Decision Time

[stugots]

They were replaced right by a Lincoln dealer before I bought mine, was dinging the fact that the car runs an 8 coil system and they don't last 100K miles when other makes go better than 100K miles with single coil systems. On a multicoil system the coils should go a minimum of 300K miles, since they only fire 1/8 as often. The LS coils fail way too often, and when they fail they are known to take the PCM with it, which IMO is another WTF moment with this car.

I would say PCM damage is extreme and only if you drive with marginal coils for a while. While I agree they fail too often, mine have lasted 40k miles and counting. If you look at other cars, they seem to have similar problems. It's like they are designed to fail at 100k miles.

At least we don't have an S-class which has $1500(per) coil packs (2), not including labor and the price to use a special Mercedes computer to get them to work.

 

[Elemino]

What in the world is the dither regarding replacing coils every once in a while? It used to be that a 'tune-up' was necessary to replace the plugs, the distributor cap, the points, the rotor, and the condenser. This was necessary about every ten thousand miles and if you put it off 'til fifteen thousand the performance and the mileage were both degraded. I've replaced my COPs once, at about 100K. I put in ACCELs. In the near future I'll put in a set of Coyote-type coils (They haven't arrived yet.)

EVERY CAR REQUIRES SOME DEGREE OF MAINTENANCE!

KS

I've already replaced the coils once with the Visteon packs, and we've only put about 15,000 miles on the car since I bought it.

The tranny can be fixed.

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?80761-5R55-Repairs

The AC is probably a bad fill valve.

The A/C line near the compressor is leaking. I know because there is dye on the hose, and it isn't coming from the fill valve. I can't really see up there to figure out where it's coming from though.

They were replaced right by a Lincoln dealer before I bought mine, was dinging the fact that the car runs an 8 coil system and they don't last 100K miles when other makes go better than 100K miles with single coil systems. On a multicoil system the coils should go a minimum of 300K miles, since they only fire 1/8 as often. The LS coils fail way too often, and when they fail they are known to take the PCM with it, which IMO is another WTF moment with this car.

Cammerfe was making a point of "what's the big deal?"

My Navigator has never needed a single coil replaced, that's what. It uses COPs too, although they are a different model. I can't imagine there's too much to a COP, but these failing so often is just annoying.

 

[Rogyates]

Can anyone explain why the LS coils (including OEM) fail prematurely? I have a '05 Escape 3.0L V6 that just blew it's first coil at 196,000 miles. My guess is it is the heat.....maybe I should cut some slots in the plastic coil covers for ventilation. The Escape coils are "out in the open".

 

[joegr]

Can anyone explain why the LS coils (including OEM) fail prematurely? I have a '05 Escape 3.0L V6 that just blew it's first coil at 196,000 miles. My guess is it is the heat.....maybe I should cut some slots in the plastic coil covers for ventilation. The Escape coils are "out in the open".

No, I can't explain it. I can tell you that the LS is far from the only car with COP problems. It does seem to be an issue more often with high performance cars. I suspect that if the LS were still in production, they would probably have solved it by now.

 

[Elemino]

Like most things that fail commonly on this car, probably poorly designed, or designed great and made cheaply. Assuming COPs are simply using the basic hall effect, it's nothing but a transformer. (One coil inducing a charge in another coil using a magnetic field)... That would mean one of the coils of wire is either burning itself up, or something causes the internal resistance to change so much it's no longer effective.

 

[joegr]

The ignition coil is basically just an autotransformer.
Ford says that the most frequent failure on our coils is a high voltage breakdown of the epoxy. This seems to consistent with the "failures" that I have seen (I say "failure" because the coil doesn't fail completely, it becomes marginal. In this case, marginal means that the output voltage is reduced sometimes.) It seems that the epoxy that the coils are potted with starts to fail over time. Maybe due to temperature, maybe due to vibration, maybe due to the high voltages, maybe something else. As the epoxy fails, it no longer serves as a high voltage insulator and arcs can happen internal to the coil. When they do, this takes away energy from the spark plug. The coil resistance doesn't change, so you can't detect it that way. The only practical way to test is to operate the coil and look at the primary waveform with a scope. (Problems with the secondary will show on the primary side as well.)

Here's Ford's statement on it:

"Some of the vehicles may experience an engine misfire condition predominantly due to internal
breakdown in the coil and lack of adhesion between the epoxy and the coil housing material.
These issues may cause the coil to operate at an insufficient voltage level, resulting in ignition coil
misfires. In addition, the valve cover gaskets may allow engine oil to enter the spark plug well and
cause degradation of the ignition coil boot, resulting in ignition coil misfire."

 

[Robot]

Can anyone explain why the LS coils (including OEM) fail prematurely? I have a '05 Escape 3.0L V6 that just blew it's first coil at 196,000 miles. My guess is it is the heat.....maybe I should cut some slots in the plastic coil covers for ventilation. The Escape coils are "out in the open".

There are many cars (Ford) that have coil problems. The reason why our cars seem to have more problems is due to the fact we are enthusiasts. We are conditioned to listen and feel for misfires and rough running. Most drivers don't care about that stuff. That's what makes us special. Also, with such high compression ratios and the need to run high octane fuel, I would suspect we would be more prone to have a condition of the mixture not combusting unlike cars that use lower octane. I hear Ford Crown Vic Police units missing and running rough all the time.

 

[Telco]

There are many cars (Ford) that have coil problems. The reason why our cars seem to have more problems is due to the fact we are enthusiasts. We are conditioned to listen and feel for misfires and rough running. Most drivers don't care about that stuff. That's what makes us special. Also, with such high compression ratios and the need to run high octane fuel, I would suspect we would be more prone to have a condition of the mixture not combusting unlike cars that use lower octane. I hear Ford Crown Vic Police units missing and running rough all the time.

Yes, but no. The problem is not that the car is a high performance car because it is not. It does well for what it was in its time but even then was nothing more than a spirited ride. The main problem here is Ford makes crap coils, and there's no being conditioned to feel this stuff before other people would. When the cars start to misfire it's very obvious and it doesn't take long for the misfires to destroy other components on the car. GM coils, amongst other makes, do not fail like LS coils (and I suppose Ford coils in general based on this thread) do. The Corvette is a high performance, high compression car and does not have coil failures. Incidentally, compression has nothing to do with coil longevity. My truck uses the same coil design and they have almost 300K miles on them with no failures. They are currently on their third engine, for that matter (although by rights it should only have been the second engine, DAMN HUNT ENGINES IN FORT SMITH ARKANSAS!!!!) and are still going strong with no sign of a misfire.

Really, if I were going to keep my LS I'd be investigating what it would take to use the GM coils on the LS and that includes building the custom bracketry that would be needed in preparation for the inevitable coil failure. I haven't looked into the wiring, but the hardware is easy enough. The Chevy LS coil would require the use of actual spark plug wires. For this, you would want a set of overhead cam plug wires similar to the ones used on the Corolla, where the wires go straight in and have a rubber plug to seal against water. Use a hole saw to drill 4 holes in the existing LS coil cover that will allow the plug wire seals to plug the holes. Building brackets that can be bolted to the engine are easy enough to make. I don't know how the LS connects up to its coils, but on the Chevy it uses a single plug on each side of the engine to connect to a mini-harness for the coils on that side. The correct wire terminals and plugs are easily available on the internet.

Even if the LS coil were electrically incompatible, the same process could be used to add any compatible coil. In fact, the same process could possibly be used to mount stock LS coils outside the coil cover since it's possible that the coils being under those covers is causing the coils to run hotter than they should be which may be contributing to their poor durability. Using stock LS coils would solve the wiring issue as well, since there wouldn't be one. I can't imagine there would be a problem with the coils not being under a cover but if being exposed to the elements is a problem they can probably be sealed.

Picture of the LS brackets and wiring harness

Coils on the engine

 

[Robot]

I will have to say the main problem is the fact the coils are covered and hold in the heat. I still maintain most drivers just don't notice their cars misfiring because I drove taxi cabs and I seemed to be the only one that noticed the problems. Maybe it's just me.

 

[eots44]

I will have to say the main problem is the fact the coils are covered and hold in the heat. I still maintain most drivers just don't notice their cars misfiring because I drove taxi cabs and I seemed to be the only one that noticed the problems. Maybe it's just me.

Wouldn't people notice the check engine light being on?

 

[joegr]

Wouldn't people notice the check engine light being on?

Marginal coils often don't misfire badly enough to trigger a check engine light.

 

[eots44]

Marginal coils often don't misfire badly enough to trigger a check engine light.

Oh ok that would make sense, I had a misfire a couple of months ago and my check engine light was on, then again, it was pretty violent and noticeable. Lol

 

[Telco]

I will have to say the main problem is the fact the coils are covered and hold in the heat.

Very logical, but as I understand it the Exploders have the same problem? Hearsay for me. If the Exploders do have the same issue, are their coils also under a cover? On the other hand, GM covers the coils on their car engines and still they do not fail at the drop of a hat. If the Exploders also have bad coils that are exposed, this would point towards Ford just having bad coils. Unfortunately the design of the LS engine requires the covers to avoid shorting the plugs when it rains so you can't just leave them off but the project I outlines would solve that issue. The LS coils might last longer if they were mounted outside the covers.

I still maintain most drivers just don't notice their cars misfiring because I drove taxi cabs and I seemed to be the only one that noticed the problems. Maybe it's just me.

I wouldn't count people not commenting on taxi cabs. Taxi customers don't care about mechanical issues with the cab, so long as the cab gets them to their destination. If the cab breaks down, they know the cabbie will call out a new cab for them. Not to mention that most cabbies don't care even if you do tell them. Was in Las Vegas a few years back and did a helicopter ride to the Grand Canyon. The copter company picked us up in a limo. The limo that came for us had a loose carrier bearing mount and was banging along like mad. Mentioned it to the limo driver and he actually told me that it was normal for the drive shaft to bang the trans tunnel. What can you do, eh?

 

[joegr]

Just another example:
My 325i has the coils covered too. So far I haven't had any problem with them, and my understanding is that they are not a common problem point. It is also my understanding that they used to be, but BMW did a redesign that corrected the issue(s). The coils are probably twice as big ad the LS coils, and the metal core of the coils is exposed and surrounds the coils (like most transformers). The metal part of each coil is also grounded.

 

[Robot]

Marginal coils often don't misfire badly enough to trigger a check engine light.

True

 

[Robot]

Wouldn't people notice the check engine light being on?

Most of the taxi cabs I drove did have the cel but the mechanics just ignored them because the owners told them if the light wasn't red not to worry about it.

 

[Robot]

Very logical, but as I understand it the Exploders have the same problem? Hearsay for me. If the Exploders do have the same issue, are their coils also under a cover? On the other hand, GM covers the coils on their car engines and still they do not fail at the drop of a hat. If the Exploders also have bad coils that are exposed, this would point towards Ford just having bad coils. Unfortunately the design of the LS engine requires the covers to avoid shorting the plugs when it rains so you can't just leave them off but the project I outlines would solve that issue. The LS coils might last longer if they were mounted outside the covers.



I wouldn't count people not commenting on taxi cabs. Taxi customers don't care about mechanical issues with the cab, so long as the cab gets them to their destination. If the cab breaks down, they know the cabbie will call out a new cab for them. Not to mention that most cabbies don't care even if you do tell them. Was in Las Vegas a few years back and did a helicopter ride to the Grand Canyon. The copter company picked us up in a limo. The limo that came for us had a loose carrier bearing mount and was banging along like mad. Mentioned it to the limo driver and he actually told me that it was normal for the drive shaft to bang the trans tunnel. What can you do, eh?

I wasn't talking about the riders. I was talking about the drivers noticing.

 

[eots44]

Most of the taxi cabs I drove did have the cel but the mechanics just ignored them because the owners told them if the light wasn't red not to worry about it.

Lol that would make sense as well, ignore issues and make as much money as possible before they turn into serious concerns, yup that sounds like business to me.

 

[Telco]

I wasn't talking about the riders. I was talking about the drivers noticing.

Same difference. If it's not their personal pride and joy, they don't care.

 

[Robot]

Same difference. If it's not their personal pride and joy, they don't care.

That's the way it seems. Unfortunately they think the same way about things like shocks, abs, and traction control. DANGEROUS!

 

[Elemino]

The main problem here is Ford makes crap coils ... GM coils, amongst other makes, do not fail like LS coils (and I suppose Ford coils in general based on this thread) do.

Very logical, but as I understand it the Exploders have the same problem? Hearsay for me. If the Exploders do have the same issue, are their coils also under a cover? On the other hand, GM covers the coils on their car engines and still they do not fail at the drop of a hat. If the Exploders also have bad coils that are exposed, this would point towards Ford just having bad coils.

I've never heard of this being a problem on the explorer, and it wouldn't be related to this anyway as the Explorer doesn't use the same engine. Also, it's not a Ford problem, it's a jaguar problem (and jaguar engineering) that caused the issues. My Navigator is 2 years newer, but it has had zero problems with the coils. My dad's 2000 Crown vic used COPs as well, and it had zero problems with them. It's not a common issue on any of the Ford modular V8s, only the vehicles that use the Jaguar developed engine.

Update 4-8-2015

The LS has been at the shop since Friday before last, though he didn't start working on it until last Monday. He's been having issues even after making the repairs to the transmission. Today he finally called, and said he's determined the issue is the computer... joy :woowoo2::Bang... So $2400 for the transmission and now whatever this computer replacement is going to cost.

 

[jjcool00]

now whatever this computer replacement is going to cost.

PCM's can no longer be had. I had a dealer check all dealers inventory and none were in stock, so good luck. I think they were "back ordered" 7 months last I checked. Best bet would be to send it off to SIA Electronics and get it rebuilt for $170. I had it done and it works perfectly, others are also having it done.

 

[Elemino]

PCM's can no longer be had. I had a dealer check all dealers inventory and none were in stock, so good luck. I think they were "back ordered" 7 months last I checked. Best bet would be to send it off to SIA Electronics and get it rebuilt for $170. I had it done and it works perfectly, others are also having it done.

I'm not surprised. He said he will call me back with his options. He doesn't want to let the car go without the transmission working properly because he gives a warranty. I guess I chose the wrong path, I should have sold the car...

 

[jjcool00]

I'm not surprised. He said he will call me back with his options. He doesn't want to let the car go without the transmission working properly because he gives a warranty. I guess I chose the wrong path, I should have sold the car...

You know, it's funny because everyone on here is very quick to diagnose the issues relating to the transmission (any maybe that's the issue the majority of the time) but when I talked to the transmission specialist I worked with in NJ - he had been doing specifically ford transmissions for 30 years - he said that with the LS it's usually the PCM and not the transmission. Wish I would've known that before I rebuilt my transmission - like you. But now, I was with a rebuilt transmission and the rebuilt PCM my car runs better now than it did the day I bought it 4 years ago.

Apparently the 2003 - 2004 are notorious for having PCM related transmission issues, and the rebuild is so cheap of the PCM it's almost always better to go that route first, before rebuilding the trans.

 

[Elemino]

Well my transmission had a few problems, but I bet it wouldn't have been a bad with a new PCM.

This mess has got me depressed, I may cut my losses either way now. I just need to walk away.