God is Only a Theory

One more time.

https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...violence_in_world_karen_armstrong_argues.html

This time a, (supposed), direct interview with Karen Armstrong.... and I think she "hit's the nail on the head".

To quote a couple lines from Karen Armstrong in the interview:

"One of the things we must sort out is the Israeli-Arab conflict. When I was on the UN committee for the Alliance of Civilizations, we put Israel and Palestine into a separate tier. It has become the symbol of everything that is wrong, and people like bin Laden have exploited it."

Right after this... John Locke is again mentioned.

So can Gutzman say he has been on any sort of UN committee??? In any sort of attempt to bring peace in violence????

I have taken some time, (though not enough), to study Islam... and true followers don't blow anything up... or cause harm to other people. Cognitive dissonance comes in many different forms. Either way... I'll still keep my fundamentalist Christian Faith.
 
SD<

HMMM.... This is interesting. As futher study on Locke progressed,,, guess where I ended up???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

AND guess who's picture is at the right in the article??? That's right... John Locke's!!!

In the "Etymology"section of the article... it shows that Empiricalism came from the Greeks.

"The English term "empirical" derives from the Greek word ἐμπειρία, which is cognate with and translates to the Latin experientia, from which we derive the word "experience" and the related "experiment". The term was used by the Empiric school of ancient Greek medical practitioners, who rejected the three doctrines of the Dogmatic school, preferring to rely on the observation of "phenomena".[5]"

Later,,, the article mentions Aristotle and Plato.

Then... under the article heading:

British Empiricism... this is found:

British empiricism, though it was not a term used at the time, derives from the 17th century period of early modern philosophy and modern science. The term became useful in order to describe differences perceived between two of its founders Francis Bacon, described as empiricist, and René Descartes, who is described as a rationalist. Thomas Hobbes and Baruch Spinoza, in the next generation, are often also described as an empiricist and a rationalist respectively. John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume were the primary exponents of empiricism in the 18th century Enlightenment, with Locke being the person who is normally known as the founder of empiricism as such.

In response to the early-to-mid-17th century "continental rationalism" John Locke (1632–1704) proposed in An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689) a very influential view wherein the only knowledge humans can have is a posteriori, i.e., based upon experience. Locke is famously attributed with holding the proposition that the human mind is a tabula rasa, a "blank tablet", in Locke's words "white paper", on which the experiences derived from sense impressions as a person's life proceeds are written. There are two sources of our ideas: sensation and reflection. In both cases, a distinction is made between simple and complex ideas. The former are unanalysable, and are broken down into primary and secondary qualities. Primary qualities are essential for the object in question to be what it is. Without specific primary qualities, an object would not be what it is. For example, an apple is an apple because of the arrangement of its atomic structure. If an apple was structured differently, it would cease to be an apple. Secondary qualities are the sensory information we can perceive from its primary qualities. For example, an apple can be perceived in various colours, sizes, and textures but it is still identified as an apple. Therefore, its primary qualities dictate what the object essentially is, while its secondary qualities define its attributes. Complex ideas combine simple ones, and divide into substances, modes, and relations. According to Locke, our knowledge of things is a perception of ideas that are in accordance or discordance with each other, which is very different from the quest for certainty of Descartes.

So it seems I was correct all along,,, when I said that Locke's ideologies came from the study of Plato's writings.... as the article goes on to explain.

Cognitive dissonance??? Really??? I think maybe I was getting a bit to close to the truth,,, and that's why you bugged out of here. Again,,, even though I have mentioned a lot of what I have studied... I haven't mentioned to what depth,,, or the fact that I am a quick study.

So I think I will go back to my previous original statement,,, about you studying the Empirical/Materialism thing that you accused Wrm of.

It appears that the only "red herring" here, (besides Don)... is you SD.

You're welcome Wrm.
 
Quote 04: `So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation.'

Absolutely wrong,04. There is one truth to Revelation.............NOT what WE think about it or `which interpretive approach' WE take, BUT what the Bible says about it.
The first chapter explains what it is and that it is presented in SIGNS from Jesus thru an angel to John.
Don't try to tell people that what THEY interpret makes a difference...............only the truth matters. don-ohio :)^)
 
You're right, Don!!!!

But when it comes right down to it, Revelation is obviously an allegory. Trying to interpret it as if it were a set of facts will, without doubt, carry you far astray.

You state that Revelation is made up of signs. Who, but the reader, is to do the interpretation? In fact, since it is an allegory, we CAN NOT be sure of the meanings. We simply don't have the knowledge to be sure of the meanings.

And to 04, you're right but I was sure that I'd get an answer approximating 144,000 if the right person answered.

KS
 
Quote Cammer:' We simply don't have the knowledge to be sure of the meanings.'

Of course we can get at the truth of Revelation's meanings if we refer to other Bible information and use discernment. Knowing that the horns of the wild beast are governments, that the first beast's death stroke was healed(when the League of Nations came to nothing at the time of WW II. Then the death stroke was healed (ergo the formation of the United Nations) and the beast was back.
The hurling of `death and hell' into the lake of fire? Means mankind's Adamic death is no more and the common grave of mankind is no more.
The SEA is peoples. The Harlot,Babylon the Great sits upon many waters(peoples). Just a few examples of Revelation's value to seekers of truth. don-ohio :)^)
God is a God of order, and Revelation has its own order. It was not presented to us as an unsolvable puzzle. don-ohio
 
Don, in some ways I love you like a brother. But surely you must see that your suggestions are just that---SUGGESTIONS. I could just as well conclude that everything you've mentioned had to do with the activities within a Little League ball game. Gulliver's Travels can easily enough be made out to refer to political activities. But, Revelation is so esoteric that the chance of a reader stumbling on a truth such that it would be accepted by all men is, in reality, nil.

KS
 
It doesn't have to nor will it EVER be accepted by all people,Cammer. But by putting older prophecies from Daniel and Ezekiel into the study of Revelation, a person can see that BEASTS picture gov'ts, and a time is 360 days or years in prophecy.
Did you ever ask yourself if the scorpions or locusts in revelation picture good or bad? How about ABADDON? So many wonderful things to apply to our day's events when you look for it. Just like the wild beast being the League of nations and then the UN. These things happened. They are still unfolding and making more sense to millions of people worldwide. don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don:

"Of course we can get at the truth of Revelation's meanings if we refer to other Bible information and use discernment."

Specifically what other Bible information are you talking about Don? Is there another book of reference... that gives additional knowledge to what the Bible says???

Answer this simple question Don:

Who is the woman in Revelation Chapter 12 ???
 
Quote Don:

"NOT what WE think about it or `which interpretive approach' WE take, BUT what the Bible says about it."

Don,

You make the perfect "case in point" by saying this... because as you have your own tenets of the religion that you follow... this leads you to your own interpretive approach... based on what YOU think the Bible says.

This is part of Wrm's point... and in this case I can't disagree with him.
 
Quote 04: `Answer this simple question Don:

Who is the woman in Revelation Chapter 12 ???

Answer: The woman in Revelation about to give birth is God's woman, His heavenly organization. The CHILD being born is the KINGDOM and the Devil wants to devour it right from the start. He failed,and God's KINGDOM was born. Jesus is now ruling the KINGDOM in the heavens and is doing what God said in Psalms.....`Go subduing in the midst of your enemies' .
This is in reference also to the four horsemen who started their ride circa 1914 when the world went crazy. The three horsemen pictured bad things to come.
BUT the fourth HORSEMAN is plainly Jesus by description,going forth to conquer and to COMPLETE his conquest. Jesus has been ruling since then in the midst of his enemies. don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don:

"Answer: The woman in Revelation about to give birth is God's woman, His heavenly organization."

Somehow I knew you would answer with that. However... that answer is slightly off. The woman is the the Jews, (Israel), thus the crown of 12 stars that signify the 12 tribes of Israel. So this part of Revelation is NOT in the "future tense".

On top of that,,, to verify that fact... the child who will rule all nations with an "iron rod"... is mentioned in Psalms 2:7-9.

Next question:

Do you believe that the Book of Revelation is told in "linear" event form? I.E. ,,,, Does the book of Revelation mention events in the order they actually happen?
 
Quote 04:' Next question:

Do you believe that the Book of Revelation is told in "linear" event form? I.E. ,,,, Does the book of Revelation mention events in the order they actually happen?

Answer: NO
Then to your belief that the Jews are favored: You said the woman( in truth God's heavenly organization) is the Jews? Not even close. THEY rejected Jesus and killed him. `You did not discern the hour of your being inspected' as Jesus told them and `LOOK! Your house (temple) is abandoned to you.'
don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don:

"Answer: NO"

Good... at least we agree on something.

Quote Don:

"Then to your belief that the Jews are favored"

Yes Don... because that's what the Bible says. first to Jew,,, then to Gentile. This was already discussed previously in this thread,,, and I told you to be careful what you say,,, or you might bring judgement on yourself.

Romans 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,e as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

It's even in your NWT

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/romans/1/

.+ 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news;+ it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith,+ to the Jew first+ and also to the Greek.+ 17 For in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by faith and for faith,+ just as it is written: “But the righteous one will live by reason of faith.”+
 
So let's focus on Revelation 12 a little bit more.

After the woman with a 12 starred crown is talked about... and a child she will have that rules with an iron rod... Revelation 12 talks about a great battle in Heaven where satan and a third of the angels are cast out and down to the earth.

This whole part of Revelation seems to fit with EVE and the serpent... and the whole "crush your head bite your heel" thing mentioned in Genesis Chapter 3.

However... since Revelation Capter 12 seems to be past events that happened... where does Revelation Chapter 9 fit in???
 
While I'm waiting on a response to my question in post #292... lets look a bit more at what the Bible says about salvation being offered to the Jews,,, and the rest of us being grafted in, (as I posteed many posts ago).

Romans 11:1-21

Israel Is Not Cast Away

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”


9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.

10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either


Now the NWT:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/romans/11/

11 I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he?+ By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring* of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.+ Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah,* they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.”*+ 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.”+ 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant+ according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness,+ it is no longer through works;+ otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness.

7 What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it.+ The rest had their senses dulled,+ 8 just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep,+ eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear, down to this very day.”+ 9 Also, David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 Let their eyes become darkened so that they cannot see, and always make them bend their backs.”+

11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy.+ 12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations,+ how much more will their full number mean!

13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations,+ I glorify* my ministry+ 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people* to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if their being cast away+ means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward* the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward* them,+ remember that it is not you who bears the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”+ 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,+ but you are standing by faith.+ Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Reads pretty much the same doesn't it Don???

So again... becareful what you say,,, because arrogance against the Jews could put you in a place you don't want to be. Not all Jews were unbelievers,,, but some practiced the pharisitical faith,,, rather than TRUE faith. We'll get into that difference as we talk about Revelation more.
 
The Jews Paul was trying to SAVE had to become CHRISTIANS,04. If they clung to the old religious teachings that rejected the Christ, they would NOT be accepted into the Christian fold.
You would do well,04 to remember that there was ONE faith that pleased God, and that was the ACCEPTANCE of His son as Lord and Savior.
Jesus said that at first,the disciples were to go continually to Israel, THEN to the Gentiles.
I've never said a Jewish Christian is rejected................they are as welcome as the Gentiles. But they are no longer, since Christ's death, God's CHOSEN people. ONLY SPIRITUAL Israelites,which include ALL races, will make up the 144,000 Kings and Priests of the heavenly class of Jesus' brothers. These will rule as Kings and Priests just as Revelation states.

don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote 04: `This whole part of Revelation seems to fit with EVE and the serpent... and the whole "crush your head bite your heel" thing mentioned in Genesis Chapter 3.

Actually no, this is not the crushing of the serpents head in God's prophecy Genesis. That takes place after the Devil is let loose after the thousand years of being imprisoned. The bruising of the heel was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead after his sacrificial death.

What part of Chap. 9 are you talking about?
don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don:

"The Jews Paul was trying to SAVE had to become CHRISTIANS,04. If they clung to the old religious teachings that rejected the Christ, they would NOT be accepted into the Christian fold.You would do well,04 to remember that there was ONE faith that pleased God, and that was the ACCEPTANCE of His son as Lord and Savior."

Well,,, your half right... but you need to AGAIN reconsider what happened the moment Jesus died on the cross. When the earthquake happened... tombs were opened. Also AGAIN read Hebrews,,, where it talks about believers from the Old testament that were saved by FAITH. Been down that road with you already. If you don't believe it to be true... then you will be very surprised one day.

Quote Don:

"But they are no longer, since Christ's death, God's CHOSEN people"

That is flat out HERESY on your part!!!

Deuteronomy 7:6-9

6“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7“The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9“Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Your NWT:

6 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God, and Jehovah your God has chosen you to become his people, his special property,* out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.+

7 “It was not because you were the most numerous of all the peoples that Jehovah showed affection for you and chose you,+ for you were the smallest of all the peoples.+ 8 Rather, it was because of Jehovah’s love for you and because he kept the oath that he had sworn to your forefathers+ that Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, to redeem you from the house of slavery,+ from the power* of Pharʹaoh king of Egypt. 9 You well know that Jehovah your God is the true God, the faithful God, keeping his covenant and loyal love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

You are startiing to make the JW's look very anti-Semitic. God's promise to the Jews is until the end of time as we know it. etter go back and read Revelation chapters 7 & 14.

NWT:

7 - 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+
5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed; out of the tribe of Reuʹben 12,000; out of the tribe of Gad 12,000; 6 out of the tribe of Ashʹer 12,000; out of the tribe of Naphʹta·li 12,000; out of the tribe of Ma·nasʹseh+ 12,000; 7 out of the tribe of Simʹe·on 12,000; out of the tribe of Leʹvi 12,000; out of the tribe of Isʹsa·char 12,000; 8 out of the tribe of Zebʹu·lun 12,000; out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000; out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.

14 - Then I saw, and look! the Lamb+ standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000+ who have his name and the name of his Father+ written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.+ These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.+ These were bought+ from among mankind as firstfruits+ to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.+
 
Quote Don:

"Actually no, this is not the crushing of the serpents head in God's prophecy Genesis. That takes place after the Devil is let loose after the thousand years of being imprisoned. The bruising of the heel was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead after his sacrificial death."

Yes Don... I'm aware of that. What I am saying is that the first part of Revelation 12,,, that talks about the woman and child... alludes to Genesis chaper 3,,, when God mentions the crush/ bruise thing. And yes... Both Rev 12 and Gen 3 point to Christ. You need to stop looking at Revelation as purely a futuristic Book... because it is not. It speaks of things past, and present, and future.

revelation -

1. information revealed: information that is newly disclosed, especially surprising, or valuable

3. disclosure: the revealing of something previously hidden or secret

Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
 
And to CLARIFY something else... the bruising of the heel,,, happened when Jesus died on the cross... and the crushing of satan's head happened when Jesus rose from the dead and redeemed all who have FAITH.
 
Quote Don:

"What part of Chap. 9 are you talking about?
don-ohio :)^)"

Your the one that brought up the locusts and scorpions. Soo.... I asked this:

"However... since Revelation Chapter 12 seems to be past events that happened... where does Revelation Chapter 9 fit in???"
 
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