Engine Swap Ideas and Possibilities

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VTOgre

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I know there have been many people asking about doing an engine swap in the LS and about all the problems it brings about. Mainly, there is the problem of two computers and how they cannot interact. For some time now I have wanted to do a complete rebuild of an LS including an engine and transmission swap. While I am still at least 2 years off from even considering doing this, I have started to think about it. Mainly about this very problem.

I am a computer and electrical engineer and have made interface circuitry for smaller systems before to control all sorts of things. I was wondering if I might be able to work on some type of interface between the LS's onboard PCM and whatever system comes with the new engine. To do this I simply need to know some of the specifics of what the PCM expects to see and I would essentially trick it into thinking everything is fine. In the mean time the proper control of the engine would be done by the other computer. If there is any shread of possibility in making this work, I am interested in taking it head on and developing this. If anyone knows anything, please let me know. I imagine this will probably take 1 or 2 years of development and testing and I am willing to go through with it.
 
Anything is possible with enough time and money - but not likely worth the effort.

The new PCM uses a data bus to communicate with several other systems within the LS - the FEM, REM, Traction, etc...

I too am an engineer - and this car is a real marvel of engineering - but makes it very had to modify or change.

Our best hope is that as more and more of the new Fords use this PCM, more and more opportunities will surface to bolt into it.
 
It's not like you HAVE to have advancetrak and all the other goodies on the car. You could throw a good V8 and trans in there to get it going. You will still have a car with a great chassis, which is really what makes the car.

The rest could be worked out later.
 
Why would you take a $45k car and drive around without dash gauges, abs and ac?
 
Quik LS said:
Why would you take a $45k car and drive around without dash gauges, abs and ac?
Click to expand...

I would not dream of doing something like that.
But I would happily hack on an 18K dollar three year old car with less than 12,000 miles on it (mine just went over 22k today, seven months after I got it)

unfortunately what would concern me more is two things.
Insuring that the airbag system would still be operational (since it interfaces with the pcm on startup.
and how do I get through the BS state inspection system that currently plugs into the obdII port and interrogates the PCM for an all clear code.
 
JES_LS said:
I would not dream of doing something like that.
But I would happily hack on an 18K dollar three year old car with less than 12,000 miles on it (mine just went over 22k today, seven months after I got it)

unfortunately what would concern me more is two things.
Insuring that the airbag system would still be operational (since it interfaces with the pcm on startup.
and how do I get through the BS state inspection system that currently plugs into the obdII port and interrogates the PCM for an all clear code.
Click to expand...

Just my own lil observation.... viewing your prior car history Im wondering why you even care about the airbags and I find it a il strange you are driving a V6. Not an insult but I find you a muscle man. V8 all the way!:)
 
I'm thinking you may be better off using the factory PCM and modifying the sensors and actuators to fit your new engine. You can always use an aftermarket tune to fine tune and adjust everything. But with this car, you are venturing into a lot of unknown territory. But I'm betting it can be done. Just look at Quik and his s/c effort.
 
Right - that would seem to be the better direction.

When some of the newer Ford engines that are using the new PCM become more obtainable (like the new Mustang) we should be able to swap and do more direct plug-in with 'like' sensors and the existing LS PCM.
 
Right on brother I am a cnc machinist and work around 6 engineers and that is what we were talking about but I think the original motor should be looked at also like a diamond in the rough because with that block and heads with 4 valves per., ported possibly to lower compression and polish and balance those are pretty good building blocks to start with, not to mention the free hp. with extreme fine tuning........, LOOKOUT! Don't brake till you see God!

:slam :steering :slam
 
You guys are totally forgeting the Explorer 4.6! Not only does the 2002+ Explorers have the 4.6 SOHC from the 99-04 Mustang GT but they also have an aluminum block which would aid in the handling characteristics of the car once the swap was complete. The Lincoln LS, 02+ Explorer, 04+ F-150, and 05 Mustang all have the same computer and also work with the 5R55W, N, S tranny too. I am quite suprised that there hasnt been anyone that swapped in an explorer engine already with all this engine swap talk for LS's. I offer this as not only a cheaper but more viable swap alternative to the 05 3V 4.6 which has bigger heads and may not be able to fit into the engine bay as easily.
 
Dartastic said:
Just my own lil observation.... viewing your prior car history Im wondering why you even care about the airbags and I find it a il strange you are driving a V6. Not an insult but I find you a muscle man. V8 all the way!:)
Click to expand...
No insult taken, You are correct, I do like muscle, but muscle that I can control.
first the manual in what is pretty much the wife's LS, then the 3.9v8 with manual project begins. Until then I have a 96 gt with an 04 motor to drive most mon-friday's.
As for the airbags, I had one save my life back in 96, so I believe in them.
 
Ok, essentially I was looking at doing the interfaces needed to have the sensors still work properly and integrate into the original PCM. The whole point is that as far as the PCM goes, it will be reading everything as normal and be able to spit that right back out. The guages would be reading what comes from the engine so that would be fine to. There is no reason to mess with any of the sensors for things such as the airbag. Everything that wouldn't be modified would essentially just be passed straight through to the PCM as if nothing were wrong. What the interface would take care of sorting through the information and manipulating it so that the PCM would not read it as a problem and report is as such. Think of it as a middleman that simply makes both parties happy. I am very serious about this and want to pre-empt any of theses future 'opprotunities'. I figure that if it's not here now, then lets just make it and stop waiting.
 
Ok, so let's take this one step at a time. Why exactly do the guages no longer work with a new engine? The only reason I could see is that the speed sensors no longer are routed to the PCM. If this is the case, why is it so? If everything is passed to the PCM in a bus and there is no way to tap into this bus, then I can ingest the bus and any sensor data and then re-output the bus straight to the PCM with the new data added in. This is very easy.

If we can step through this slowly, I do not see any reason to not make this happen. All I need is everyone's insight here as I am the first to admit I am a novice when it comes to car repair. However, I am not a novice at computer and electronics systems which I why I believe that together we can make this happen.
 
rocket5979 said:
You guys are totally forgeting the Explorer 4.6! Not only does the 2002+ Explorers have the 4.6 SOHC from the 99-04 Mustang GT but they also have an aluminum block which would aid in the handling characteristics of the car once the swap was complete. The Lincoln LS, 02+ Explorer, 04+ F-150, and 05 Mustang all have the same computer and also work with the 5R55W, N, S tranny too. I am quite suprised that there hasnt been anyone that swapped in an explorer engine already with all this engine swap talk for LS's. I offer this as not only a cheaper but more viable swap alternative to the 05 3V 4.6 which has bigger heads and may not be able to fit into the engine bay as easily.
Click to expand...

My question is why would you want to go to all the trouble of swapping in an engine with minimal performance gains over what you have with our V8? Although you do bring up some interesting possibilities. It's very possible a wiring harness, sensors, etc from an Explorer could be used. I believe the Aviator has the same computer too doesn't it? Now, that is a 32V with some HUGE potential! But making it fit could be a real PIA. That's why those motors aren't in the car from the factory.

VTO...once you get the interfaces right, your next problem will be programming the computer to handle the different requirements. Plus, the dash, tranny, etc are all integrated, so that would have to be dealt with too. The new Mustang is giving tuners fits. One obstacle is the drive by wire. But they are making progress! Diablo seems to be ahead of the curve on this one, but SCT has had some success with the car too. But there is literally thousands of pages of code that need to be dealt with so it's not an easy task by any means. Then, they need to get it out in the field so their tuners can make the corrections they need to when the car is on a dyno.

I think what you are attempting is very doable. But you need to be careful not to OVER engineer the project....and I'm not so sure you may want to wait a few months or so and wait for the aftermarket tuners to catch up. That may save you some serious headaches.
 
Has anyone considered just going with an aftermarket engine controller?

Or are the newer cars so integrated that even the gauges are controlled by the ECM?

I see where you said that the "dash, tranny..." is integrated. By that, do you mean gauges, or just the Idiot Lights?
 
Using FAST or equivelant is a great idea....except that this car uses the PCM for so damned many functions that I don't think it will retain all those.
 
well, could you use to ecu's, one for the engine/transmission and leave the stock one for everything else, would that be doable?
 
daves2000ls said:
well, could you use to ecu's, one for the engine/transmission and leave the stock one for everything else, would that be doable?
Click to expand...
That's what TeamLS (the group of Lincoln engineers who built the LS used in the One Lap of America) did. They had the LS's computers controlling the LS parts, then the PCM for the 4.6 controlling the engine (and tranny?).

From what I've read, it was an incredibly complicated and difficult task, and this was for the guys who designed the bloody car!
 
well, would it be simpler to use one computer for everything
 
nope - if it was only a race car then sure - but if you do not have all the systems on the same bus - the car is not a daily driver. The speedo, tach, dash gauges aren't talking to the engine/trannie, the SRS system would be totally messed, ...etc
 
well guys i think if both VTOgre and Quick LS really sit down and just take care of one problem at a time i think its doable or atleast we will have a better understanding of how LONG is going to take if you guys decide to go for it -- hey if you guys figure it out - im getting the next prototype so im saving my money now ---lol
 
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