Remembering 9/11/01

[JohnnyBz00LS]

 

[Calabrio]

Are you suggesting we invade Saudi Arabia?
What is your point exactly.

OH-I know. You refuse to understand the logic of our foreign policy, specifically the military operations in Iraq. If you want someone to explain it to you again, just ask.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Nope. We'll never forget what a pathetic failure the BuSh administration has been bringing the perpitrator of 9/11 to justice.

Gee, here it is, 9/18/09 and so far no attacks on the US soil. The US has now officially been safer under Obama's watch then it EVER was on BuSh's watch.

 

[Calabrio]

Nope. We'll never forget what a pathetic failure the BuSh administration has been bringing the perpitrator of 9/11 to justice.

I'm sure he agrees.

But, you ignorantly seem to think that Bin Laden is the sole perpetrator of the attack?

Gee, here it is, 9/18/09 and so far no attacks on the US soil. The US has now officially been safer under Obama's watch then it EVER was on BuSh's watch.

That was a stupid comment.
Based on all you've said in the past, I wouldn't really expect anything more from you.

 

[Icedphoenix]

please dont tell me you took to heart the lies vomited up by the bush admin about saddam if so where were all the super weapons the truth was we did go to the wrong place yes saddam was a bad man but hardly any connection to 9/11

 

[shagdrum]

please dont tell me you took to heart the lies vomited up by the bush admin about saddam if so where were all the super weapons the truth was we did go to the wrong place yes saddam was a bad man but hardly any connection to 9/11

Did Bush or any in his administration ever argue that Saddam was connected to 9/11?

 

[lincolnx2]

So why did we invade Iraq?

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Did Bush or any in his administration ever argue that Saddam was connected to 9/11?

What are you, 4 years old? Seriously. This childish game of yours doesn't even deserve a reply. But nonetheless........

Bush has repeatedly stated that Saddam was not connected to 9/11. However, those statements came only after the war. Prior to the war, Bush and other administration officials repeatedly strove to create the impression that the Iraqi dictator was directly involved in the attacks:

“We know that Iraq and the Al Qaida terrorist network share a common enemy: the United States of America. We know that Iraq and Al Qaida have had high-level contacts that go back a decade.” [Bush, 10/14/02]

“The use of armed forces against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.” [Bush’s Letter to Congress, 3/21/03]

“If we’re successful in Iraq … we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11.” [Cheney on NBC's Meet the Press, 9/14/03]

The effect was a public who supported Bush’s Iraq invasion based on this false premise, along with the equally false claim that Iraq had WMD. A Sept. 2003 poll found that seven in 10 Americans believed Saddam was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks. Nevertheless, Bush has tried to rewrite history and claim that he never made that connection in the first place, saying in May 2006, “First, just if I might correct a misperception, I don’t think we ever said — at least I know I didn’t say — that there was a direct connection between September the 11th and Saddam Hussein.”

Not only did the BuSh administration use tortue in a failed attempt to establish a connection between Saddam and 9/11, they also went to great lengths to muffle and discredit those who provided proof to the contrary........

 

[Calabrio]

So why did we invade Iraq?

Because it was part of a broader, idealistic foreign policy attempt to win the "War on Terror," more accurately referred to as the war on Islamic Terror. The same intelligence that referenced their WMD capabilities also overstate the quality of their civic institutions. Because of the culture of the Iraqs, the ability to sustain a middle class, and the perceived infrastructure, it was believed that it would be one of the easier place to plant some kind of democraticly inspired government- and that it would influence the region. This is in contrast to a place like Afghanistan- where the geography and culture basically make it impossible.

We've had these discussions before, you're a professional soldier, you really need to learn history. Just start with a book like DIPLOMACY and move on from there. Even if you don't agree with Kissinger's real politic, you'll learn more just from that one book than you would in college.

 

[lincolnx2]

Because it was part of a broader, idealistic foreign policy attempt to win the "War on Terror," more accurately referred to as the war on Islamic Terror. The same intelligence that referenced their WMD capabilities also overstate the quality of their civic institutions. Because of the culture of the Iraqs, the ability to sustain a middle class, and the perceived infrastructure, it was believed that it would be one of the easier place to plant some kind of democraticly inspired government- and that it would influence the region. This is in contrast to a place like Afghanistan- where the geography and culture basically make it impossible.

We've had these discussions before, you're a professional soldier, you really need to learn history. Just start with a book like DIPLOMACY and move on from there. Even if you don't agree with Kissinger's real politic, you'll learn more just from that one book than you would in college.

But we didn't help Iraq, we made it much worse!

 

[lincolnx2]

Because it was part of a broader, idealistic foreign policy attempt to win the "War on Terror," more accurately referred to as the war on Islamic Terror. The same intelligence that referenced their WMD capabilities also overstate the quality of their civic institutions. Because of the culture of the Iraqs, the ability to sustain a middle class, and the perceived infrastructure, it was believed that it would be one of the easier place to plant some kind of democraticly inspired government- and that it would influence the region. This is in contrast to a place like Afghanistan- where the geography and culture basically make it impossible.

We've had these discussions before, you're a professional soldier, you really need to learn history. Just start with a book like DIPLOMACY and move on from there. Even if you don't agree with Kissinger's real politic, you'll learn more just from that one book than you would in college.

But we didn't help Iraq, we made it much worse, I understand about democracy and all that good stuff, but ome people aren't disciplined enough to live in a free state. We rid Iraq of Saddam, now his loyalist are uprising, and Al-Sadr is more powerful and sadistic than Saddam ever was. There is more to Iraq than what the media is reporting.

 

[Calabrio]

But we didn't help Iraq, we made it much worse

That's a very general statement and difficult to respond to.
Certain things have gotten worse- it's less stable. But other things have improved, and they will likely continue to improve.

As mentioned, not only the did intelligence and state OVER estimate the condition of their weapon programs, they vastly over estimated the conditions of the Iraq infrastructure. They did not anticipate the country being as broken down and dysfunctional as it was.

I understand about democracy and all that good stuff,

Perhaps, but that's not really the issue here.
It's not just about political theory-
but about theories associated with foreign policy. Idealism, realism... and how it's applied through out history. In your industry, I personally would think you'd have a great motivation to want to under the "WHYs"

but some people aren't disciplined enough to live in a free state.

Absolutely true. I'd say that about an increasing number of Americans and Europeans. Representative democracies are a huge responsibility.

We rid Iraq of Saddam, now his loyalist are uprising, and Al-Sadr is more powerful and sadistic than Saddam ever was. There is more to Iraq than what the media is reporting.

I'm well aware of that.
And there were big mistakes made by the U.S. government prior to the invasion. Mistakes that are often the result of undermining the intelligence community as was done through the 90s....... and something that we are doing again right now.

But Iraq is different from Afghanistan.
Nation building in either country might be wrong, but it has potential and there's strategic value in it's success in Iraq. The Afghans still crap next to where they eat.

 

[lincolnx2]

That's a very general statement and difficult to respond to.
Certain things have gotten worse- it's less stable. But other things have improved, and they will likely continue to improve .

For every improvement you name, I can name 5 things we made worse.

As mentioned, not only the did intelligence and state OVER estimate the condition of their weapon programs, they vastly over estimated the conditions of the Iraq infrastructure. They did not anticipate the country being as broken down and dysfunctional as it was.

You say "over estimate" I say LIE, it wasn't all Bush, it was his intelligence, I just hate when he never admitted to his mistakes.


Perhaps, but that's not really the issue here.
It's not just about political theory-
but about theories associated with foreign policy. Idealism, realism... and how it's applied through out history. In your industry, I personally would think you'd have a great motivation to want to under the "WHYs"


Absolutely true. I'd say that about an increasing number of Americans and Europeans. Representative democracies are a huge responsibility.

I'm well aware of that.
And there were big mistakes made by the U.S. government prior to the invasion. Mistakes that are often the result of undermining the intelligence community as was done through the 90s....... and something that we are doing again right now.

This reminds me of a story, I dont know if its true or not, but my Uncle was in the Army, during the Gulf war (i think) and he tells me that he had his scope on Saddam's head but his higher up told him the leave. Its all politics!

But Iraq is different from Afghanistan.
Nation building in either country might be wrong, but it has potential and there's strategic value in it's success in Iraq. The Afghans still crap next to where they eat.

I agree, in Iraq, we are fighting Citizens of Iraq. In Afghanistan we are fighting the taliban.

 

[Calabrio]

For every improvement you name, I can name 5 things we made worse.

That's a statement that sounds good but it really doesn't mean anything.
It's all about how you prioritize things and how you classify and identify things. And are those 5 things permanent?

You say "over estimate" I say LIE, it wasn't all Bush, it was his intelligence, I just hate when he never admitted to his mistakes.

You say "lie," but to do so is ignorant.
No one, "lied." Decisions were made based upon bad or out dated intelligence. Some of the intelligence sources lied. But the intelligence community, the state department, and the President didn't lie.

Being wrong and lying are two completely different things. And the language distinction is very important. And I don't know of any institution that hasn't recognized their miscalculations.

This reminds me of a story, I dont know if its true or not, but my Uncle was in the Army, during the Gulf war (i think) and he tells me that he had his scope on Saddam's head but his higher up told him the leave. Its all politics!

I tend to think your Uncle was speaking figuratively and not literally, but politics is important. Not necessarily domestic, electoral politics either. It has to do with those foreign policy theories and stabilizing regions.

But I was talking about how after the perceived end of the Cold War, Bush cut back our intelligence budgets. Then during the Clinton administration, he decimated the intelligence and military budgets, he also put severe limitations of the human intelligence sources we had. The result was the critical intelligence shortages we were experiencing.

And now, this current administration is undermining the intelligence community again.

I agree, in Iraq, we are fighting Citizens of Iraq.

And Iran.

In Afghanistan we are fighting the taliban.

And they poop in their food.

 

[Frogman]

I'm surprised how easily the left forgets about terrorist attacks against the US and it's interests under Former President Clinton's watchful eye ... Granted, not all were Muslim influenced, but IIRC under President Bush, we had one attack on us. Just because it was in our back yard, it does not make the other attacks null and void. Major, yes. But... only one.

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

 

[fossten]

For every improvement you name, I can name 5 things we made worse.

You say "over estimate" I say LIE, it wasn't all Bush, it was his intelligence, I just hate when he never admitted to his mistakes.


Perhaps, but that's not really the issue here.
It's not just about political theory-
but about theories associated with foreign policy. Idealism, realism... and how it's applied through out history. In your industry, I personally would think you'd have a great motivation to want to under the "WHYs"


Absolutely true. I'd say that about an increasing number of Americans and Europeans. Representative democracies are a huge responsibility.




This reminds me of a story, I dont know if its true or not, but my Uncle was in the Army, during the Gulf war (i think) and he tells me that he had his scope on Saddam's head but his higher up told him the leave. Its all politics!
I agree, in Iraq, we are fighting Citizens of Iraq. In Afghanistan we are fighting the taliban.

You sure whine a lot. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem?" The job in Iraq is tough enough without nattering nabobs of negativity like you constantly gumming up the works with your bitching and moaning.

 

[lincolnx2]

You sure whine a lot. Haven't you ever heard the saying, "If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem?" The job in Iraq is tough enough without nattering nabobs of negativity like you constantly gumming up the works with your bitching and moaning.

I can "whine" I actually did something about the situation, You on the other hand? O' Yeah the 100 hour war. Great Job!

 

[fossten]

I can "whine" I actually did something about the situation, You on the other hand? O' Yeah the 100 hour war. Great Job!

???????

Speak English.

 

[shagdrum]

What are you, 4 years old? Seriously. This childish game of yours doesn't even deserve a reply. But nonetheless........



Not only did the BuSh administration use tortue in a failed attempt to establish a connection between Saddam and 9/11, they also went to great lengths to muffle and discredit those who provided proof to the contrary........

Leave it to you to mischaracterize to make your point. Bush and Co. only ever claimed that Iraq (and specifically Saddam) had ties to terrorist organizations including Al Queda. That is entirely different then claiming Iraq was in some way responsible for 9/11. You are intentionally distorting what was being said. Again.

FYI; your info of torture being used to justify the invasion of Iraq; it is all hearsay. Unfortunately, with most of these crazy leftist 9/11 claims, that is all they have to go on...

Also nice to see when you respond to someone who has not addressed you in that thread, your first instinct is to belittle them via speculation that they are a 4 years old. You seem real interested in an honest, civil discussion. Are you going to inform me that I am "owned" next?

Something you always seem to ignore; condescension does not prove your point and does not mask ignorance, foolishness or dishonesty.

 

[fossten]

Hey Johnny, did you hear that 9/11 was an inside job?

 

[taylor414ce2003]

there are thousands who believe it was an inside job!! this link should help set them straight
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

 

[lincolnx2]

???????

Speak English.

Deploy, then you may comprehend! I am not about to go back and forth with you, I have done more in 13 months than you did your entire enlistment. People always group you, Cal and Shag together, but they are wrong to do so, I actually learn stuff from Cal and Shag, you just take shots at people. Whats up with that? Do you wish you had stayed in the military, are you upset because you can't retire at 20 years? benefits may be in trouble? no job security, if so all you have to do is ask me to put you in the Army, my numbers have been low anyway.

Being that you don't know what the 100 hour war is, I would like to see your DD214, do you know what the is?

 

[fossten]

Deploy, then you may comprehend! I am not about to go back and forth with you, I have done more in 13 months than you did your entire enlistment. People always group you, Cal and Shag together, but they are wrong to do so, I actually learn stuff from Cal and Shag, you just take shots at people. Whats up with that? Do you wish you had stayed in the military, are you upset because you can't retire at 20 years? benefits may be in trouble? no job security, if so all you have to do is ask me to put you in the Army, my numbers have been low anyway.

Being that you don't know what the 100 hour war is, I would like to see your DD214, do you know what the is?

204th MI Battalion (tactical), deployed to Desert Storm in 1991. Sorry you were too dumb to qualify for MI.

As far as my current situation, I'm doing just fine. I'm driving my Lincoln, my wife drives a Lexus and has a new diamond setting on her finger, and we have no debt. We're about to build a log home and just made an offer on a piece of property out in the country. So go pound sand.

If you're such a successful recruiter, you'd think you wouldn't whine so much. You're a disgrace to the patch you wear.

 

[lincolnx2]

I have done more one deployment, than you did in you entire enlistment! You are the sole reason why they say Military Intelligence is a contradiction

 

[Calabrio]

I have done more one deployment, than you did in you entire enlistment! You are the sole reason why they say Military Intelligence is a contradiction

Do you have a point?
I know guys who have careers in military intelligence, are extremely important to the mission and respected, who haven't been deployed overseas. A mix of good fortune and the fact they are needed to perform critical roles here.

So is that service any less noble than what you were required to do?

Stop with the pissing contest, it really reflects poorly on you.