eL eS
Dedicated LVC Member
dropped74 said:
good point.
Opinion on 2005 Mustang
- Thread starter KD00LS
- Start date
good point.
302's cheap to build? I also had an est. $10,000 motor in my 91 notch, hence not cheap to build...
Let's just saying to hit 12's in the 1/4.
W/ the LS1 you have more cubes and are starting out w/ over 300 hp/tq, so right off the bat you are ahead of a 5.0 owner... Heck, we already know, on a 1998 + Z28 or TA you can add a steep gear, pullies, catback and stickies, and then you are there in the 12's... For us 5.0 guys we have to crack open the motor or add a power adder to reach those times. Unless you are building a replica Factory Stock class 5.0, you are not hitting 12's w/ bolt ons and even those guys add GT40 components and/or seriously work over the stock heads/intake (cracked open the motor).
However, in MMFF, it appears they got a 05 GT in the 12's with a computer tune, magnaflow mufflers, MT drag radials, 4.30 gear, QA1 shocks and pullies. No power adder and no cracking open the motor... which is nice...
Let's just saying to hit 12's in the 1/4.
W/ the LS1 you have more cubes and are starting out w/ over 300 hp/tq, so right off the bat you are ahead of a 5.0 owner... Heck, we already know, on a 1998 + Z28 or TA you can add a steep gear, pullies, catback and stickies, and then you are there in the 12's... For us 5.0 guys we have to crack open the motor or add a power adder to reach those times. Unless you are building a replica Factory Stock class 5.0, you are not hitting 12's w/ bolt ons and even those guys add GT40 components and/or seriously work over the stock heads/intake (cracked open the motor).
However, in MMFF, it appears they got a 05 GT in the 12's with a computer tune, magnaflow mufflers, MT drag radials, 4.30 gear, QA1 shocks and pullies. No power adder and no cracking open the motor... which is nice...
blk04lse said:
You need to do some research, or shop around. Hell, I am asking $10,000 for my entire car and other people have hit high 11's with my exact combo and I get about 20 mpg which is better than I am getting in my LS.
You can overpay for anything. If you can find a 302 for $10000 you can find a 350 for the same, somewhere.
I apologize to the person who started the thread.
$10,000 on a 302 motor is very common, but it depends on what the car is used for and what class the car runs in...
DSS short block: $1500 + for a basic short block that the regular Joe buys, but we use a Dart block and extra light internals which is just over $6000, not including windage tray, 7 qt oil pan, high flow oil pump and pickup
Trick Flow TW heads: plus a stage 2 port job, and upgrade valve train to spin the motor beyond 7000 rpms w/out floating the valves - $3500
Holley intake w/ matching port job to the heads - just over $750
Custom cam - $350
hydraulic lifters, push rods, Comp rockers - just over $500
We are just over $10,000 and have not addressed the power pipe, Pro M, throttle body, egr plate, additional pumps, timing chain, distributor, ignition, Felpro gaskets, ARP bolts and all of the other nickel/diming that it takes to put it together.
DSS short block: $1500 + for a basic short block that the regular Joe buys, but we use a Dart block and extra light internals which is just over $6000, not including windage tray, 7 qt oil pan, high flow oil pump and pickup
Trick Flow TW heads: plus a stage 2 port job, and upgrade valve train to spin the motor beyond 7000 rpms w/out floating the valves - $3500
Holley intake w/ matching port job to the heads - just over $750
Custom cam - $350
hydraulic lifters, push rods, Comp rockers - just over $500
We are just over $10,000 and have not addressed the power pipe, Pro M, throttle body, egr plate, additional pumps, timing chain, distributor, ignition, Felpro gaskets, ARP bolts and all of the other nickel/diming that it takes to put it together.
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
KD00LS said:
I know this is a VERY old thread...but I couldn't help myself.
F body is a great car Kdools...but I know of SEVERAL 03/04 Cobras that will gladly hand a s/c LS1 or 6 it's ass. All day long...any day. I know of several that will hand a modded Z06 it's ass. Stock for stock, they handle the standard C5 Corvette. Bang for the buck? You can't touch the Cobra. Period. And want performance per dollar with mods? The GM cars REALLY lose! It's so easy to get 500 rwhp out of these cars...with several running 600 rwhp. And these cars are totally streetable with impeccable manners.
Then again, I guess if you want a new car, it might be a little tough to get a new Camaro or Firebird, huh! They sold so well that GM quit making them!!
:Beer
ohioLS
Dedicated LVC Member
All I am saying is that I would love to own the new 06 Ford Mustang GT 500 when they are availble. Oh Daddy would have to save some pennies but man o man that ride looks sweet.
-Scott-
-Scott-
Motts
Dedicated LVC Member
ever heard the mustangs are like tampons?? joke
Horsepower TV blew up their LS1 Z28/TA or whatever. Watching them pull that engine (car from engine) was painful. How do you work on one of those with a regular garage? Same with the LS. How am I supposed to get this engine out? At least the last Mustang mishap they had was because it was stolen. 
They blew it up? I thought they pulled it to do work because it needed to be pulled for it? Huh, I must of been watching the wrong show, I hate when that happens.
Or did they blow it at the end and have to re-pull it?
Or did they blow it at the end and have to re-pull it?
R
rocket5979
Guest
2001LS8Sport said:
I am sooo glad you brought this old thread up! Anyone who thinks that a supercharged LS1 Camaro will beat an 03-04 Cobra is smoking something. NONE of them are stock! The most boost you can run safely on a stock LS1 motor will be 6-8 lbs. The Cobra can easily handle over 20+ psi boost on a Kenne Bell. For a little more money than it takes to get the supercharger for the SS to just barely beat a pullied/chipped 03-04 Cobra, you can drop a KB on there and rip the other LS1 fellas paint off with the suction off the ass-end of the Cobra! KDOOLS, sorry dude but you dont seem to know your stuff when it comes to performance and vehicles. Now an LS1 with a decent shot of nitrous is something for a non-KB'ed Cobra to worry about. Chevy 350 is a great motor no doubt, but every brand has their easy power/cheaply modded engines. If anything besides a modular engine is getting dropped into mustangs, it is usually a fully built 302 or a 351 possibly stroked to 393 to make some really big power after throwing an F-1A or YS-trim on with a cog drive making 26 lbs boost. Most of us serious Ford fellas are sticking with modular and just going with fully forged internals and running a heck of alot of twinscrew boost on them to make up for, and surpass, other engines with more displacement. Sorry if any of my words run together, my spacebar is kinda broken.
Beamer said:
They heard some noises, which the Chevy guy thought was top end. Nope...spun a rod bearing. Probably from the new guy beating the crap out of it.
They rebuilt it and now they threw nitrous on it. Power increase from the nitrous wasn't too impressive either, IMO. Also, all the mods they did originally wasn't impressive. If I didn't know of some local guys who have modded their LS1s and are getting good numbers, I would swear the engine wouldn't be worth touching! Of course, when they did up that '03 Cobra without getting dirty, it is hard to be impressed with anything else.Oh ok, I only watched it till they put the engine back in for a dyno run. I used to love that show but now I cannot stand it, only thing I watch on the powerblock is car and driver(if they are doing something good) and maybe Trucks.
I'm not knocking on Cobras or anything, I'd take one. Lower the compression on a LS1 and you could run the same boost as a modded Cobra with Kenne Bell. And with the ***346 c.i.*** motor, against a 281, running the same boost, I'd love to see the outcome of that race. Right out of the factory without major changes, of course a cobra would have more potential, its s/c'd. Change the heads etc. and s/c the lower compression LS1, and in the long run theres only one thing that'll make the difference. Displacement.
There is no replacement for displacement.
There is no replacement for displacement.
R
rocket5979
Guest
KD00LS said:
I am a V-8 guy through and through, but there is damn close replacement for displacement. It is called boost. By the time a person fully rebuilt the bottom end of an LS1 with low compression internals the Cobra owner could have gotten a single turbo system fabbed up and between that and meth injection be making well over 1,000 rwhp. We could go on and on about this cat and mouse mod discussion, but bottom line is that Modern day Ford smaller displacement V-8's are one heck of alot more efficient ci for ci compared to the Chevy pushrod series of engines. A less than 50 horsepower difference from more than a liter in displacement difference is quite a feat! Dont even get me started on the LS engine! It must be bothersome to have an engine with less displacement than most V6's putting out a whopping 73 hp per liter of displacement while the LS1 Camaro only puts out 57 hp per liter of displacement. Bottom line is that while the LS1 350 engines have more displacement, they are nowhere near as efficient at making power as the Ford modular line of engines. Even the LS6 engines in the older Z06 Corvette's only have a 71 hp per liter efficiency! Why does Ford need to even bother to up their displacement, they are staying with the competition in N/A form interms of efficiency and blowing them away in boosted form! No reason to go bigger. The LS1 and LS6 engines along with some older Ford pushrod engines are purely out of date designs. Chevy isnt offering anything to up the ante, all they are doing is merely increasing the displacement every few years. Your comment about Chevy motors having more potential than Ford motors is just purely assinine. Ford had a competitor with the Chevy 350, in the 351, but then Ford got smart and decided to offer more efficient motors through a better design. It may be hard to offer a replacement for displacement, but The Chevy Pushrod engine design should been replaced for good in 2002.
Alright, before I get any more words put in my mouth.
Bigger Displacement + Boost > Smaller Displacement + Boost
LS1 is one of the best motors out there, go on ls1tech.com and argue there.
BTW comparing Horsepower per liter is what someone who owns an S2000 would do. Yea its got more HP/L but it's still a smaller motor.
Bigger Displacement + Boost > Smaller Displacement + Boost
LS1 is one of the best motors out there, go on ls1tech.com and argue there.
BTW comparing Horsepower per liter is what someone who owns an S2000 would do. Yea its got more HP/L but it's still a smaller motor.
JohnnyBz00LS
Dedicated LVC Member
:bsflag:
The only way that Ford could make a 'stang faster than a f-bod was to wait until GM stopped making them. (5.0L vs IROCs are the ONLY exception here.)
The only way that Ford can make ANYTHING fast is to blow them.
Don't try to compare hp/ci numbers between a boosted and N/A motor, that's :bsflag: and downright ricer-ish.
GM's Gen-III PUSHROD V8 packs MORE HP into a smaller, lighter package than any Ford mod-motor. Don't blame GM for Ford's wasting all that space and metal to hold all those cams.
"Efficiency"?? How many mod-motor 'stangs can pull down 30+MPG on the highway doing 85MPH? Do the V6 'stangs even do that well???
There are 10-sec LS1 Camaros running ONLY a cam-swap in the motor, un-modded factory heads, N/A (no boost or juice). Try THAT in a mod motor. And BTW, LS1 cam swaps are a breeze, don't even have to remove the intake.
I'll give the '03-'04 Cobras some credit, Ford FINALLY caught up w/ GM in the bang-for-buck category (barely). But Colletti had to resort to a blow-job to do it.
LS1s cant take boost? LOL, you are clueless dude. LPE has been wringing 700+ reliable, streetable HP from them for years. Cheap? No. Cakewalk? YES.
:soapbox:
The only way that Ford could make a 'stang faster than a f-bod was to wait until GM stopped making them. (5.0L vs IROCs are the ONLY exception here.)
The only way that Ford can make ANYTHING fast is to blow them.
Don't try to compare hp/ci numbers between a boosted and N/A motor, that's :bsflag: and downright ricer-ish.
GM's Gen-III PUSHROD V8 packs MORE HP into a smaller, lighter package than any Ford mod-motor. Don't blame GM for Ford's wasting all that space and metal to hold all those cams.
"Efficiency"?? How many mod-motor 'stangs can pull down 30+MPG on the highway doing 85MPH? Do the V6 'stangs even do that well???
There are 10-sec LS1 Camaros running ONLY a cam-swap in the motor, un-modded factory heads, N/A (no boost or juice). Try THAT in a mod motor. And BTW, LS1 cam swaps are a breeze, don't even have to remove the intake.
I'll give the '03-'04 Cobras some credit, Ford FINALLY caught up w/ GM in the bang-for-buck category (barely). But Colletti had to resort to a blow-job to do it.
LS1s cant take boost? LOL, you are clueless dude. LPE has been wringing 700+ reliable, streetable HP from them for years. Cheap? No. Cakewalk? YES.
:soapbox:
lsbit said:
Cool? Depends if you're a 9 year old drooling over Ferrari's and Lambo's.
They use fox bodies because of the weight. And for fiberglass bodies they use 99-04 stangs due to slightly better aerodynamics.
Actually less than 5 minutes. It's funny how nothing about the things I said about aerodynamics or weight was said. Yes you're right, being cool = lower E.T.'s.
Throw some of those played out Bullit wheels (14 second bullet?) and :eek2:
watch those E.T.'s drop.
Throw some of those played out Bullit wheels (14 second bullet?) and :eek2:
watch those E.T.'s drop.
JohnnyBz00LS
Dedicated LVC Member
KD00LS said:
LOL. :Beer
Seriously though, I really like the styling of the '05 Stangs, this is the FIRST 'stang since the '69-'70 model that I'd ever consider owning. It's about time Ford put a "Bullit" in the head of that Fairmont-based pony. Considering that the '05s are built on the LS platform indicates that many of the flaws w/ the previous 'stangs are history (finally). I'm really looking forward to the GT500, I might have to get one of those.
While I'll give a little credit to the new 3V 4.6L, I can't help but chuckle at the fact that it took Ford nearly 10 years to finally get some streetable torque out of it w/o a blower. Fact is, Ford hasn't had a market-dominating hot-rod V8 since the flat-head. And GM's gen-III and IV V8s and Chrysler's HEMIs ensure that it's going to be a long time before they do.
Who cares how many cams or cubes is under the hood? I just want to feel a kick in the pants when I plant my right foot. And pushrods DELIVER!
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
There is no doubt that the LS1/6 motors are very good. But Ford and Chevy went different routes to entice their buyers. GM went with displacement while Ford went with forced induction and smaller displacement. Both ways work well. But let's face the music boys....the public wasn't impressed with the GM way...hence the downfall of the F body and the very poor selling GTO. But there are some seriously quick F bodies out there...and some that will stay with even the best modded Cobra. But by the time you get there, the F body has poor street manners where the Cobra doesn't...and you've put more money into the GM.
And remember this...there isn't an F body ever built (production) that compared to the Terminator. Most of the Cobras were well into the 12's right off the show room floor. No F body was ever found that quick. That's stock for stock. Now, later Z06's are a different story. I don't want anything to do with one of those when I'm in my Cobra. They are serious cars. And the new Z06 is 427 ci and 500 hp. Incredible. But then again it's going to be 30K more than the new GT500...so it should be an incredible car. I know one thing...the vette boys are nervous about the new GT500 and they are admitting that if the new car comes out as advertised (450 to 500 hp for 40K) they are going to lose some of their own to it.
30 mpg?? Get real... the only way an F body gets 30 mpg is once...out of a B29. They are good at mileage...better than Ford actually. But 30 mpg ain't gonna happen on a regular basis. I got 27 out of my Cobra once coming from Flagstaff to Phoenix. Let's see 7000 feet to 1000 feet. That would do it! But normally, I'm lucky to get 25 out of mine...and that's driving it very conservatively. No way an F body is 5 mpg better...and there is no way you could convince me without an actual certified test over time.
I love these arguments! This is what keeps the rivalry alive and well!!! Don't you GM boys wish you had a car to brag about?? Oh yea...you still got the GTO...for a while at least. But it's selling so well that it's about gone too. And I'm tired of hearing about comparing vettes to Mustangs and Cobras. If you want to do that, I'll bring the GT into the picture. Sure it's more money than a vette...but the vette is more than a Mustang!
It just goes on and on....and I love it!!!
And remember this...there isn't an F body ever built (production) that compared to the Terminator. Most of the Cobras were well into the 12's right off the show room floor. No F body was ever found that quick. That's stock for stock. Now, later Z06's are a different story. I don't want anything to do with one of those when I'm in my Cobra. They are serious cars. And the new Z06 is 427 ci and 500 hp. Incredible. But then again it's going to be 30K more than the new GT500...so it should be an incredible car. I know one thing...the vette boys are nervous about the new GT500 and they are admitting that if the new car comes out as advertised (450 to 500 hp for 40K) they are going to lose some of their own to it.
30 mpg?? Get real... the only way an F body gets 30 mpg is once...out of a B29. They are good at mileage...better than Ford actually. But 30 mpg ain't gonna happen on a regular basis. I got 27 out of my Cobra once coming from Flagstaff to Phoenix. Let's see 7000 feet to 1000 feet. That would do it! But normally, I'm lucky to get 25 out of mine...and that's driving it very conservatively. No way an F body is 5 mpg better...and there is no way you could convince me without an actual certified test over time.
I love these arguments! This is what keeps the rivalry alive and well!!! Don't you GM boys wish you had a car to brag about?? Oh yea...you still got the GTO...for a while at least. But it's selling so well that it's about gone too. And I'm tired of hearing about comparing vettes to Mustangs and Cobras. If you want to do that, I'll bring the GT into the picture. Sure it's more money than a vette...but the vette is more than a Mustang!
It just goes on and on....and I love it!!!
R
rocket5979
Guest
JohnnyBz00LS said:
The only reason I compared hp/ci is because that fella was talking about potential.
Yes more displacement plus boost will be better than smaller displacement with boost. That one is a gimme.
One thing you said about the whole 700+ hp is crap if your talking of them lasting long on the stock bottom end. I have frequented and still do, LS1.com and LS2.com. Unless they were running a turbo, it is very unadviseable to go above 8-9 psi on the stock bottm end with the LS1 engines. You can build any engine to handle 700 hp. Some may take more money, but they still get there. The 700+ hp figure is totally nill in this case because that is assuming a forged bottom end. Your statement about Coletti having to resort to blowing the Cobra is quite bold too. Yes, in this case they did to keep costs down. People always go back to the whole. WELL ITS BLOWN talk. WELL YOU ALL HAVE ONE MORE LITER THAN US!!! But I suppose that doesnt count, now does it? Give me a break! Bottom line is that the Camaro is discontinued till whenever... The Cobra beats them in stock configuration, and modded the Cobra will eat an LS1 up and spit it out. Ford did mess up when they werent stepping up to the plate in the past in terms of power. They learned their lesson and have been making up for it with a supercharger. You say we cheat with a supercharger and we say you cheat with more displacement. In the end it is not even debatable and cancel each other out in a way. Given the proper driver, a mildly modded 05 GT can run with and beat an LS1 Camaro (drivers race). Either way it is apparent that they are close enough to come down to the drivers. As for the last generation of cobra's produced? Well there is no comparison. Lets see the STOCK BOTTOM END of that LS1 handle 700+ rwhp. I dont think so! Compression is too high to be able to safely handle the amount of boost it would take to get you there. You would be breaking parts left and right. Some cobra's have had some problems at those power levels too, I will admit that, but not as much as what an LS1 would be having. You call me a ricer and I call it, "setting things in a better perspective". If you want to go the cheapest route arguement then I will drop the name of the late 80's fox body mustang that had factory forged pistons and were light as heck! Not only are they cheap to mod they are really light too! Have tons of parts available for them and are still smaller displacement with as much stock mod potential dollar for dollar. Camaro's arent no bitches, as are the Vette's, but dont knock what Ford can do and has done. Saying the Chevy 350 motor is the best, cheapest, easiest to mod is just plain speculation. It is the best engine Chevy may have produced in later years, but Ford has still produced engines that competed very well with them. Bottom line is that you come off looking purely brand loyal when you say the LS1 rules all and nothing else can touch it.