God v Atheism

it's not something you posted before. it is from a religious site. my point in posting it is that when it comes to things in genesis, i keep being rebuked by interpreting things literally. yet this clearly states that things are to be taken literally. 6 days, resting on the seventh. not days where eons may lapse. and there are many more unbelievable things. yet as we find the true age of the universe, or i should say a very close approximation,(to within a few million either way) and the age of the earth, it could not happen as described. so it would seem to be a man made story. but then, rationalize this any way you must.

and as for hinduism, you asked for proof of it being older than 6000 years old. so what were you implying was 6000 years old then? i wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, but you left nothing stated so i made 3 guesses.( before the jeopardy music ended.)
 
Sean Connary: "I'll take 'the rapists' for $400!"

Alex Trebek: "Thats therapists..."
 
it's not something you posted before. it is from a religious site. my point in posting it is that when it comes to things in genesis, i keep being rebuked by interpreting things literally. yet this clearly states that things are to be taken literally. 6 days, resting on the seventh. not days where eons may lapse. and there are many more unbelievable things.
Riiiiight. As if the sudden occurrence of the so-called "Big Bang" is believable, or the Cambrian Explosion (show me the difference between this and Creation, please?) is believable, or the very assertion that birds evolved from reptiles is believable (it's not even scientifically possible given the circumstances in which it supposedly happened!)? It's much more believable that an omnipotent God simply said it and it was so, than it is for me to believe all the silly made-up theories that these fallible, human evolutionists come up with in order to fill the gaping maws in their scientific data. You need more faith to believe your religion than I do mine. But rationalize this in any way you must.
yet as we find the true age of the universe, or i should say a very close approximation,(to within a few million either way) and the age of the earth, it could not happen as described.
THIS statement above in bold is what you CANNOT PROVE. You can harp all day long about how the universe is billions of years old, "as we find," but "WE" don't find any such thing. If you want to actually argue the science of this, I'll be glad to post a few articles that actually DESTROY that assertion, but you just blithely claiming it to be so doesn't mean squat. As Tom Sawyer said, "Just you saying it doesn't make it so."
so it would seem to be a man made story. but then, rationalize this any way you must.
Gee, you don't sound very sure here, now do you? What a terrible conclusion, especially since you did not offer one single shred of proof that backs it up.
and as for hinduism, you asked for proof of it being older than 6000 years old. so what were you implying was 6000 years old then? i wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, but you left nothing stated so i made 3 guesses.( before the jeopardy music ended.)
I wasn't implying anything with that statement, I was merely challenging you to show me evidence where YOU implied that Hinduism was OLDER than 6,000 years.

You are hung up on emphasizing the age of a belief system as a large part of its legitimacy. Okay, fine: If the AGE of a religion is what gives it its credibility according to you, then your own belief in evolution (yes, it is a religion) is suspect, since it's been around less than 200 years. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Oh YES, Christianity AND Judaism are BOTH older than evolution!
 
so who's putting words where? i never stated hinduism was 6000 years old. i said it was the oldest practiced religion. there is a difference. and the age of the universe only recently was able to be found. technology capable of this didn't exist at the time. but continue to believe in myth and deny reality.
 
so who's putting words where? i never stated hinduism was 6000 years old. i said it was the oldest practiced religion. there is a difference. and the age of the universe only recently was able to be found. technology capable of this didn't exist at the time. but continue to believe in myth and deny reality.

and if god wiped out mankind with noah, then why is hinduism the oldest practiced belief. surely it can't be older than adam and eve. yet it is.

Estimated history dates the Biblical flood (Noah) at 4500 years ago. Adam and Eve are estimated to have been created 6,000+- years ago. You just said Hindiusm is older than Adam and Eve. Don't say reckless things and then deny you said them. You'll get caught every time...by me.

And what is the age of the universe? And what SPECIFIC evidence proves this? Time for you to put your money where your cowardly, insulting mouth is.
 
the age of the universe only recently was able to be found.

...we think. Basically we have a new way of calculating the age and/or a new technique for getting info to plug into an equation. We assume that these methods are better and more accurate, but we have know way of knowing, either way. We can't know if the methods we use to find the age of the universe are accurate.:)
 
Yeah, evolution scientists are still revising their dating theories. This isn't settled by a long shot, and the harder they try the worse it gets for them. And they still can't plug the holes in their galaxy problem.

Hrmwrm, you simply are not up on your scientific news, otherwise you wouldn't speak so rashly.
 
you mean something like this.
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=36646

where galaxies seem to be more developed than they should be at a distance? what's so unreal about that? hubble only recently discovered what is referred to as the deep field. study of distant galaxies is in it's infancy. you make it sound like some smoking gun you've discovered. that's why i don't trust your view of science. it's a little jaded. were you of aware of dark galxies? ones where no stars have formed? they exist also.

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/news/darkgalaxy/

and there are more discoveries to be made when the super collider comes online in 2008. i suggest it is your scientific knowledge that is lacking. search through jpl's website and see what is around. discoveries are being made all the time. mankind is in the infancy of discovery. but you just keep with your outdated but comfortable way. enjoy.
 
Yeah, evolution scientists are still revising their dating theories. This isn't settled by a long shot, and the harder they try the worse it gets for them. And they still can't plug the holes in their galaxy problem.

Hrmwrm, you simply are not up on your scientific news, otherwise you wouldn't speak so rashly.
Recently I heard a news report about scientists doubting the credibility of the big bang theory which was/is a major part of evolutionists view about the origins of life. Apparently however, the big bang theory is really nothing but a big dud.

Thus, when someone says that evolution is fact, I'm reminded of all the other so-called "facts" that are no longer facts because another group of scientists see the situation differently, or the facts turned out to be fraud. In reality, "facts" that change were never really "facts" in the first place.
 
Recently I heard a news report about scientists doubting the credibility of the big bang theory which was/is a major part of evolutionists view about the origins of life. Apparently however, the big bang theory is really nothing but a big dud.

Thus, when someone says that evolution is fact, I'm reminded of all the other so-called "facts" that are no longer facts because another group of scientists see the situation differently, or the facts turned out to be fraud. In reality, "facts" that change were never really "facts" in the first place.

Exactly. For example, to Darwin, it was a FACT that the cell was the smallest irreducible mechanism. Much of his evolutionary theory was based on that "FACT." OOOOOOOPS.
 
so, i've proven that there is no reason to believe that a day in genesis is anything other than a day. it was even "written in stone by the finger of god". 6 literal 24 hour days. and i've proven the relative age of the universe, which is excessively older than the age of the earth. and after earths formation, there have been billions of years of nothing to simple life to montrous creatures before mans term on earth. sounds like a lot more than 6 days. and yes, this is literal. but as i proved within the words in the bible itself, there is no reason to believe in anything but a literal interpretation.

so again, i re-iterate, the bible is not believable in it's chronicle of events pertaining to creation. yet these are god's words exactly written. but why would they be wrong? maybe because the bible IS manmade?
 
so, i've proven that there is no reason to believe that a day in genesis is anything other than a day. it was even "written in stone by the finger of god". 6 literal 24 hour days. and i've proven the relative age of the universe, which is excessively older than the age of the earth. and after earths formation, there have been billions of years of nothing to simple life to montrous creatures before mans term on earth. sounds like a lot more than 6 days. and yes, this is literal. but as i proved within the words in the bible itself, there is no reason to believe in anything but a literal interpretation.

so again, i re-iterate, the bible is not believable in it's chronicle of events pertaining to creation. yet these are god's words exactly written. but why would they be wrong? maybe because the bible IS manmade?
Your arrogance is exceeded only by your futile ignorance. Even evolutionary scientists don't make statements using the words "proved" or "proven." You've repeatedly backtracked and said science isn't complete, yet you've proven? So now you're contradicting yourself.

To be honest, you sound like a desperate person clinging to the liferaft of your belief system, and your best responses are to assert that you are right about everything. You offer no evidence, and you examine none that is offered to you. Why we are even still discussing this is beyond me, since with you it is completely unproductive.
 
my arrogance? you make me laugh fossten. and it would be you clinging to the side of a sinking ship. and i've given evidence within this thread. i've examined evidence put forward to me. you're wrong on that point. you're just frustated that i haven't wavered an come up kissing you're hiney for showing me the way. i have made a few points, but you sit in denial refusing to see reality. instead of admitting there are inaccuracies in the bible you just come out and attack.

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/heic0406a.html

have you ever looked at this fossten? read through to the bottom and notice the dates. 4 years ago. and discoveries have accelerated. galaxies that are billions of light years away don't just appear out of nowhere. it takes the time of the distance away for the light to be visible here. some of these are so far away that it has taken most of the universes age for their light to be visible here with powerful enough instruments. so there is no denying the age of the universe as ancient.(i suggest the screen size link to view)
 
so, i've proven that there is no reason to believe that a day in genesis is anything other than a day. it was even "written in stone by the finger of god". 6 literal 24 hour days. and i've proven the relative age of the universe, which is excessively older than the age of the earth. and after earths formation, there have been billions of years of nothing to simple life to montrous creatures before mans term on earth. sounds like a lot more than 6 days. and yes, this is literal. but as i proved within the words in the bible itself, there is no reason to believe in anything but a literal interpretation.

so again, i re-iterate, the bible is not believable in it's chronicle of events pertaining to creation. yet these are god's words exactly written. but why would they be wrong? maybe because the bible IS manmade?

You haven't proven anything, in regards to biblical interpretation. That is not a slight; no one can prove or disprove a biblical interpretation, except God himself, especially when it comes to Genesis.

You have presented a compelling interpretation, but the Bible, being a work of faith, is beyond proving or disproving. The Bible is full of inconsistences, and as such can't be taken literally. It is also a work of faith, and so the burden of proof is extremely high; you have to prove your interpretation beyond any reasonable doubt with facts and evidence, as well as disproving any other possible interpretation beyond any reasonable doubt with facts and evidence. That is impossible because (1) we haven't discussed every possible interpretation here, let alone tried to disprove them, and (2) the bible teaches through parables and analogies. It is an inconsistent document in the literal sense, and as such is short on any facts, or evidence to use. What you have shown is that your interpretation is consistent with certian passages in the bible and is held by others. But you haven't proven it. Fossten can't prove his biblical interpretations and he is one of the most "scriptually informed" here. He can present a very well thought out argument in favor of his interpretation (as you have done for yours), but he can't prove it. Interpretation can't be proven because you can't show that ,when bound by reasoned objectivity, there is only one view to take, given all the info. That can be done with evolution, because it's a science.

Effectively, you are still trying to apply the standards for evaluating a science to religion. That can't be done, because they are two completely different things. Science relies of facts and reason for it's credibility. Religion doesn't.

This is why I don't like debating interpretations of scripture. At that level of detail, there is no definite right or wrong.
 
i meant in my statement that there is no reason to believe that a day means anything but a day in the bible. it was a quote from a minister that i pasted in my other post. and thats not interpretation of the bible as a whole. that is 1 word. but also in science, there are interpretations of the evidence. some see it 1 way, still others another. i'm not afraid to admit science doesn't have everything wrapped up. they are only beginning in space. things found in physics that are predicted are being confirmed. the processes in space are known, but some things could not be known ahead of time. seeing extreme distance galaxies is but 4 years old. that's not a lot of time to come up with a consensus on the data. we won't see an end to discoveries in our lifetime. instruments keep getting more powerful and able to measure things we can't see. although i do believe they will find a planet with the right mix for possible life within my lifetime. verification is beyond a few generations of time though. distances are too huge for quick proving.
 
...and discoveries have accelerated. galaxies that are billions of light years away don't just appear out of nowhere. it takes the time of the distance away for the light to be visible here. some of these are so far away that it has taken most of the universes age for their light to be visible here with powerful enough instruments. so there is no denying the age of the universe as ancient.
When you think about it, isn't it a bit foolish to not believe in God given how amazing the universe is, coupled with the fact that we know little about it? How many more amazing things will be discovered before even the most stubborn atheist begins to wonder if there really is an intelligent creator. Surely all the amazing things about the universe, including laws of physics, couldn't simply appear from nothing. ;)
 
not really mac. as with everything, it depends on your perspective. it's something that has been happening every where. putting god in puts you in a closed system. the universe is unending as far as we know. like god, the universe has no known ending or beginning. humans are the only intelligent species that we know of that has started to come to an understanding of it. i just see religion and god as old world view. a supernatural being was an easy way to understand something fantastic. but that is no longer necessary to understand things. since written language, we can now keep handing down knowledge, throwing out old and outdated and continuing with new and adding to the knowledge because every so many generations don't have to start over.

a better understanding of how it all works is within our grasp, without a supernatural power to have started it. things do have an order and laws that they work by. do you just believe in god, or do you believe in a religious god? if religious, then everything was created for man. take a look at the cosmos. doesn't that seem a bit excessive for the purpose? you have light arriving from galaxies here that is older than our solar system by almost triple. and this may not be the end of the universe. it is the end of our visible universe. 20 years from now even that may change, as new technology allows us to investigate further.

we understand the physics of how everything ticks. how things like our solar system come together are generally understood. and it doesn't take outside forces for it to occur. it does happen. it is happening in some places in our galaxie right now. new stars are forming, new planets coming together, new solar systems. and no outside force is directing it. it is the way of the cosmos. some systems may be made that will support life in the future. we may even find planets that have a signature that life could exist there.(if you follow space discovery, you'll understand what this is)

and physics is simply a tool to understanding things in the form of higher mathematics. and i guess like god, the universe is not to question it's existence, it's to discover it. an anology to religion would be that science right now is like religion before it was compiled to full scriptures and ceremonies. but unlike religion, we have tools to discover things that were unfathomable 2000-3000 years ago. we know how stars work. they are not magical balls of light. we know life existed for a long time on this planet before man. if earths time were a 24hr. clock, man wouldn't account for but a few seconds. and if man were wiped out tomorrow, life in some form would continue to exist.

there are many non-believers who don't need an outside force to explain what once seemed incredulous. i call myself athiest because then i don't have to create a definition for my disbelief. the name already has an explanation for it. there are things that have no explanation, but i don't need to create one to be satisfied. that's the easy way out.
 
The universe is too incredible and too hard for hrmwrm to understand, so because it does not fit into his shortsighted worldview, there must not be a God.

That's not even a logical leap, it's an excuse.:rolleyes:

i call myself athiest because then i don't have to create a definition for my disbelief.
I call this denial.

you have light arriving from galaxies here that is older than our solar system by almost triple. and this may not be the end of the universe. it is the end of our visible universe. 20 years from now even that may change, as new technology allows us to investigate further.

Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang

by Robert Newton

The ‘distant starlight problem’ is sometimes used as an argument against biblical creation. People who believe in billions of years often claim that light from the most distant galaxies could not possibly reach earth in only 6,000 years. However, the light-travel–time argument cannot be used to reject the Bible in favour of the big bang, with its billions of years. This is because the big bang model also has a light-travel–time problem.

The background
In 1964/5, Penzias and Wilson discovered that the earth was bathed in a faint microwave radiation, apparently coming from the most distant observable regions of the universe, and this earned them the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1978.1 This Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) comes from all directions in space and has a characteristic temperature.2,3 While the discovery of the CMB has been called a successful prediction of the big bang model,4 it is actually a problem for the big bang. This is because the precisely uniform temperature of the CMB creates a light-travel–time problem for big bang models of the origin of the universe.

The problem
The temperature of the CMB is essentially the same everywhere5—in all directions (to a precision of 1 part in 100,000).6 However (according to big bang theorists), in the early universe, the temperature of the CMB7 would have been very different at different places in space due to the random nature of the initial conditions. These different regions could come to the same temperature if they were in close contact. More distant regions would come to equilibrium by exchanging radiation (i.e. light8). The radiation would carry energy from warmer regions to cooler ones until they had the same temperature.


(1) Early in the alleged big bang, points A and B start out with different temperatures.
(2) Today, points A and B have the same temperature, yet there has not been enough time for them to exchange light.
The problem is this: even assuming the big bang timescale, there has not been enough time for light to travel between widely separated regions of space. So, how can the different regions of the current CMB have such precisely uniform temperatures if they have never communicated with each other?9 This is a light-travel–time problem.10

The big bang model assumes that the universe is many billions of years old. While this timescale is sufficient for light to travel from distant galaxies to earth, it does not provide enough time for light to travel from one side of the visible universe to the other. At the time the light was emitted, supposedly 300,000 years after the big bang, space already had a uniform temperature over a range at least ten times larger than the distance that light could have travelled (called the ‘horizon’)11 So, how can these regions look the same, i.e. have the same temperature? How can one side of the visible universe ‘know’ about the other side if there has not been enough time for the information to be exchanged? This is called the ‘horizon problem’.12 Secular astronomers have proposed many possible solutions to it, but no satisfactory one has emerged to date (see Attempts to overcome the big bang’s ‘light-travel–time problem’ below).

Summing up
The big bang requires that opposite regions of the visible universe must have exchanged energy by radiation, since these regions of space look the same in CMB maps. But there has not been enough time for light to travel this distance. Both biblical creationists and big bang supporters have proposed a variety of possible solutions to light-travel–time difficulties in their respective models. So big-bangers should not criticize creationists for hypothesizing potential solutions, since they do the same thing with their own model. The horizon problem remains a serious difficulty for big bang supporters, as evidenced by their many competing conjectures that attempt to solve it. Therefore, it is inconsistent for supporters of the big bang model to use light-travel time as an argument against biblical creation, since their own notion has an equivalent problem.

Attempts to overcome the big bang’s ‘light-travel–time problem’
Currently, the most popular idea is called ‘inflation’—a conjecture invented by Alan Guth in 1981. In this scenario, the expansion rate of the universe (i.e. space itself) was vastly accelerated in an ‘inflation phase’ early in the big bang. The different regions of the universe were in very close contact before this inflation took place. Thus, they were able to come to the same temperature by exchanging radiation before they were rapidly (faster than the speed of light1) pushed apart. According to inflation, even though distant regions of the universe are not in contact today, they were in contact before the inflation phase when the universe was small.

However, the inflation scenario is far from certain. There are many different inflation models, each with its set of difficulties. Moreover, there is no consensus on which (if any) inflation model is correct. A physical mechanism that could cause the inflation is not known, though there are many speculations. There are also difficulties on how to turn off the inflation once it starts—the ‘graceful exit’ problem.2 Many inflation models are known to be wrong—making predictions that are not consistent with observations,3 such as Guth’s original model.4 Also, many aspects of inflation models are currently unable to be tested.

Some astronomers do not accept inflationary models and have proposed other possible solutions to the horizon problem. These include: scenarios in which the gravitational constant varies with time,5 the ‘ekpyrotic model’ which involves a cyclic universe,6 scenarios in which light takes ‘shortcuts’ through extra (hypothetical) dimensions,7 ‘null-singularity’ models,8 and models in which the speed of light was much greater in the past.9,10 (Creationists have also pointed out that a changing speed of light may solve light-travel–time difficulties for biblical creation.11)

In light of this disagreement, it is safe to say that the horizon problem has not been decisively solved.
 
you stated essentially what i said, that answers aren't in for everything. physics is not hard for me to understand fossten. my lack of belief in god comes from the bible itself and it's falsehoods and discrepencies. try that link sometime that i posted. but you might learn something you wish to deny.
 

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