NYC LS8
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That's one mean lookin' VIII, man!! :Beer
I'm not posting dyno numbers
- Thread starter Frogman
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94m5
Dmaup's Daddy
m_maker said:
If he does'nt have plans for that........... He will after I get done talking him in to it.(
J/k Alex) With that low of a Comp ratio....it would be retarded not to. The most I am looking at pushing through my 5.0 stroker is ~28 PSI on a 2.8L KB. For the street I'll prolly keep it around 15-17 to help save the motor.Mike
Dominus
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Says file not found. Rehost?
poniesviii
Dedicated LVC Member
94m5 said:If he does'nt have plans for that........... He will after I get done talking him in to it.(
Mike
I assume you're planning on boost only as a power adder?
Why the 2.8? Have you found any pros over the 2.4? I've been curious on this, thinking the only benefit might be running coolor and I don't know if that alone is worth the extra money. They haven't been around long enough for many comparisons, and, I think KB started producing their own parts on this blower unlike the 2.2 and 2.4. Curious on any feedback you've found pretty much, I'm gathering it might just be a waste of money for the 2.8.
vr4
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poniesviii said:
KB isnt doing the 2.4 anymore. the 2.2 became 2.6 and the 2.4 became the 2.8
MediumD
Dedicated LVC Member
m_maker said:
If it's what's "in" than what's "in" is stupid. Even if you can get away running C16 all the time with 10:1 and 20psi, you'd still do better at 8:1 and 28psi...
94m5
Dmaup's Daddy
MediumD said:If it's what's "in" than what's "in" is stupid. Even if you can get away running C16 all the time with 10:1 and 20psi, you'd still do better at 8:1 and 28psi...
Jeremi...at the moment is running a pullied eaton in his 97'. I know he is running compression ratio on the high side, and if you ever rode in that damned car.....jezus god.
I am not saying a 11:1 compression is good for a KB or whipple equipped car, but for a 10-12 Psi car....I see no problem as long as you have a good set of internals, and a good tune. Hell, people are running vortechs at 9-10 psi on stock VIII engines and having no problems.
My 95 had an E-trim at 8 psi for quite a few thousand miles and that same engine is still in the car in naturaly asperated form, still pulling like a bastard, and making the glorious noises that our 4.6's make.
I am aiming for 9:1 on my new engine, and will pulley it to the specs I posted earlier. well see what we see.
Mike
MediumD
Dedicated LVC Member
Well of course you CAN run high compression and low boost, it's not a new concept (look at the Olds Jetfire for example.) It applies when running a stock motor that's already high compression. It even has the benefit of more power when you're not in boost... but why boost a car to not be in boost? And why bother with high comp/low boost if you're going to run aftermarket pistons and can essentially pick any compression you want?
Moes8
Dedicated LVC Member
basic engine dynamics apply here,
the higher comp you can run the more efficient power you will make.
10:1 @ 12 psi > 8:1 @ 14psi.
but.... if you are shooting for 20 plus psi,you cant go high comp. atleast not with last generations computer controls,
we need modern setups with variable timing and such to go high comp like they are starting to do in some modern cars.
the higher comp you can run the more efficient power you will make.
10:1 @ 12 psi > 8:1 @ 14psi.
but.... if you are shooting for 20 plus psi,you cant go high comp. atleast not with last generations computer controls,
we need modern setups with variable timing and such to go high comp like they are starting to do in some modern cars.
Dominus
Dedicated LVC Member
I know a lot of people running straight alchohol injection and close to 30 lbs. of boost on 10:1 compression on a very regular basis. It is very possible, and very reliable.
However there are even more who have engines that make enough off-boost power that they can run turbos large enough that they are tossing out over 800 to the wheels on only 15 psi, making low compression unnecessary. (Not 4.6 DOHCs of course)
But, to each their own.
However there are even more who have engines that make enough off-boost power that they can run turbos large enough that they are tossing out over 800 to the wheels on only 15 psi, making low compression unnecessary. (Not 4.6 DOHCs of course)
But, to each their own.
Frogman
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Um.. Yeah! Ethanol can run at a much higher compression ratio than dino gasoline without detonation.
Ethanol's octane rating is in the what, high 120's, as opposed to a puny 91 for super unleaded? Ofcourse you can run more cylinder pressure. I'd like to see those guys you know run 30lbs of boost on gasoline, and see what happens shortly thereafter.
Ethanol's octane rating is in the what, high 120's, as opposed to a puny 91 for super unleaded? Ofcourse you can run more cylinder pressure. I'd like to see those guys you know run 30lbs of boost on gasoline, and see what happens shortly thereafter.
Dominus
Dedicated LVC Member
Alchohol INJECTION, not alchohol FUEL.
They all run pump 93.
They all run pump 93.
Either way, high compression + boost on a streetcar doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think Froggy wants to continually be filling his alky kit while he is running around on the street. NONE of the 800+ hp turbo streetcars I know run high compression. There's no reason for it. You want more power - easy, clamp the wastegates down a little tighter.
Now, if this was a race-only mill, then sure - run 11:1 compression and 30 psi. Sh!t, racegas is only $9 a gallon, and alcohol is in that ballpark when you start considering how much you'll consume.
Brad Brand's outlaw car is about that compression, and he made 1100 rwhp on 3 psi, and pegged the dyno at 11 psi. Of course, 707 cubic inches doesn't hurt either. However, I don't see him driving it across town either to the mall either.
Paul.
Now, if this was a race-only mill, then sure - run 11:1 compression and 30 psi. Sh!t, racegas is only $9 a gallon, and alcohol is in that ballpark when you start considering how much you'll consume.
Brad Brand's outlaw car is about that compression, and he made 1100 rwhp on 3 psi, and pegged the dyno at 11 psi. Of course, 707 cubic inches doesn't hurt either. However, I don't see him driving it across town either to the mall either.
Paul.
Roadboss
Dedicated LVC Member
I sure enjoy the high compression and 14lbs boost I am running with 93 Octane. That's what you get when you use a competent tuner. A packadge that totally functions, and consort with people running real world stuff.
94m5
Dmaup's Daddy
Roadboss said:
What comp ratio are you running? And what cams?......Im trying to nail down my pcakage, and would like your input as to what to look for. Lido will definatly be doing the tuning, so go from there.
Mike
Roadboss said:
That's great, but in this area all we have is 91 octane, and our "special blend" fuels have been hailed as some of the sh!ttiest gas in the country. My bone stock Lincoln detonates with 91 octane.
The minute it's available in Phoenix, I'm converting my silver car to E85.
Paul.
Roadboss
Dedicated LVC Member
We also have Octane Boosters available in this part of the country. A little research will yield some Boosters that are very powerful in their ability to raise the Octane levels of you current fuel.
Roadboss said:
I have done A TON of research on octane boosters. Guess what? They're not worth the can they're stored in. There is only one on the market that has any real impact on octane levels. Otherwise, you need to buy racegas.
I don't feel like putting $7-9 per gallon fuel in a streetcar.
Dominus
Dedicated LVC Member
Dr. Paul said:
Tank of alky lasts longer than 3 tanks of gas, even if you drive like a complete idiot 100% of the time. (Boost referenced, remember?) If you can fill one tank, you can fill another.
Isn't that good for them. People who want more off-boost power and drivability don't do this.
I hope you aren't trying to say that filling the alky tank will cost you any more than a buck and change per tank of gas. I don't know where you buy your alky from, or how you manage it, but a few dollars of alky should last you 3 tanks of gas.
A 707 N/A will draw enough fuel to make that trip to the mall more than a quarter tank of fuel. So probably not.
A good small high compression (by comparison) engine with good off-boost characteristics will make a fine daily driver though.
Dominus said:
Why bother. Just build the motor the right way and don't worry about it.
A properly designed turbo system will come on very early. Does it really matter how much rear wheel horsepower you're putting down while putzing down the highway at 0 psi?
Why bother? Just build the motor the right way and don't worry about it.
A properly designed turbo system will come on very early. Does it really matter how much rear wheel horsepower you're putting down while putzing down the highway at 0 psi?
Lastly, I would never want the life of my motor dependent on whether or not my alky kit was working, and have enough alky in it.
Build the motor right, and you don't need to constantly be spraying alcohol or water in the mixture to keep your sh!t from detonating because you didn't build the motor right.
Paul.
Dominus
Dedicated LVC Member
Dr. Paul said:
That's your opinion.
More than some feel it is the right way to do it.
Who said anything about the highway? I don't know about you, but when my car accelerates, it doesn't just hit full boost right off idle. Very early is still not instant. Not that a person needs to shoot themselves over this, but any car drives a lot better with a wider, fuller powerband. Most time driving is not spent in boost, so why have less power available most of the time?
That's your opinion.
More than some feel it is the right way to do it.
Who said anything about the highway? I don't know about you, but when my car accelerates, it doesn't just hit full boost right off idle. Very early is still not instant. Not that a person needs to shoot themselves over this, but any car drives a lot better with a wider, fuller powerband. Most time driving is not spent in boost, so why have less power available most of the time?
That's your opinion.
Yeap, because lack of fuel or a faulty fuel pump will never kill your engine. Your engine's life depends upon the flow of 3 fluids anyway. You're not home free without an alky kit. Difference is, alky kits have a warning system for clogging and low alky. If the system fails, you already know it.
That is building the motor right. Not being bogged down by compression too low on the bottom end.
A huge factor that you are forgetting is that a high compression engine running alky is not equivalent to a low compression engine that is not. It is better. At any compression, an engine running straight alky can run a high end race gas tune with no penalties.
Please show me the "properly built" non-alky engines that do that. I know a lot of GN guys who toss in their 117 octane chips running 93 and their "unnecessary" alky kits. High compression engines running race gas chips for lower compression engines as well.
Alky injection is not an equalizer. It's a distinct advantage and superior.
Dominus said:
Huh. Well I guess that dozen or so cars around here running in excess of 750 horsepower with turbos must not be as smart as you - because NONE OF THEM run high compression.
Since most of these cars are producing in excess of 500 ft. lbs. at 3000 rpm, I don't think they give a sh!t about 1500 rpm freeway cruising. Not to mention, they're still V8 motors that don't have zero bottom end like some crappy Honda.
You're right, it is good practice to overcomplicate your car with as many systems necessary for the life of the motor as possible. I don't know about you, but my car has a low fuel pressure warning light.
You're smart.
Bogged down? So you're saying that people running 8.5-9:1 compression don't make power down low? That their engine bogs? Seriously, is that what you're saying?
Of course high compression with a chemical intercooler is superior in terms of sheer power production. That doesn't mean it's good for a streetcar, now does it?
At any compression? So I could build a 15:1 race motor and run 45 lbs of boost with 91 octane and alky? Methinks you're full of sh!t. Again.
Why run alcohol? Just lower the compression and there's no need for it.
Do you not get that?
And it's a pain in the ass on the street.
Paul.
Frogman
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Low compression makes no power? Well hell. I better tell that to my marks' motor that's putting out 330Ft lbs AT THE WHEELS with 8.5:1 CR.
Dominus
Dedicated LVC Member
Dr. Paul said:
Who ever said that low compression does not work? Don't stick words in my mouth. Low compression engines are built properly, and so are high compression ones. You're the only person trying to say that one way is "bad" or "improper". The furthest I have gone is to state that both methods are effective.
I never asked what you care about. I never asked for your opinion at all. The people driving these cars are not you.
I don't recall ever asking for your opinion. If that's how you feel, that's your own business.
No, I never said that at all. I said that the power losses experienced with a lower compression will not be experienced with a higher compression. It's simple mathematics and physics.
It's certainly not bad for a street car.
Who said anything like that? I said that at any compression, there will BE AN ADVANTAGE to running alky. Not that you can run any compression with alky. If you take 2 15:1 race motors running 45 lbs. of boost91 octane, they both explode, but the one running alky will take slightly longer to explode.
Because you are not master of the universe. Some people build their car one way, some people build their cars other ways. Some people prefer to have more power, more torque, and lower octane by running alky. Evidently you can do just fine without these advantages. To each their own.
Who not just lower the compression? Because that makes less power, less torque, a narrower powerband, and necessitates a higher octane of fuel for a set power level than simply running alky and higher compression. More HP, more torque, wider powerband, less octane. That is why.
That's your opinion. Not a fact. I don't know anyone running alky who say it is a pain in the ass. I fill my windshield washer fluid tank more times than I fill my alky tank.
Pouring liquid is not exactly a laborious task. And in return for the massive labor of pouring in a liquid every 750-1500 miles, I get more power, more torque, and a wider power band than an engine built the way you prefer.