Happy holidays to everyone !!!

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`Yeah,look at the lily of the field,Jesus said. Toils not,neither does it spin,but I tell you Solomon in all his glory was not thus adorned'.

The little things all add up to super-intelligence,NOT happenstance. don-ohio :)^)
 
"Holy cow, it's a bunch of LS driving preachers! I repent, the LS is a fine car, really!"

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Telco,,, that is hillarious! You're forgiven. LOL

As far as not knowing the Bible well enough... it's never too late to start. I like sunsets too,,, when I have the time to watch them. There is alot of God in all of nature. The Bible/Jesus says that even the rocks cry out.

Luke 19:37-40 (ESV)

As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

I.E. Since God made everything,,, even the rocks give God Glory... just by being rocks.

To All,

There is NOTHING we can do to separate us from the Love of God,,, except walking away from Him and rejecting Him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:31-39&version=NLT

It doesn't matter what we have done in our past, (and believe me I have a past), God is always willing to take us back. Read the story of the Prodigal son, (that "Billary" took out of context).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15:11-32

The only thing that separates us from God,,, ... is ourselves:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

“There is but one good; that is God. Everything else is good when it looks to Him and bad when it turns from Him.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce


“I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.
-- C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

The basic concept of the Old Testament,,, is the history of man and man's heart... as seen through the story of the Israelites and the surrounding nations. At one point the Israelites were even sacrificing their children to Pagan god's. We are guilty of this today. Not literally,,, but figuratively... when we put money, sex, alcohol, drugs,,, or anything and even our job before our kids.
 
To go back to the Bible verses where Moses speaks face to face with God... as a friend:

Exodus 33:11

Inside the Tent of Meeting, the LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Afterward Moses would return to the camp, but the young man who assisted him, Joshua son of Nun, would remain behind in the Tent of Meeting.

Numbers 12:8

I speak to him face to face, clearly, and not in riddles! He sees the LORD as he is. So why were you not afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

Deuteronomy 34:10

There has never been another prophet in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

And for good measure Hebrews chapter 10 from the New Testament

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/10.htm

Now to understand all of this,,, a person would need to understand that during the nomadic years of the Israelites... God's temple was portable,,, and was a tent. The tent was divided into 3 parts,,, and the inner most part was called the "tent of meeting",,, that was divided by a CURTAIN. All of the priests had to go through many rituals before they could go behind the curtain. Moses was the only one who didn't have to go through the rituals to speak with God "FACE to FACE".

Now fast forward again a couple thousand years,,, to the moment Christ died on the cross:

Mark 15:37-38

37Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last. 38And the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

Matthew 27:50-53

50Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

Again people... God tore the cutain in two,,, giving everyone the same access that Moses had had many years previously.

I''l stop here with one more Bible verse. The translation I like best for this verse comes from the Living Bible of the '70's.

Hosea 6:6: (God speaking)

I don't want your rituals. I don't want your sacrifices. I want YOU to know ME.
 
Continuing on a the above... but with a twist:

I will add a couple of videos. The guy that does these videos,,, has come under fire over the last couple of years... because of his Theology. I don't agree with his Theology,,, but the videos are still very good. The first one is about 15 minutes. The second is about an hour and a half.

Enjoy:

https://vimeo.com/46266588

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39m0oty9BPU

The second video does a very good job of outlining the history of man,,, and the Old Testament... and tying it into the new testament.
 
It's impossible for sacrifice to take away sins. Any relgion, faith, or theology that says you need to do or sacrifice anything to make yourself right with God... any religion, faith, or theology that says Jesus's death on the cross isn't enough to make us right with God... is a false religion, faith, or theology,,, and says that Christ died for nothing!!!
 
Any religion, faith, ot theology that says you need to suufer "pentance" for a while to make yourself right with God... is a a false religion, faith, or theology also,,, and negates what Christ did for us on the cross.
 
Ohh the stories I could tell about my own life!!! When I suffered the loss of my dad that raised me,,, I was angry with God.... and wanted to do things my own way. However,,, I still acknowledged God,,, even though I was pissed at HIM.

Ashe true story goes:

I was roughly 18 at the time. I had a buddy named "Curt" back then. He was a few years older than me,,, lived in a rich neighborhood... and was a semi-good, (but lost at the same time), mentor to me. There was a time when Curt and I went to University Lanes, (bowling alley by the local university),,, to shoot some pool. We ended up meeting a couple girls at the bowling alley that we shot pool with. It was decided afterwards that we would all go to one of the girls houses,,, to play cards. Everything was going good... until the older girls ex- boyfriend started pounding on the door. He was ignored until he kicked the door in. At that point the younger girl and I went down to the corner payphone,,, and called the police. We went back to shotguns being pulled off the wall... and my buddy sitting on the front porch shaking. Then furniture started flying through the front window,,, and in the process... the older girl picked up a couple of knives. I "knew" something bad was going to happen at that point with the older girl... and was asking God... "please do something". Next thing I know,,, I'm walking toward the older girl, (against my own will)... and when I get to her,,, I gently place my hands on her shoulders... and slide them down to her wrists. I then squeezed lightly on her wrists,,, and told her to "let go", (of the knives). After a couple of times of doing that, (with slight resistance from the girl), she dropped the knives. I picked them up... and threw them in the bushes. The girl and her ex-boyfriend then had a moment of reconciliation... and "goodbye". Later... as the older girl and "Curt" started dating,,, the girl made mention that I was strong, (referencing back to the night I took the knives from her). I told her that it wasn't me that night... but it was God. Last time I saw that girl was before I got married,,, and she was attending church. Haven't seen her in decades,,, but still wonder how she is doing.

I've seen drunk drivers hit guys on bicycles,,, dragging them under their van... and when a buddy and i got to them,,, they were bleeding from their jugular. The only prayer I had at the time... was the Lord's Prayer. Iv'e seen drunk drivers hit power poles,,, and survive... only to get out of their car and get zapped by them being the path to ground,,, because of the wires laying across their car. However,,, I've been soaking wet in the rain... and been hit by several thousand volts... and am still walking this earth today. I've predicted car accidents,,, just seconds before they happened... and watched a guy burn to death, (unconcious thankfully),,, while a buddy talked me out of trying to drag the guy out of the burning car. The rescue team pulled the guy out in 3 pieces,,, after one guy ran to the woods puking. I've had a fire extinguisher and a seat belt cutter in my vehicles for a while now... just in case. Not for me,,, but for others.

Back in the day,,, I wanted to do Nascar... and I practiced, (sometimes very poorly), on the streets. Went through a couple of cars, (not including the 2 I've flipped),,, and walked away from all of it. Lots more i could talk about,,, but some isn't mentionable. Point is... I could have,,, and should have been dead over 30 years ago... but for some reason God still has me walking this earth!!!
 
The best story I have about the Lord saving me from stupidity, I was running down a back country road I was unfamiliar with going about 80MPH in a 72 Cutlass (455cid) when I was 16 or 17, with three friends in the car. I thought I was a mile further up than I was because at the end of the road there was a hard ramp-like hill where it became the bottom of a T. When I saw that hill I jumped on the brakes, turned the wheel hard and didn't have time to pray. I figure I executed a perfect 90 degree turn at about 50-60MPH. The only way I should have gone here was at best do a Duke boys jump into a cow pasture, at worst have grabbed just enough of a turn to flip the car over at an angle because there was no way that car was going to either stop or make the turn. What I did was a physical impossibility, and yet there it was. Funny thing about it, I remember hitting the hill and the nose coming up for the expected jump, and I remember driving immediately after the turn, but I don't remember actually MAKING the turn. Anyone want to explain that to me in a way that proves God didn't make that turn for me, I'll be glad to listen because I like science fiction.
 
04_Sport_LS said:
It's impossible for sacrifice to take away sins. Any relgion, faith, or theology that says you need to do or sacrifice anything to make yourself right with God... any religion, faith, or theology that says Jesus's death on the cross isn't enough to make us right with God... is a false religion, faith, or theology,,, and says that Christ died for nothing!!!
Click to expand...

Oddly (maybe?)..... The Old Covenant sacrifices were ONLY for Israel and like you said, only covered their sins. Yeshua's work on the cross (and subsequent resurrection) removed the sins of those who accept his free (can't do ANYTHING to earn it!) gift and is available to ANYONE, Jew or Gentile. One just has to trust Him! That is the mystery Saul/Paul talks about in his letters.

Also, any theology that teaches other than that Yeshua was God is a cult.
 
That's what the Jews called the first Christians, a cult. Jesus is not God Almighty,but he IS a god like the angels,but above them all. He is the chief among heavenly beings next to God,his Father.
How Many times did Jesus say,'Ì am God's son.' ?. Who spoke from heaven at Jesus' baptism from heaven? The Almighty God said,'This is MY SON, whom I have approved. Listen to him.'
Colossians tells us Jesus was the `first born of all CREATION'. Yes,Jesus was created by his Father,the Almighty.
Jesus is now exalted to a position second only to the Father,as it should be. He is poised to bring destruction of all wicked as the rider of the white horse in Revelation. don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
That's what the Jews called the first Christians, a cult. Jesus is not God Almighty,but he IS a god like the angels,but above them all. He is the chief among heavenly beings next to God,his Father.
How Many times did Jesus say,'Ì am God's son.' ?. Who spoke from heaven at Jesus' baptism from heaven? The Almighty God said,'This is MY SON, whom I have approved. Listen to him.'
Colossians tells us Jesus was the `first born of all CREATION'. Yes,Jesus was created by his Father,the Almighty.
Jesus is now exalted to a position second only to the Father,as it should be. He is poised to bring destruction of all wicked as the rider of the white horse in Revelation. don-ohio :)^)
Click to expand...


Not at all true! Why did the Jewish leader want Him executed? Because He claimed to be an exalted angel? Not at all! He claimed the divine name of God as well as equality with God. "What about I and the Father are one?" Compare Gen. 1:1 and Col 1:16. I'll let you do the research. Yeshua is the 2nd person of the triune God... Deuteronomy 6:4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu (plural of Elohim), Adonai echad [Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one]; 5 and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. The Jews weren't confused about the "trinity". Check Phil 2:7. Angles, as created beings, aren't divine. NOTHING created can be divine and Yeshua claimed divinity on a regular basis.

A created being could NEVER satisfy the penalty for our sinful nature. Your position is pure heresy!
 
There is no such thing as the trinity.It is never mentioned in the Bible.MANY false religions have triune gods. Yes,Jesus and the Father were ONE in that they were in total agreement.
Jesus ALWAYS said he was God's son. You do not take his word for it because of the teachings that have been handed down generation after generation.
Jesus was `favorably heard for his godly fear'.............who'd he fear? Himself?
When Jesus died,God darkened the sky,shook the earth,etc......Jesus had given up his spirit to God's memory in order to be resurrected in the spirit 3 days later.
Did Jesus resurrect himself? No. HIS Father, Yahweh,resurrected him to a high station and gave him the name that is above every other name.
I John 5:7 is responsible for much of this misunderstanding. It is a spurious addition not found in the oldest manuscripts,yet the KJ bible puts it right in there. John I: 1 is also mistranslated,making no distinction between the Greek Tone Theon and Theos. Almighty God is Tone Theon, Jesus is a theos,or a god.
Jesus always gave credit and praise to his God,the Father. He said.....`I am going my way to my Father and your Father..MY GOD and your God.' Yahweh is Jesus' Father and God.
don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote LS4me:`A created being could NEVER satisfy the penalty for our sinful nature. Your position is pure heresy!' end quote.

So you do NOT believe Colossians 1:15 ? SAYS he(Jesus) was created by God. You don't believe that? don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
Quote LS4me:`A created being could NEVER satisfy the penalty for our sinful nature. Your position is pure heresy!' end quote.

So you do NOT believe Colossians 1:15 ? SAYS he(Jesus) was created by God. You don't believe that? don-ohio :)^)
Click to expand...

Hmmm.....

"15 He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation,.." Doesn't sound created to me!
 
go figure, people arguing to the meaning of books written thousands of years ago, and in a different language... been that way since the beginning. and part of why there are so many deviations of Christianity.



but since Don has quoted John, it pretty much starts and ends there...


John: 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

in this, the "Word" is Jesus


since the beginning of existence (which would mean that they have co-existed forever), the Word was not only WITH God but also WAS God.





how does "The Word" here refer to Jesus? glad you asked...

just a little further down the page

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


I don't know about you guys, but I can only think of one being in that book that was around since the beginning and then was born a man... yep, Jesus.





as far as Colossians 1:15 saying that he(Jesus) was created by God...

it doesn't say that he was created...

it says
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

it does not say that god created him, it says that he is the visible version of the invisible god. firstborn is referring to (similarly to when Jesus is referred to gods heir*) him being in charge of every created thing. firstborn is not indicating creation, or literally being born first, after all Jesus wasn't born until after a whole lot of other earthly and heavenly beings were created, but firstborn as in generally the firstborn is the most important/heir child and is first inline to receive everything once the father passes away.

*Heir is not the best way to describe Jesus either, as an heir is the one who receives the rank or property of a person upon their death, and I'm pretty sure god not gonna ever die...

not to mention that is just the very next verse

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

it says that by (or through depending on which version you prefer) him, ALL things were created IN HEAVEN and in earth.

if he was involved in all creation, how would he create himself?

more so, if he was created, that would meant that Jesus is not eternal, are you saying that Jesus is not eternal? nothing created can be eternal, eternal means lasting or existing forever, without end or beginning
 
http://www.gotquestions.org/little-lower-angels.html

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/2.htm

Lets also not forget Genesis 1:26

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Notice the plurality "US" in this verse. Jesus was around from the beginning, and took part in creating everything.

If a person were to venture through the Old Testament,,, they would notice times where "THE Angel of the Lord", (God The Father Himself), or an "Angel of the Lord", (an actual Angel), came to specific people at certain times. However... when we get to the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the firey furnace... king Nebuchadnezzar saw a fourth Person in there with them. Again... in the Biblical narrative of the OT, the Hebrews/Israelites always had a name for God or an Angel.

I have no proof of this,,, but I contend that the reason the fourth Person in the furnace wasn't identified,,, is because the narrators had no name for someone they hadn't met yet... and wouldn't meet for a couple thousand years. I.E. ,,, the fourth Person in the furnace was Jesus.
 
Quote from LS4me:

"Oddly (maybe?)..... The Old Covenant sacrifices were ONLY for Israel and like you said, only covered their sins. Yeshua's work on the cross (and subsequent resurrection) removed the sins of those who accept his free (can't do ANYTHING to earn it!) gift and is available to ANYONE, Jew or Gentile. One just has to trust Him! That is the mystery Saul/Paul talks about in his letters."

LS4,

Actually,,, there's more to it than just applying to the Israelites. But you are slso correct in what you said. The system God set up in the OT was only meant to be temporary until Jesus came along. I meant to expand on this a few posts back... but forgot. So now to continue:

Galatians 3:19-25 (NLT):

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham. 21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it.

22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ. 23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."

To a degree,,, the Law was given to us to show that we could never keep it.


http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/9.htm

http://biblehub.com/nlt/hebrews/10.htm

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13007/what-is-the-meaning-of-romans-212
 
Something else to consider. Jesus's death on the cross did not save all of the Hebrews/Israelites that died before He came. Not all Jews were saved after Jesus died either. The same goes for the rest of us also.

I suggest reading the whole book of Romans, (in a modern english version). It is quite enlightening. In it you will find the following:

Romans 3:20, 3:30-31

20For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are....... 30There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.j 31Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.


Romans 4:9-10, 4:13-17

9Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles?c Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. 10But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! ........

13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) 16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, “I have made you the father of many nations.”d This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing

5:1

1Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

9:6-8

6Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! 7Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,”d though Abraham had other children, too. 8This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children.

10:5-10

5For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.c 6But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart.”d

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

11:5-6

5It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israelc have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them. 6And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

So salvation has nothing to do with lineage or bloodline. When God told Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars,,, or the sands on the seashore... God was talking about people past/present/and future,,, for the whole span of time... that had faith in HIM!

Shalom
 
I don't know which version you quoted LS4me,but here is the King James version of Colossians 1:15 : `Who is the image of the invisible God,the FIRSTBORN of every creature.' Caps mine.
Makes it plain that Jesus was the first creation of the Almighty God,Yahweh.
don-ohio :)^)
 
Regarding Colossians 1:15 translations,LS4me.......(1)Byington says FIRSTBORN of all creation.
(2) American Standard Version says FIRSTBORN of all creation.
(3) Reference Bible says FIRSTBORN of all creation.
(4) and of course as already mentioned,the King James bible says FIRSTBORN.
Hence,Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of all creation. There is no Greek term in the Greek Interlinear Emphatic Diaglott to support a translation of the word SUPREME.
So what version did you find that in? don-ohio :)^) Note: Caps were mine.
 
Y'all argue all you want. God made the world, and made us all. He wrote the physical laws of the Universe. Jesus was His Son. God sent Jesus to give us the gift of redemption by dying on the cross for our sins. Jesus is the Key to Heaven. I don't care about the particulars, but I know this is the way it was and the way it is. Jesus died to save us all, and rose 3 days later to take His place by God's side. I'm not the greatest person in the world, in fact the skeletons in my closet would fill three graveyards and 72.5 haunted houses and I'll likely have more before I die. Doesn't matter. Jesus died to save me. I don't care if I only rate a cardboard box in the middle of a cess pool in Heaven, it'll be better than the mansion of the Devil himself. Enjoy the debate.
 
I've got TEN MORE translations that say FIRSTBORN if you want them listed. The Jewish Bible seems to be where you got that word mistranslated SUPREME. You can put all your eggs in that basket if you want to risk it. don-ohio :)^)
 
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