 SOHC V-8 engine out of an explorer would be far to big in size? After all, a cowl hood probably would not fit the image of the LS.

Here is what a few LS engineers did in their free time.

Powertrain
* Specification: 2004 Roush 4.6L 2V Stage 3
* Supercharger: Roush M-90 with air to liquid intercooler at 10 psi of boost
* Headers: Ford Motor-Sport stainless steel
* Horsepower / Torque: 430 Hp @ 5250 rpm / 430 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm (Est.)

Transmission
* Model: 4R75W 4spd automatic
* Calibration: Unique transmission calibration for reduced shift times
* Temperature Monitoring: Unique algorithm to limit power/torque to prevent overheating


all the details here -> http://www.llsoc.com/V2R1/OLOA/default.asp

Ford Press release -> http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=17650

They had the issue I mentioned above - the PCM working the engine did not communicate with the PCM running the restof the car - so many gauges, interior stuff, ...etc didn't work like it should on a daily driver.

The engine bay is small - modern factories load the engine from underneath so the 3.9L is the biggest engine they could use - however - if you're gonna load it from the top - like OLOA LS did - you can cram a monster into it and deal with the hood issue later.

 

[rocket5979]

Well heck if they did it then at least we know it is doable. That 4.6 doesnt look as big as I thought it would be, in there. That might work out almost perfect. Buying a forged longblock for the X. Then take my stock engine out of the X and drop it in the LS running 6-7 psi boost. Then later maybe build the bottom end of it to run more boost. The hood issue would be a big thing with me. Though I want the speed and power I dont want it to look retarded. The hood would have to either stay stock or maybe have a little bit of a blister to it. Almost like a Cobra R hood does. But anything else would look too far out of place and kill the classy image of the car. Almost like a sleeper is what I am going for. At least not having an Eaton up top will lower my overall height in the engine bay. The whole PCM problem will probably be eliminated if they would have ran the whole system from a PTEC engine system. For daily driving purposes it would have been better to build and drop in an explorer aluminum engine with accessories, ignition, fuel and everything and roll with that. Though the 04 stangs are 4.6's also, they still use the EEC-V computer and are used to a 4 speed auto. So if they would have taken an engine with with all its little parts and stuff from a vehicle already using the same computer and compatible tranny that the LS uses then there would have been minimal to no computer issues, because both engine systems would be designed for use with the same PCM and transmission. Just reflash the existing PTEC in the LS for use with the 4.6 algorithms and it should be good. Not saying it would be drop in. But at least both engine systems speak the same language, in a sense. I am willing to bet that the reason they went with the 4.6 out of a stang versus an explorer is because back when they were doing all that stuff the 5R tranny series didnt have a single mod offered forit in terms of strengthening for power. Only reason I am figuring this is because I was on the route to doing the same thing till the PTEC was cracked and the new gen 5R trannies found an aftermarket following. If they are running the 4R75W tranny,then they are probably piggybacking the EEC-V PCM on top of the PTEC PCM so the EEC can control the engine(mainly the transmission)and the PTEC controls the rest of the car. It would be very hard to get those two computer systems to communicate with each other and function as a cohesive unit. With more new PTEC cars out, the LS has even more brothers to scavenge from.

 

[VTOgre]

I am really interested to see what some people can come up with. I have been dreaming fro a while that in a bout 4 years or so I am gonna completely rebuild one. Want to make it sport on the outside and under the hood but complete luxury inside. Hopefully the mustang will lead to some much needed available modifications especially PCM wise. The dream is to completely replace the engine and transmission and hopefully run with stage 2 turbo and nirtous. Granted this is a dream but it is something my dad has agreed to help me with if i can foot the bill.

 

[rocket5979]

I am really interested to see what some people can come up with. I have been dreaming fro a while that in a bout 4 years or so I am gonna completely rebuild one. Want to make it sport on the outside and under the hood but complete luxury inside. Hopefully the mustang will lead to some much needed available modifications especially PCM wise. The dream is to completely replace the engine and transmission and hopefully run with stage 2 turbo and nirtous. Granted this is a dream but it is something my dad has agreed to help me with if i can foot the bill.

Granted I dont know alot about the LS itself, namely the engine itself. But I do know alot about the technology that relates to and has thus far limited the development of forced induction systems for the LS. Thanks to Quik I am now aware that 4.6 engine swaps are possible(size). The PTEC is no longer a problem, the trannies have an aftermarket following with the 3V 4.6 05 GT stangs. The only thing, in my very limited knowledge of the LS, is that I am guessing that there will be size limitations in the engine bay. Turbos take up alot of space!!!! Not only do you have the turbo's themselves, you got twice as much induction to run and fit with the intercooler, not to mention the exhaust rerouted into the engine bay. Unless you were planning to do what I saw one fella do with a rear mounted turbo. I am not saying it will be impossible. With enough money anything becomes possible. It will be a very custom job, that much I can tell you.


One other question---What poundage is the stock 3.9 LS8 injectors rated for? I am thinking probably 19 lb/hr. Is it different?

 

[GoldCoastLs]

if it were only possible

Is there any way to make the LS computer think that it is controlling the engine...what kinds of sensors does it use to control the engine...find out how the sensors report data back to the computer, emulate it...and you've got a winner.

 

[VTOgre]

I was thinking the same thing. Since they are beginning to crack the LS's PCM, maybe someday in the future we can completely reprogram it to control whatever engine we want to throw in it. This is the type of thing I am hoping the mustang release will open up in the future. If this type of thing becomes available, my dream just might become reality.

And to rocket, I was planning on most of the job being custom anyways. I am an engineer so I will come up with original almost impossible ideas just like any other engineer would. Only one answer to them: custom. I might end up having to relocate some things to different areas of the car, but hopefully not the turbos. I want to open it up and see them. Myabe some of the other crap that isnt specifically engine related, i.e. windshield washer tank, ac unit, etc.

 

[rocket5979]

Is there any way to make the LS computer think that it is controlling the engine...what kinds of sensors does it use to control the engine...find out how the sensors report data back to the computer, emulate it...and you've got a winner.

No need to do that anymore. The reason those other people piggied the PCM's was because the technology wasnt available then, that is now. Now there is no need to do that since the PTEC's have been cracked.



Yeah the relocation of some things will definately open up alot of options and room for use with a turbo or charger.

BTW---I got an email into Manley right now asking what they may or may not have available for the 3.9 V-8 engine. Being that they do their own stuff and some of it custom they should be able to give an answer to getting lower compression forged internalsfor this engine. Once that is done then there is pretty much nothing stopping even a high boost application for this car with this engine. I would say that the best and most pheasible way to reach high power now is the use of a PTEC based engine system like the one out of an Explorer 4.6, or New Gen F-150 4.6 and swap it in. If a big enough group went in for the forged internals Manley might make a limited run and do a group buy. That is just a pipe dream as of now. But I will post any feedback I get from them. I had already contacted Scott@ VT and he pointed me to Manley. If Manley wont do it then other further options are limited. Just wait and see I suppose.

 

[LS4me]

Well heck if they did it then at least we know it is doable. That 4.6 doesnt look as big as I thought it would be, in there. That might work out almost perfect. Buying a forged longblock for the X. Then take my stock engine out of the X and drop it in the LS running 6-7 psi boost. Then later maybe build the bottom end of it to run more boost. The hood issue would be a big thing with me. Though I want the speed and power I dont want it to look retarded. The hood would have to either stay stock or maybe have a little bit of a blister to it. Almost like a Cobra R hood does. But anything else would look too far out of place and kill the classy image of the car. Almost like a sleeper is what I am going for. At least not having an Eaton up top will lower my overall height in the engine bay. The whole PCM problem will probably be eliminated if they would have ran the whole system from a PTEC engine system. For daily driving purposes it would have been better to build and drop in an explorer aluminum engine with accessories, ignition, fuel and everything and roll with that. Though the 04 stangs are 4.6's also, they still use the EEC-V computer and are used to a 4 speed auto. So if they would have taken an engine with with all its little parts and stuff from a vehicle already using the same computer and compatible tranny that the LS uses then there would have been minimal to no computer issues, because both engine systems would be designed for use with the same PCM and transmission. Just reflash the existing PTEC in the LS for use with the 4.6 algorithms and it should be good. Not saying it would be drop in. But at least both engine systems speak the same language, in a sense. I am willing to bet that the reason they went with the 4.6 out of a stang versus an explorer is because back when they were doing all that stuff the 5R tranny series didnt have a single mod offered forit in terms of strengthening for power. Only reason I am figuring this is because I was on the route to doing the same thing till the PTEC was cracked and the new gen 5R trannies found an aftermarket following. If they are running the 4R75W tranny,then they are probably piggybacking the EEC-V PCM on top of the PTEC PCM so the EEC can control the engine(mainly the transmission)and the PTEC controls the rest of the car. It would be very hard to get those two computer systems to communicate with each other and function as a cohesive unit. With more new PTEC cars out, the LS has even more brothers to scavenge from.

The OLA LS had MAJOR cooling problems. They couldn't keep the engine cool without some "uniquely" creative fabricating. Are you talking about an '03 or later LS? The '00-02's use a different protocal, as well as the 5R55N transmission. Just remember, each LSes pcm is unique to that LS. IOW, the program that works for one LS won't work on another.

 

[Quik LS]

Is there any way to make the LS computer think that it is controlling the engine...what kinds of sensors does it use to control the engine...find out how the sensors report data back to the computer, emulate it...and you've got a winner.

not easily - this is not a SMALL issue - you can not simply change which computer is talking with the LS - all the wiring, the data bus, several modules that talk to each other on the data bus, instrument cluster,....

even something as simple as pulling all the wiring out and re-wiring all the sensors to a new computer is not easy - since the LS uses a negative switched electical system.

 

[rocket5979]

The OLA LS had MAJOR cooling problems. They couldn't keep the engine cool without some "uniquely" creative fabricating. Are you talking about an '03 or later LS? The '00-02's use a different protocal, as well as the 5R55N transmission. Just remember, each LSes pcm is unique to that LS. IOW, the program that works for one LS won't work on another.

The LS's just as pretty much every other vehicle while having the same PCM as other fellow LS's have different codes. While these have different codes just like the EEC-V computers had too, they are still all the same computer, just flashed with a different set of perameters if different years. Computers of the same year same engine type should be completely interchangeable without reflash, except the keys will have to be reprogrammed or rather the PCM flashed to accept the existing keys due to the PATS. Different years or different engines will require a reflash. Also just like the EEC the computer can start out flashed and tagged for one original code and be dealer reflashed for a different one. That is why if any of you fellas had ever had problems getting an aftermarket burned chip to work with your EEC vehicle it was probably due to a dealer reflash that wasnt recorded as an updated computer code. My old EEC computer was not the code that was original from the factory it was reflashed for whatever updates and also the code was changed too. The PTEC's are the same way too. You can program a PTEC to a different code and to different settings too. Brian Herron formerly of Apten and now I believe part of the SCT team would be the best candidate to bring all the hazy understanding to light. He was the first person that I heard of that was reflashing the PTEC's. Bottom line is that if you can recode a computer then you can reflash any perameter in between. Maybe that SCT flasher can do it to that depth maybe not. But I know the real tuners can do it. That was my reason for saying that the computer issue is not a big deal anymore. I am not trying to cause a big stir or anything, just trying to let people in on a little more knowledge about the PTEC's. You all know alot more about these LS's than I do. But I know an awful lot about the computers in the LS's and other brethren who use the same computer. While not as easy to manipulate as the EEC's, it is still getting alot easier.

 

[Quik LS]

That was my reason for saying that the computer issue is not a big deal anymore. I am not trying to cause a big stir or anything, just trying to let people in on a little more knowledge about the PTEC's. You all know alot more about these LS's than I do. But I know an awful lot about the computers in the LS's and other brethren who use the same computer. While not as easy to manipulate as the EEC's, it is still getting alot easier.

This is just not a true statement. The LS has had the next gen PCM since 2000, and no tuner has cracked until about a month ago. Ford does just hand out the code, SCT had to spend a ton of time trying to reverse engineer the PCM and all the various versions of code - for each model, year and combination of drivetrain. Until a similar PCM was used in the F150 and Mustangs, the LS was not even looked at by the tuners since the investment to reverse engineer it would have an ROI with the small potential sale base of performance minded LS owners.

When you say:

But I know an awful lot about the computers in the LS's and other brethren who use the same computer.

- what other vechiles are you refferring to?

 

[rocket5979]

This is just not a true statement. The LS has had the next gen PCM since 2000, and no tuner has cracked until about a month ago. Ford does just hand out the code, SCT had to spend a ton of time trying to reverse engineer the PCM and all the various versions of code - for each model, year and combination of drivetrain. Until a similar PCM was used in the F150 and Mustangs, the LS was not even looked at by the tuners since the investment to reverse engineer it would have an ROI with the small potential sale base of performance minded LS owners.

When you say:
- what other vechiles are you refferring to?

Hey man not to be contrary but I have talked to Brian himself about this over a year ago. He has been working and able to reflash these computersfor about a year now. The customer tuner just came out the month ago but he has been able to flash those for a year with his equipment, back when he was still with Apten and also now that he is the manager of SCT. I will even quote him in an email if you like?

Brian Herron @ SCT
"I have been able to do it for about a year with
development equipment,
but we had to build a tuner that would allow
customers and dealers to
flash their PTEC vehicles. That was what took so
long."

Trust me, I would never say anything that would start nor promote untruth or misunderstanding within this community or any other forum that I frequent or moderate. As for the other brethren vehicle I refer to? In chronological order,there was the LS in 2000, then the Explorer in 02, 04 F-150 went PTEC, and in 05 the Mustang went PTEC too. Some of the engines are different, but the PCM's are the same. There are others that went to the PTEC in that time frame too, but I can think of these offhand. Research for the PTEC's may have started with the LS but it was boosted alot by the new gen Explorer's, hence my interest and conversations with Brian when he was still with Apten. Then skyrocketed when they announced that the new Mustangs would incorporate PTEC pcm's.

 

[Quik LS]

Yes - I too corresponded with Brian over a year ago and understand that they have been able to do one-offs for a while. He addressed the LLSOC a few times over the year. It's not useful until we can buy it and put it into our cars.

That's not what the point of the thread was - was it?

You were making generalized statements :

just trying to let people in on a little more knowledge about the PTEC's. But I know an awful lot about the computers in the LS's and other brethren who use the same computer.

exactly what is your knowledge about the computers in the LS?

 

[rocket5979]

The thing that I am trying to say is that reflashing was available for the PTEC vehicles for a while now. No, it was not be something handled by the end user. It would be something where you would have had to send the PCM in and have him personally reflash it. Though not super easy(especially if it is your only daily driver) it was still doable back then. Just because we didnt have handheld tuners till recent does not mean we didnt have some feasible means of reprogramming the pcm. I have no doubt that with your car or whatever was done, there was certain progress made in terms of handheld tuners and ease of use of it in the commercial market. But in terms of "cracking" the PTEC's, that is no recent accomplishment. I am not trying to downplay your car or be trivial, I am just stating what I know and how I came to that knowledge. It was either by correspondance with people in the business or by my own research. All I was saying is that the whole, "cracking the code", current mindset should be completely dispelled. People keep having these ideas put into their heads of things being more complicated than they really are. Less people will make the progress they otherwise would have made if not daunted by someone interpreting a certain task to be more cumbersome than it really is.

 

[Quik LS]

Agreed. I'm all about putting our heads together and figuring it out. At the end of the day the more sophisicated the cars become the less we'll be able to simply change without the expensive, advanced tools.

 

[rocket5979]

Agreed. I'm all about putting our heads together and figuring it out. At the end of the day the more sophisicated the cars become the less we'll be able to simply change without the expensive, advanced tools.

Yeah that kind of sucks. It is becoming much harder to mod personal vehicles in the home workshop.