Ported TB question

yeah ive been wondering about this, and also porting the heads... how much of an improvement would it be?
 
A good port on the tb is worth some horsepower. However, it may not be enough to feel. Next, if you don't have a flow bench and the proper skills to experiment with this "voo doo", you can actually hurt performance. We have found some hp on our Cobras with a proper port...but I only know of one company who is successful doing that and who has the ability to do the exhaustive testing necessary to know just what to remove and where. Personally, unless I can see results from back to back dyno runs along with flow bench data to support the port, I would be very hesitant to pay money for this. It could be "snake oil."
 
well - it's hard to really tell if they ported the actual TB - if they did - they would have had to create a new throttle plate - it looks like what they really did was used a grinder to flaten the edge of the throttle plate.

- the only issue you have when someone does a port job - they mess up the smooth action of the throttle or they mess up the air gap between the plate and inside tunnel - which makes your idle angry because it cannot create a proper vacuum.

- the only issues you have with a larger tb is that it could change you tip in and tip out response - meaning how the car adjusts fuel when you open/close the throttle - if you go too extreme the car cannot keep up with sudden throttle movement and it stumbles. I am running a 85mm tb and I still have some work on smoothing out the tip in and tip out.

the slight port this appears to be means it should nothave this problem - and may not have much benefit either.
 
I can't see where they have made much if any difference. You would expect to see the leading edge of the t/b on the upstream end to be radiused to smooth the airflow, and it still appears to be squared off perpendicular to the air flow, and unless, like Quick said, that's a bigger throttle plate there can't be any increase in volume. Not any real need for a flow a flow-bench either, for the t/b port as there's nothing to really balance, for p& p on the heads, it would be much more useful.

Porting the heads should give at least a 10% boost in hp. Next to Quick's s/c or a turbo probably the next best way to get a good ammount of hp in one shot. If you don't do it yourself I'd expect to pay $2k or more for a good p&p including the removal, breakdown, rebuild and re-installation of the heads. If you've got the tools and time you could do it yourself for the cost of a new set of gaskets. http://www.sa-motorsports.com/portdiy/diyport.pdf If you can remove the heads and strip out the valves yourself Extrude Hone http://www.gethoned.com/parts.php?get_price=yourparts&show=automotive could do about the best port and polish job for just over $1k plus shipping costs.
 
Is there a benefit to porting heads if you stay with the stock cams?
 
There definetly would be....Are there even any aftermarket cams for this car...I haven't seen any at all...

I am still trying to find a shop to adapt a 8.8" Ford IRS Carrier with 3.73's in it......:mad:
 
402777LS said:
I can't see where they have made much if any difference. You would expect to see the leading edge of the t/b on the upstream end to be radiused to smooth the airflow, and it still appears to be squared off perpendicular to the air flow, and unless, like Quick said, that's a bigger throttle plate there can't be any increase in volume. Not any real need for a flow a flow-bench either, for the t/b port as there's nothing to really balance, for p& p on the heads, it would be much more useful.

Porting the heads should give at least a 10% boost in hp. Next to Quick's s/c or a turbo probably the next best way to get a good ammount of hp in one shot. If you don't do it yourself I'd expect to pay $2k or more for a good p&p including the removal, breakdown, rebuild and re-installation of the heads. If you've got the tools and time you could do it yourself for the cost of a new set of gaskets. http://www.sa-motorsports.com/portdiy/diyport.pdf If you can remove the heads and strip out the valves yourself Extrude Hone http://www.gethoned.com/parts.php?get_price=yourparts&show=automotive could do about the best port and polish job for just over $1k plus shipping costs.

Volume (mass) isn't the only thing you look for in a port job. Things such as velocity and the quality of the airflow are just as important...and probably more so on a street car. (lately, tumbling of the air flow is netting very good results) Just looking at something is a very poor way to judge a port job. That's why you use a flow bench...so you can measure your work and see your results. I can show you some very pretty port jobs that are absolutely worthless on a car. Removing metal in the wrong spot makes parts useless. For example, playing with the short side radius of a port may look nice, but in actuality, ruins the port in most applications. Most porters for street heads spend the majority of their time in the first inch of the port below the valve. Huge gains can be made there.

Extrude honing can be nice...but does nothing more than smooth out an existing port design. That's not a true port job. But some gains can be had that way.

You should never attempt a "home" port job unless you know what you're doing. As I mentioned, remove metal in the wrong spot and you've just made junk. You will hurt power. You also want to make the ports work in the rpm and valve lift of the engine you are running them on. It makes no sense to build a set of heads that are real screamers at 7000+ rpm and work best at valve lifts over .600" since you're engine will never see that. Remember, you can port a head to move a ton of air...but if it slows velocity at low rpm and low valve lifts, you have just built yourself a slug on the street from the loss of low end torque.

But hey...I only NHRA raced for 20 years and set four National Records...and built engines for four more record holders...so what do I know???
 
DMcBrideBoston said:
There definetly would be....Are there even any aftermarket cams for this car...I haven't seen any at all...

I am still trying to find a shop to adapt a 8.8" Ford IRS Carrier with 3.73's in it......:mad:

Not necessarily. Cams matched to your heads, compression, etc could be huge when you get a proper port. If the existing cams don't support the new port design you created, all your port work is worthless. It depends on what you do with the port. I would say some minor work under the valve along with the back of the valve could see some nice improvement with the stock cams. But without actually seeing the heads, I'm just guessing.

If you find anyone who can play with the IRS and make the 8.8 work in the LS, please let us know! That would be nice! And I have two of the Cobra IRS's sitting in my shop!
 
2001LS8Sport said:
It makes no sense to build a set of heads that are real screamers at 7000+ rpm and work best at valve lifts over .600" since you're engine will never see that. Remember, you can port a head to move a ton of air...but if it slows velocity at low rpm and low valve lifts, you have just built yourself a slug on the street from the loss of low end torque.


Sounds like the problem FORD had with the 351 Cleveland. Monster on the track but got its butt whooped at stop light racing.
 
You seem to have the experience to answer some questions I've had about porting:
2001LS8Sport said:
Volume (mass) isn't the only thing you look for in a port job. Things such as velocity and the quality of the airflow are just as important...and probably more so on a street car. (lately, tumbling of the air flow is netting very good results) Is tumbling equally benificial for both traditional carburated and F/ I engines?

Just looking at something is a very poor way to judge a port job.

I was trying to say here that enlarging the throat was not aparent, it would take some very precise machining to get a t/plate to perfectly match the new throat diameter as it looks here, that's why I believed it was the stock plate. and radiusing definately has a benefit- it helps compress the air flowing through the tube, although not radicaly it has the same effect as slightly lowering the air temp.

That's why you use a flow bench...so you can measure your work and see your results. Sure a flow bench will give you the differences in air flow through the ported t/b, but my point was it's use in that situation wasn't going to change the results, however, using it on the heads to balance the flow through the ports is extremely useful in getting the most out of a porting job.

I can show you some very pretty port jobs that are absolutely worthless on a car. Removing metal in the wrong spot makes parts useless. For example, playing with the short side radius of a port may look nice, but in actuality, ruins the port in most applications. I agree that removing metal in the wrong places can do more harm than good, but the reason for radiusing the port opening to the gasket edges is again to compress the airflow, not just increase it. Also if the corresponding intake manifold is not matched to the head port, in some cases there will be no gain and possibly a loss of HP.

Most porters for street heads spend the majority of their time in the first inch of the port below the valve. Huge gains can be made there. That's because that's where the most inhibitions to the airflow are found, just smoothing the radius on corners here where they make the most radical bends greatly increases airflow more dramaticaly than anywhere else in the head.( this is also where Extrude Hone is the most effective, where it's most difficult to reach with hand porting tools).

Extrude honing can be nice...but does nothing more than smooth out an existing port design. That's not a true port job. But some gains can be had that way. Extrude Hone will do more than just smoothing out the port, they'll also do a gasket match hand port job, and I'd rather have someone who spends all his days just grinding ports working on my heads than someone in the local speed shop who knows how to do it but has far less experience.

You should never attempt a "home" port job unless you know what you're doing. As I mentioned, remove metal in the wrong spot and you've just made junk. You will hurt power. You also want to make the ports work in the rpm and valve lift of the engine you are running them on. It makes no sense to build a set of heads that are real screamers at 7000+ rpm and work best at valve lifts over .600" since you're engine will never see that. Remember, you can port a head to move a ton of air...but if it slows velocity at low rpm and low valve lifts, you have just built yourself a slug on the street from the loss of low end torque. No argument here-- If you're not watching what your'e doing and leave any of the job done half a**d, you'll pay the price. You need to be criticaly aware of the thickness of the port walls or you'll be creating coolant leaks that will junk the whole engine. Is velocity as important on a F/ I engine as it is on a carburated one? I don't know about the V8 on the LS, but on the V6 there is an electricaly controlled valve in the intake manifold that decreases airflow at lower RPM's to increase velocity. I would think that adjusting it's function through the pcm would help with problems here.

But hey...I only NHRA raced for 20 years and set four National Records...and built engines for four more record holders...so what do I know???

No question those credential speak volumes, Feeel free to jump in any time and give us the benefit of them, I know I often spit things out trying to help with what knowledge I have, and sometimes it's just coming to conclusions with less experience than others on the board. I'm always thankful to have my assumptions corrected - it's that old ready, shoot, aim problem I have.:eek: :eek: Thanks.
 

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