Meth Injection or E85

[Don Pfau]

I was going to add Meth injection to my Mark. But after reading a couple post I was wondering if converting it to E85 would be better choice in the long run ??????? Or to much to bother ??????

 

[LaserSVT]

Do an intercooler first. Both things you want would be there to help eliminate issues from heat. The intercooler can do that too only better and does not need to be refilled or purchased at special places when being refilled.
Sure initial out lay would be more but in the long run you are better off.

With a meth system your blower still makes the IAT a good 50* hotter when the meth isn't being sprayed and can get 90* hotter when stuck in traffic. The meth will only cool under boost.
An intercooler on the other hand will keep the IAT close to ambient all the time which will allow you to get more power cause you can lean it out some more and add a whole bunch more timing.

 

[MediumD]

Depends on how widely available E85 is in your area. I was strongly considering running E85, but I'll probably already be coming close to the limit of my 80# injectors on gasoline and there are only 2 stations that sell E85 in this city... so for me, meth it is.

 

[Frogman]

Do an intercooler first. Both things you want would be there to help eliminate issues from heat. The intercooler can do that too only better and does not need to be refilled or purchased at special places when being refilled.

Sorry, Laser... No "special" place needed to purchase or refill water methanol tanks. 5 Gallons of methanol is relatively cheap. Once you find a good water/meth ratio, you can refill it in your garage.

I do agree with getting both an IC and water/meth, however. Better yet, if your wallet allows, get an Air to water intercooler with a proper heat exchanger on a separate cooling circuit. Much more efficient than Air to Air.

With a meth system your blower still makes the IAT a good 50* hotter when the meth isn't being sprayed and can get 90* hotter when stuck in traffic.

And with an IC you're still looking at higher temps than ambient. It's the nature of the beast. Show me an intercooler that keeps IAT's around ambient. Post boost, of course, where it matters.

And of course IAT's will be higher without meth running. I mean.. duh!

But then again, 90* higher when stuck in traffic? I very rarely see boost when I'm stuck in traffic. It has something to do with moving slowly, which doesn't require a lot of engine power to accomplish, let alone a need for boost pressures high enough to heat those IAT's that much.

The meth will only cool under boost.

Sorry. No. Meth will cool any time you have it running. Depending on the controller, it can either be boost referenced, injector referenced, or (ideally) both. Furthermore, properly tuned water/meth systems have been known to drop IAT's BELOW ambient.

I'm a big fan of the Aquamist HFS-6. Boost and IDC referenced. Can we say 10* over ambient at 24psi of boost? Instantly?

An intercooler won't cool jack under boost if there is no air going over it. Now, you could run a fan on that IC, sure. But even that won't be enough to keep IAT's as low as when there is a 60+MPH airflow going over it.

Now, with water/meth, your IAT's are instantly cooled as soon as you take off and before build boost, for two reasons:

1. The charged air gets cooled right before the intake or in the intake, depending on where you install the injectors

2. There is no lag between the hot IAT's as you start moving under boost (hard acceleration from stop for example) and the cooler IAT's once you're going over say, 40MPH. Remember, an IC can't cool well with no air moving over it.

An intercooler on the other hand will keep the IAT close to ambient all the time which will allow you to get more power cause you can lean it out some more and add a whole bunch more timing.

Again, intercoolers are pretty much useless at controlling IAT's when there is no airflow over the IC or heat exchanger. Water/meth can cool IATs any time the engine is running. Ever put boost to an engine when the IC didn't have airflow over it? What happened to the IAT's?

The injection route, however, cools the IAT's instantly.

In the end, I guess it all depends on the type of driving the man is doing. Id he's always moving fast enough to keep air flowing over the intercooler like say, on the highway, then an intercooler will make more sense. If he does a lot of city driving or track time, then water meth makes more sense. If he does both, then obviously, a combination of the two would be preferable.

I'm not even going to touch the E85 thing. IMHO E85 should only be the last resort, only when water/meth and Intercooler/heat exchanger options have been pushed to their limits.

Can you get more power on E85 over regular gasoline? Of course. But you're also burning a hell of a lot more E85, making price a washout between gasoline and E85 when it comes to fuel "economy".

And as it's been mentioned, if E85 is 50 miles away, is it worth driving that 5 miles to fill up?

 

[LaserSVT]

Froggy, by "special place" I was talking about E85. Its not at all gas stations yet and out here in the boonies its not anywhere. I realize you can get the meth/water at any Walmart or HEB and can get the better stuff at a drug store.

As to the cooling effect I didn't realize there was injector based setups. I only knew of MAF and boost based setups. Besides it is bad to always inject water into the system, no? Wouldn't you only want it under a high load situation to make sure the water leaves the combustion chamber after it turns to steam? Still new to all this but that was my very basic understanding.

For the high temps. When I ran my car at the drag strip I was stuck in the staging lanes forever. It was 92* outside and after 1 hour running the car with no to little movement my IATs went to 180* in the plenum after the blower. I saw 230* under full boost at half track. My point was if not intercooled and starting with a high IAT it will only get higher under boost. If I had an intercooler then it would have been a very different story..... which brings me to the next part.

I fugged up and didn't properly say what I was thinking. He has a Vortech so I thought "aftercooler" but said intercooler. Same thought with the ambient temps ability.
You see when I had my 03 Cobra I added a larger coolant tank and larger front heat exchanger. Being that its an air to water intercooler (like a Vortech Aftercooler) setup I was able to see IATs within 10* to ambient while at idle no matter how long I let it idle and temps didn't change much once under 18psi with the car moving.

I have a friend with a very nice modded Cobra that is running the cooling fan equipped heat exchanger and making over 700 rwhp at 24psi and his IATs were almost always at 100* this last summer. Granted I didn't get to read them myself but this person is not one to give into false statements or exaggerate the truth. I trust what he tells me as I have seen the fruits of his labor and know he knows what hes doing.


But yeah, when I was saying "intercooler" I was thinking water/air even though most people will just think Air/air. So for that, my bad.

 

[Frogman]

Froggy, by "special place" I was talking about E85.

Oh, I thought you were talking about that "special place" you go to when you remember what those guys did to you camping, so many years ago..... oh wait... we're not supposed to talk about that. :lol:

But I understand what you meant.

Its not at all gas stations yet and out here in the boonies its not anywhere. I realize you can get the meth/water at any Walmart or HEB and can get the better stuff at a drug store.

Actually, the best methanol is the Industrial kind you get in 55gallon drums. But yes, the other stuff will work as well, so long as you have a good filter inline.

As to the cooling effect I didn't realize there was injector based setups. I only knew of MAF and boost based setups.

Oh yes. Technology is advancing quite a bit. The Aquamist stuff is phenomenal when it comes to "tuning" it just right.

Besides it is bad to always inject water into the system, no?

Wouldn't you only want it under a high load situation to make sure the water leaves the combustion chamber after it turns to steam? Still new to all this but that was my very basic understanding.[/quote]

Anything is bad in "excess". But this is where the 3D map controllers come in handy. You can set them to only come on at X injector duty cycle and y MAP.

For the high temps. When I ran my car at the drag strip I was stuck in the staging lanes forever. It was 92* outside and after 1 hour running the car with no to little movement my IATs went to 180* in the plenum after the blower. I saw 230* under full boost at half track.

But what if you started with 100 degrees and saw 110 by half track, like with methanol? Better power. I'm not saying that an IC set-up won't cool. That would be silly. I'm saying that with water/meth, the cooling effect happens quicker.

My point was if not intercooled and starting with a high IAT it will only get higher under boost.

This is true.

You see when I had my 03 Cobra I added a larger coolant tank and larger front heat exchanger. Being that its an air to water intercooler (like a Vortech Aftercooler) setup I was able to see IATs within 10* to ambient while at idle no matter how long I let it idle and temps didn't change much once under 18psi with the car moving.

Air to water is by design more efficient than air/air.

I have a friend with a very nice modded Cobra that is running the cooling fan equipped heat exchanger and making over 700 rwhp at 24psi and his IATs were almost always at 100* this last summer.

And that's fine. But again, he's running a post boost set-up (I assume it's the roots type blower with the IC under it?).

But yeah, when I was saying "intercooler" I was thinking water/air even though most people will just think Air/air. So for that, my bad.

"Potatoe" "Potato". It's all good.

 

[LaserSVT]

Yes, Whipple setup using the stock 03/04 lower plenum and heat exchanger.

And I agree that meth would cool faster and more completly under boost. Im all for meth and will get it for my car. But if I could have an intercooler (can not with current heads/blower) then I would buy that first as its better for continuous duty. He CAN have an intercooler but does not have one yet. Thats why I say get the intercooler first to do what the meth will do.

Its kinda like nitrous to me. I hate having a "limited" ammount of fun to be had under power. Meth tank runs dry and you have no more fun. Sometimes it may not get refilled due to forgetfullness or location where as the intercooler will always work.
Thats why I am going with the 5 gallon setup on my meth kit so I can run a few tanks of gas before I need to remember to top off the chemical intercoolers tank.

 

[2002WRXSTi]

On the E85 it's like running race gas We were able to get 827 whp out of a 2.5 Subaru running it cause it's like running a water meth kit. Then we were able to put another map in for 93' octane gas if he can't get to a E85 station

On the Aquamist deal we mostly run windshield washer fluid that has methanol in it. Matter of fact I do believe Aquamist says water is better at suppressing detonation instead of strait methanol?

Aside from that we have run 3 Aquamist systems on one car running over 60psi boost and at the end of a run the pipe leading to the throttle body has frost on it However I do believe we were running straight meth on that car?

On my WRX STi I only had a front mount intercooler and in the staging lanes it got no cooling on it at all. I launched at 6000rpm with 93 pump gas on a stock tune with 25psi of boost and no detonation. Yeah my car was built from the factory for boost but only 14psi and a front mount intercooler did the trick in the nasty NJ summer heat at Englishtown

All have there own reasons they are better or worse but they ALL are better than nothing at all :shifty:

 

[lsc8]

I like the flexibility of meth. I can drive anywhere at anytime and not worry about where they might or might not have gas. I run -20 washer fluid which I have always been able to find. Not always the case with e85. Plus even if I were to run out and not be able to find something that would work, the tune will pull timing as the engine heats up and fuel octane drops. You won't have your full power potential, but your won't be sitting on the side of the road out of gas either. I have aprox. a 3.5 gallon tank, and i top it off every time i fill up with gas out of habit. My meth kicks in fairly early and i only use 1 gallon of water/meth per 350 miles or so.

 

[lsc8]

Sorry,
Should have started with the fact that i'd get an intercooler before e85 or meth. But meth over e85. Wish that i had the intercooler option.

 

[Don Pfau]

Thanks, A lot of good information. It will take me a little while to absorb all this. A couple thing It looks like I should have mentioned. The car is not a DD just a hot rod. I do want it street able. But I want the most bang for the buck and want what is best for its longevity. I was leaning toward meth injection instead of intercooled/ aftercooler due to reduced throttle response ?????? Is this true ???? Plus more weight on the front end ?????? The consensus seems to be I need Both ????? Thanks a lot all.

 

[MediumD]

Throttle response will not noticeably change with an intercooler...