ETC failsafe: P2107/P2106/P2105 - No misfire

Lincoln LS

  1. lincoln_zero

    lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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    Ran Seafoam last night. Car idles and hums nicely. Decided to Hail Mary it and installed the tune (after Seafoam). Car runs butter smooth. Took it out this morning for a spin, no misfire (according to Forscan) but ETC failsafe kicked in after some spirited driving, with those codes. ETC failsafe only kicks in when revving high. Does NOT happen on idle.

    (Note, I'm using the tune to coax out the failsafe).

    Any ideas? P2107 is Throttle body code. Bad plate motor? Bad position sensor?
     
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    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      Also, I did hear some sputter or slight pops in the exhaust on cold start. That is still there. Just no misfire from Forscan Mode 6 scan.
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      P2107 - Throttle Actuator Control Module Processor - Not really sure about this one's meaning. The processor is inside the PCM.

      P2106 - Throttle Actuator Control System - Forced Limited Power - This is just telling you what it is doing as a result of whatever problem there is, but not saying anything about the actual problem.

      P2105 - Throttle Actuator Control System - Forced Engine Shutdown - That's an interesting one.

      I don't think that any of these (unless it is P2107) really point to the problem for you...
       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      It's the only codes im getting. No misfire, doesn't make any sense for it to failsafe.

      I read this:
      "The PCM controls the Throttle Actuator Control System by monitoring one or more throttle position sensors. The operation of the throttle body is determined by the position of the throttle plate that is controlled by one or more Throttle Actuator Control Motors. The PCM also monitors the accelerator pedal position sensor to determine how fast the driver wants to go and then determines the appropriate throttle response. The PCM accomplishes this by a changing current flow to the Throttle Actuator Control Motor that moves the throttle plate to the desired position. Some malfunctions will cause the PCM to restrict the operation of the Throttle Actuator Control System. This is known as fail-safe or limp mode where the engine is held at idle or may not start at all."

      P2107 Throttle Actuator Control Module Processor

      So, possibly, the throttle body isn't allowing enough air into the system. I mean, my throttle body was in HORRID condition when I bought this car. It wouldn't even rev up in park with the pedal to the floor. It would sloooooowly creep up. After the cleaning, it revs up.

      So what id like to know is, where is the throttle position sensor? I have a used throttle body on hand I bought from scraps last year. Is the sensor in the throttle body?

      Could the throttle body plate be getting stuck? Could also maybe be the throttle body motor is failing. Or slow due to age/wear.
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      Well, it should set some specific codes for the TPS or the actuator (motor), but I guess never say never.
      There is one TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). See picture. There is one motor. See picture. The motor along with the gears and spring makes up the actuator.
      throttlebody.jpg

      Please note that the ETC is much more complicated than that paragraph says. For example, it also uses transmission gear selection, vehicle speed (from the ABS), engine RPM, and a few other inputs (in addition to those mentioned) to control throttle position.
       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      So then, I noticed work was done by previous owner on the throttle body. Not sure why there is glue on it, but it certainly looks like the previous owner had trouble with this. Either the plug itself, or the motor. Hard to tell with just glue all over the place. (unfortunately I did not know enough about this piece to see this as a Red flag when buying the car).

      Any thoughts on this?

      LS throttle body.jpeg

      LS thorttle body 2.jpeg

      View attachment 828574321

      LS throttle body 4.jpeg
       
    • AmsterDutch

      AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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      What too hell? That looks really sketchy ...If I found that on a LS I would replace the part for sure
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      Yeah, that same connector latch broke on both of mine. You don't get to disconnect too many times after it gets older. I fixed mine with zip ties. I think the zip ties look better than what he used, but I have definitely used that method on other connectors before. It works, and you can still disconnect it without doing further damage.

      Could've happened during a cooling system replacement.
       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      Found this. Apparently Ford has struggled with TP sensors. Not sure if thats F150 only issue. But I just found it interesting.

       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      So potentially nothing could be wrong with my throttle body, cause DTC's are sometimes tricked due to marginal cops, and it could be a sheer coincidence im getting throttle body DTC and the plug has glue on it.

      8 months ago, the mechanic who cleaned my throttle body said it was in bad shape , I panicked, and located a used one from a huge scrap yard ($150 CAD). After he cleaned it, misfires got so much better, and CEL was finally gone (stock tuning). I forgot to return the used throttle body, and its been in the garage ever since. So I might as well put it on.

      Anyways Joe, I went and read through dozens of old P2107 complaints here, and I learned that on every single one of them the throttle body was not the issue, it was in fact, Marginal coils - just as you have been saying. Even though I already did the friggin coils, but w/e maybe they're garbage quality.
      That said, I'm gonna order GOOD coils within reason of price. Like the Accels, or anything else someone here wants to recommend.

      If after throttle body and coils are done, this LS fail safes, I will return to stock, and sell it by the end of this year.

      My 3 BIG questions before I move forward here is this:
      1) When I do the throttle body, do I have to do a re-learn process?
      2) I did the coils 1 year ago, and sparks 8 months ago. When I re-do the coils, do I have to re-do the sparks together?

      And finally:
      3) Throughout this entire week of scanning, I moved coils between 6 and 5, and replaced the spark on cyl 6, still got a misfire. Why? If it were the marginal cops, wouldn't the other 7 cylinders be misfiring? (after I made this post today, I got 1 misfire on cyl 5). But I dont see 1/2/3/4/7/8 misfiring.

      Thanks so much for your help through this whole ordeal.
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      1. No.
      2. I would.
      3. Don't know.
       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      Ok.
      So throttle body repair first. Then when coils come in, im installing all 8 brand new NGK platinum plugs with the Accel coils. (I will reverse the terminal on the LS plugs, I read about that lol).

      Should I pull the battery?
       
    • AmsterDutch

      AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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      Throttle Position (TP) Sensor s6x~us~en~file=adobe.gif~gen~ref.gif Printable View (73 KB)
      [​IMG]
      Item Part Number Description
      1 14A464 Throttle position (TP) sensor electrical connector
      2 W707535 TP screws (2 required)
      3 9E928 TP sensor
      Removal

      1. Disconnect the battery ground cable. For additional information, refer to Section 414-01 .
      1. Remove the throttle body. For additional information, refer to Section 303-04 .
      1. s6x~us~en~file=ani_caut.gif~gen~ref.gif CAUTION: Failure to remove the TP sensor screws in the following manner will result in damage to the screws. First loosen the screws 1-2 full turns using a hand tool and then use a suitable high-speed driver to complete the removal.

        Remove and discard the 2 screws and the TP sensor.
      Installation

      1. s6x~us~en~file=ani_caut.gif~gen~ref.gif CAUTION: Do not reuse the TP sensor and screws. A new TP sensor and screws must be installed.

        s6x~us~en~file=ani_caut.gif~gen~ref.gif CAUTION: Do not use a high-speed driver to install the new screws or damage to the TP sensor can occur.

        NOTE: When installing the new TP sensor, make sure that the radial locator tab on the TP sensor is aligned with the radial locator hole on the throttle body.

        Position the TP sensor and install the 2 screws.
        • Tighten to 3 Nm (27 lb-in).
      1. Install the throttle body. For additional information, refer to Section 303-04 .
      1. Connect the battery ground cable. For additional information, refer to Section 414-01 .
      2. Throttle Body [​IMG] Printable View (134 KB)
        s6x~us~en~file=n0005345.gif~gen~ref.gif
        Item Part Number Description
        1 — Throttle position (TP) sensor electrical connector (part of 14A464)
        2 — Electronic throttle body motor electrical connector (part of 14A464)
        3 9F813 Throttle body heater inlet hose and clamp assembly
        4 9F914 Throttle body heater outlet hose and clamp assembly
        5 W503280 Throttle body bolt (4 required)
        6 9F991 Electronic throttle body
        7 9F809 Electronic throttle body gasket
        Removal and Installation

        s6x~us~en~file=ani_caut.gif~gen~ref.gif CAUTION: Throttle body bore and plate area have a special coating and cannot be cleaned, or possible damage to the throttle body can occur.

        NOTE: Only a small amount of coolant may be lost when disconnecting the throttle body heater inlet and outlet hose.
        1. s6x~us~en~file=ani_caut.gif~gen~ref.gif CAUTION: The engine appearance cover is equipped with a noise suppressor. If the noise suppressor becomes separated from the engine appearance cover it must be positioned on the intake manifold prior to installing the engine appearance cover.

          Remove the engine appearance cover and the noise suppressor (if detached).

        • [​IMG]
        1. Remove the air cleaner outlet pipe. For additional information, refer to Section 303-12 .
        1. Disconnect the throttle position (TP) sensor electrical connector from the TP sensor.
        1. Disconnect the electronic throttle body motor electrical connector from the electronic throttle body.
        1. Disconnect the throttle body heater inlet hose and clamp assembly from the electronic throttle body and position it aside.
        1. Disconnect the throttle body heater outlet hose and clamp assembly from the electronic throttle body and position it aside.
        1. Remove the 4 bolts and the electronic throttle body.
          • Remove and discard the intake manifold-to-electronic throttle body gasket.
          • To install, tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).
        1. To install, reverse the removal procedure.
          • Install a new intake manifold-to-electronic throttle body gasket.
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      No need.
       
    • 04_Sport_LS

      04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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      LZ,

      Since it only acts up with the tune... are you sure its not an injector issue... instead of a coil issue?
       
    • lincoln_zero

      lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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      It misfires with or without the tune. However, ONLY with the tune, it fail-safes. Without the Tune, I dont get any DTC's. After numerous scans and logging, the computer isn't telling me anything I don't already know. And that is, the motor is clearly misfiring.
      The motor misfires either due to: (1) Spark is weak or missed, (2) Not enough air is getting in, (3) not enough fuel is getting in, (4) or fuel and air are not mixing correctly in the cylinder.

      I've scoped the cylinder, and seafoamed it twice. No carbon deposits out of the unusual. That rules out #4
      I've had the throttle body cleaned, and the misfire is only on Bank 2. That rules out #2

      This leaves #1 and #3, which could be:
      Bad Injector
      Marginal Coils
      Bad Harness
      Damaged PCM

      I hate this so much. I've looked for clues, behavior, literally anything to pin point it. All I have, is:

      It misfires a bunch on cold start up, and during operating temp it may misfire once, and it only misfires at operating temp when RPM's are raised above 3000. And when it does misfire, with the tune on, it will go into failsafe and throw a throttle body DTC. Misfires are only on Bank 2.

      Thats it. Thats all I got to go on.
       
    • 04_Sport_LS

      04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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      Yeah... I remember this. You started a thread on this about a year ago... IIRC.

      Joe gave you a procedure to test the primary side of the coils... again IIRC.

      And IIRC... I said back then... that it seemed like the tune was over driving something on electrical of the coils or injectors... and playing games with the PCM.

      Maybe not in those exact words... but something close to that.
       
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      • 04_Sport_LS

        04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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        1 & 3 say fuel to me.

        2 & 4 seem unlikely... unless you have a mechanical issue with the engine... which again seems unlikely... unless you have valve float on that cylinder due to a weak valve spring.
         
      • 04_Sport_LS

        04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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        Here's another thought.

        Cyls 5 & 6 are the problem cylinders... more with 6.

        History of misfires from both at startup... worse on 6... especially with tune.

        How about a bad intake gasket on that side... or cracked intake flange.

        Check for a vacuum leak at manifold on cylinders 5 & 6???
         
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        • lincoln_zero

          lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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          Yeah, Life kicked in and I just basically drove it to get through the many winter cold work days. I don't have a garage myself to work in, and when it gets -20c here, its not ideal to work outside.
          I've got the time now to work on it, and decided I wanna try and fix this issue.
           
        • lincoln_zero

          lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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          Using Forscan, I ran vacuum tests, seemed to check out. Any other method I should use to check for the vacuum leak? I appreciate the patience, despite owning LS'es for 13 years, I'm still learning about this car. lol

          I can post back Forscan results if you'd like. Lemme know what I should look for.

          The car has 134,000kms (83k miles) is it common for a bad intake gasket at that range?
          That aside, If I were to pull this thing apart to replace those gaskets, I would be wise to do injectors, and then its more parts and labour, to which it seems I'm going down a rabbit hole which I cannot come out of.

          I'd like to think that the tune is "pushing" something hard and causing the failsafe. Otherwise, if it were a failed seal of some sort, or vacuum leak, I would get the failsafe with stock tuning. I could be wrong of course.

          Appreciate the suggestion. I think if the coils and plugs dont solve it, I maaaaay try and replace those 2 fuel injectors with some $47 bosch or w/e. If it still persists, I think I am calling it quits.
           
          Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
        • 04_Sport_LS

          04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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          Are you SURE that's the actual milage on the vehicle? Just by the hack job somebody did on the original throttle body, (the orange glue/silicone), it seems like somebody didn't know what they were doing... or it has more milage on it than the odometer shows.

          Other than the original coils failing... there really shouldn't have been any maintenance needed on the LS with the milage on the odometer.

          Do you still have the cheap SMP coils on it that you originally installed... or did you replace them already?

          Does the LS still have all the original factory cooling system parts... or are there signs of aftermarket cooling system parts on it?

          The reason I ask... is because I see no reason the throttle body would have been removed... other than cooling system work... and if that's the case the previous owner may have pulled the intake manifold to get to the the o-ring at the gooseneck, (behind the crossover pipe), where the gooseneck bolts to the top of the block.

          If that's the case... then the previous owner may have messed up the gasket or intake on the drivers side.

          I guess you could start with replacing the injectors on 5&6... and see what happens. I don't know if I would use Bosch though. The LS seems to be picky with some Bosch products. Might want to see if Rock Auto has OEM Motorcraft injectors in stock.
           
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          • AmsterDutch

            AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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            I couldn't agree more with your statement
             
          • lincoln_zero

            lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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            All great questions.
            Car came with Carfax showing Active Green and Ross repairs. I am the 3rd owner. Second guy got it at about 48k, and took it to that shop brand every 3 months. He did oil changes every 3 months, with on average 3000 kms on the oil. He didn't drive it very much, so it looks like the mileage is authentic. Would anyone have a reason to dial back an LS? They aren't exactly worth much with low miles anyways.

            I do still have the cheap Standard Coils on it. But I did swap them around with my old Delphi coils on cylinder 6 to see if the problem would go away. It hasn't.

            The Carfax showed coolant system repair (if I remember correctly) twice. Parts + flush from what I remember. I noticed upper rad hose did not have a motorcraft sticker on it when I replaced it recently, but then again do stock have stickers?

            Its possible the mechanics at Active Green and Ross messed it up. Who knows, honestly, the thought of throwing any more money at it makes me feel sick. I could be financing a decent used car with just parts cost alone. Keep in mind, I have done a lot of repairs on my own to avoid mechanic shops.

            Like its one thing to keep up with failing parts in a car.... its another thing to re-repair damage of what a previous, incompetent, careless worker did. What else did Active Green and Ross do to damage this car? I mean, my mechanic found frayed wires on my washer pump, and thats why that didn't work. And sure enough, Carfax shows Active Green and Ross worked on that too. That brand does not hire qualified people.

            Anyways, if coils and plugs dont fix, I dunno man. I aint spending $150 for an injector from Ford for guessing games. She doesn't failsafe when stock tune, so I guess if the coils and plugs dont work, and say i cant get injector for cheap, then stock she goes until I can afford to replace it.
             
          • lincoln_zero

            lincoln_zero Dedicated LVC Member

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            Yeah I dunno what exactly fails and when. But so far, in the 20 months I've had it (got it at 65k Miles, and I put 18k miles on it)

            Dash buttons (RESET / SETUP etc) clips broke. - Fixed
            Ash tray slider broke - Fixed
            Center console lift clip broke - Fixed (all these interior fixes, thanks to great tutorials I found on here).
            Thermostat failed - Fixed + new housing
            Upper rad hose cracked - Fixed
            Degause bottle cracked - Fixed
            Washer Pump failed and wire frayed - Fixed
            DCCV Failed and plug tip burned - Fixed + new harness from scraps
            Misfire - New coils and plugs, unresolved.

            Current issues:
            Water leak from wiper seal -unresolved.
            Water leak into door from sunroof -unresolved.
            DCCV failing again (used cheap aftermarket, learned the hard way) -unresolved.
            Misfire -unresolved.
            Noise from rear end when driving - unresolved.
            Bad squeek from rear end when you push down on car -unresolved.
             

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