Darwin's False Religion

DLS8K said:
I don't believe in God and I am not going to be close-minded about it. I believe there MAY be a higher power involved, however, what is depicted in the Bible is something I dont subscribe to.
The Bible has no more merit than any scientific study regarding the creation of the Universe......it is an opinion that cannot be proven. I am not going to sit here and say I know the answers to the creation because that would be close-minded and lacking common sense.
You can condemn me to the hell that you believe in but that would not be Christian of you. You can say that God doesn't need to prove his power to have it be known (familiar lesson in the Bible) and I would say that I don't need to prove evolution or science to you because even if I can't prove it doesn't mean it didn't happen/will happen/is happening. I could say you just have to believe..........but I won't.
So what higher power would you subscribe to then? You just admitted there is probably a God, yet you don't want to acknowledge that the God of the Bible is the God you're thinking of. Which one then? Allah? Buddha? Trust me, friend, you'd be better off with my God than any other one out there, especially since He has a personal interest in you.

You say that it would not be Christian of me to "condemn you to hell." Since you don't believe in God or the Bible, who are you to tell me what is or is not Christian behavior? You would be the last person to have any credibility on the subject. I understand that you don't want to believe in God. That is your privilege and right as an American, and I am not going to try to force you to do so. Obviously you are not open to any ideas concerning God, or you'd be asking questions instead of dodging the information I present.

So let's just leave it at this: The Bible clearly says that those who do not repent and believe on Christ will burn in the lake of fire. That's not me saying that. That's the Bible. Choose to believe that it's false, and roll the dice and take your chances hoping you're right. But if you're not..it's as simple as that.

Deville:

Your attempt to explain away the leviathan in the Bible runs into too many problems. First of all, you don't know enough about the Bible to understand when and if it is being literal or figurative. You simply don't have the background. Furthermore, if you go back and reread your post it sounds almost desperate in its attempt to shy away from the real, multiple accounts describing the creature. It's also interesting that YOU mentioned the word "brontosaur" and yet the Bible doesn't. Seems like you know the truth and are trying to deny it. You also don't know your dinosaurs. Ever heard of the Plesiosaur? Go look it up.

You say it's a large animal, but metaphorically described? Sure, ok, I'll bite. Which animal currently inhabiting the sea can be compared to a dragon or a large serpent? Hmm?

You also ignored the behemoth description in your rant.
 
fossten said:
So what higher power would you subscribe to then? You just admitted there is probably a God, yet you don't want to acknowledge that the God of the Bible is the God you're thinking of. Which one then? Allah? Buddha? Trust me, friend, you'd be better off with my God than any other one out there, especially since He has a personal interest in you.

You say that it would not be Christian of me to "condemn you to hell." Since you don't believe in God or the Bible, who are you to tell me what is or is not Christian behavior? You would be the last person to have any credibility on the subject. I understand that you don't want to believe in God. That is your privilege and right as an American, and I am not going to try to force you to do so. Obviously you are not open to any ideas concerning God, or you'd be asking questions instead of dodging the information I present.

So let's just leave it at this: The Bible clearly says that those who do not repent and believe on Christ will burn in the lake of fire. That's not me saying that. That's the Bible. Choose to believe that it's false, and roll the dice and take your chances hoping you're right. But if you're not..it's as simple as that.

Deville:

Your attempt to explain away the leviathan in the Bible runs into too many problems. First of all, you don't know enough about the Bible to understand when and if it is being literal or figurative. You simply don't have the background. Furthermore, if you go back and reread your post it sounds almost desperate in its attempt to shy away from the real, multiple accounts describing the creature. It's also interesting that YOU mentioned the word "brontosaur" and yet the Bible doesn't. Seems like you know the truth and are trying to deny it. You also don't know your dinosaurs. Ever heard of the Plesiosaur? Go look it up.

You say it's a large animal, but metaphorically described? Sure, ok, I'll bite. Which animal currently inhabiting the sea can be compared to a dragon or a large serpent? Hmm?

You also ignored the behemoth description in your rant.
I'll take my chances on burning in the "afterlife." And the reason I don't ask questions is because I've heard all the answers before......I went to church every Sunday until I moved to college. I don't buy them because they rely so much on fear. If you engage in pre-marital sex you are going to hell. If you take the Lord's name in vein, you are going to hell. If you do anything that goes against the Bible, you are going to hell.
And then there is you.......using the same scare tactics. That is the only weapon your religions can use and it works on some because they are of weak mind. You depict a utopic heaven and eternal afterlife and people don't fear death anymore......they have no fear of the unknown and that comforts them. You depict an eternal hell and that scares people into believing religion.
The same applies to all your theories on the beginning of the universe. People are afraid of what they do not know or cannot comprehend and religion offers them an answer that is comforting.....the only problem is that scare tactics are used to accomplish this. It is no different than indoctrination that you claim occurs in the educational system of this country.
 
fossten said:
Deville:

Your attempt to explain away the leviathan in the Bible runs into too many problems. First of all, you don't know enough about the Bible to understand when and if it is being literal or figurative. You simply don't have the background. Furthermore, if you go back and reread your post it sounds almost desperate in its attempt to shy away from the real, multiple accounts describing the creature. It's also interesting that YOU mentioned the word "brontosaur" and yet the Bible doesn't. Seems like you know the truth and are trying to deny it. You also don't know your dinosaurs. Ever heard of the Plesiosaur? Go look it up.

You say it's a large animal, but metaphorically described? Sure, ok, I'll bite. Which animal currently inhabiting the sea can be compared to a dragon or a large serpent? Hmm?

You also ignored the behemoth description in your rant.

I agree that I cannot say without a doubt when the Bible is being literal or figurative; who can though for certain, you? I was using logic when saying that the leviathan mention is most likely a metaphor for some formidable task or challenge as it mentions God slaying and overcoming the "leviathan". Not sure how I am 'shying away' by stating that metaphors exist in the Bible?
Well it describes a large animal in metaphors, we were talking about the possibility of dinosaurs in the Bible and the Brontosaur would be a close fit to Job 40:15-24, that's why I brought it up. Plesiosaurs were aquatic and carnivorous; they wouldn't fit as well as the brontosaur in the "behemoth" metaphoric description.

Yes, it would indeed be large if it can "drink a river" metaphorically speaking, I don't think the behemoth passage is describing a sea creature as it "eats grass like an ox", the leviathan is more of a sea creature.

I didn't, my Brontosaur "rant" as you call it was aimed at the "behemoth" passage.
 
95DevilleNS said:
I agree that I cannot say without a doubt when the Bible is being literal or figurative; who can though for certain, you? I was using logic when saying that the leviathan mention is most likely a metaphor for some formidable task or challenge as it mentions God slaying and overcoming the "leviathan". Not sure how I am 'shying away' by stating that metaphors exist in the Bible?
Well it describes a large animal in metaphors, we were talking about the possibility of dinosaurs in the Bible and the Brontosaur would be a close fit to Job 40:15-24, that's why I brought it up. Plesiosaurs were aquatic and carnivorous; they wouldn't fit as well as the brontosaur in the "behemoth" metaphoric description.

Yes, it would indeed be large if it can "drink a river" metaphorically speaking, I don't think the behemoth passage is describing a sea creature as it "eats grass like an ox", the leviathan is more of a sea creature.

I didn't, my Brontosaur "rant" as you call it was aimed at the "behemoth" passage.

All right. Here's my best shot at helping you understand this. First of all, behemoth and leviathan are two different types of creatures.

The first mention in Job is of behemoth. It is verse 15 of ch. 40. God is speaking, and if you look at the context before the verse, he is illustrating to Job just how small he is compared to God, and how ridiculous it is to contemplate Job telling God what to do. To understand the purpose of this chapter, though, you would have to go back and read the entire book, since this is the end. I don't think you want to do that, so can we start from here and take this for the sake of the argument?

Okay. Verse 15 says "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee..." God is using an example of a large creature for Job to compare himself with. "...he eateth grass as an ox." Indicates this is likely a four-legged animal which eats grass and is probably, as we will see from later passages, larger than an ox. Also, the "drink a river" reference, as you put it, was misquoted by you. It actually says (verse 23) "...he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth." Taken as a whole, the verse isn't emphasizing that the beast can drink a whole river; in fact, it doesn't even say that. It is saying that the behemoth can bend over the river and drink it up without being in a hurry or concerned about anything attacking him, even if he drinks the whole thing. That paints a picture of a very immense, powerful beast that most others would avoid. It doesn't have to be a dinosaur, but it is likely that it is.

Clearly the last few verses of chapter 40 indicate a land beast, as well, pointing out that he lies in the shade of trees and reeds by the brook, although it could be amphibious. Clearly this is a different creature than leviathan, which God introduces in the very next chapter. The context around behemoth arguably indicates a real beast being used as an allegorical example for God to teach Job a lesson. If God were being figurative in order to prove a point, and a beast like that didn't exist, the example of behemoth wouldn't make any sense to Job, and God wouldn't waste His time doing that.

Now on to leviathan.

Since the conversation in chapter 41 continues without a break from chp 40, it is extremely likely, even certain, that God is still being literal and not figurative. Furthermore, God describes leviathan in a very thorough way, making more than one reference to the type of scales it has and how they fit together on the creature's body, and calling it a serpent and a dragon. It is also clear that leviathan is distinctly different from behemoth. Even the two words have different meanings.

Now look at verse 10. This is the clincher - it sums up the entire conversation and proves that this is allegorical yet literal, designed to put Job in his place. "None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?" In other words, "This is the most fearsome creature in the sea, and I created it, so how much more powerful am I?"

Finally, Psalms mentions leviathan, and clearly states that God created leviathan and put him in the sea:

Psalms 104:25,26: "O Lord, how manifold thy works, in wisdom you have created them all. So is this great and wide sea... there go the ships and the Leviathan which you have created to play therein."
 
fossten said:
All right. Here's my best shot at helping you understand this. First of all, behemoth and leviathan are two different types of creatures.

The first mention in Job is of behemoth. It is verse 15 of ch. 40. God is speaking, and if you look at the context before the verse, he is illustrating to Job just how small he is compared to God, and how ridiculous it is to contemplate Job telling God what to do. To understand the purpose of this chapter, though, you would have to go back and read the entire book, since this is the end. I don't think you want to do that, so can we start from here and take this for the sake of the argument?

Okay. Verse 15 says "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee..." God is using an example of a large creature for Job to compare himself with. "...he eateth grass as an ox." Indicates this is likely a four-legged animal which eats grass and is probably, as we will see from later passages, larger than an ox. Also, the "drink a river" reference, as you put it, was misquoted by you. It actually says (verse 23) "...he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth." Taken as a whole, the verse isn't emphasizing that the beast can drink a whole river; in fact, it doesn't even say that. It is saying that the behemoth can bend over the river and drink it up without being in a hurry or concerned about anything attacking him, even if he drinks the whole thing. That paints a picture of a very immense, powerful beast that most others would avoid. It doesn't have to be a dinosaur, but it is likely that it is.

Clearly the last few verses of chapter 40 indicate a land beast, as well, pointing out that he lies in the shade of trees and reeds by the brook, although it could be amphibious. Clearly this is a different creature than leviathan, which God introduces in the very next chapter. The context around behemoth arguably indicates a real beast being used as an allegorical example for God to teach Job a lesson. If God were being figurative in order to prove a point, and a beast like that didn't exist, the example of behemoth wouldn't make any sense to Job, and God wouldn't waste His time doing that.

Now on to leviathan.

Since the conversation in chapter 41 continues without a break from chp 40, it is extremely likely, even certain, that God is still being literal and not figurative. Furthermore, God describes leviathan in a very thorough way, making more than one reference to the type of scales it has and how they fit together on the creature's body, and calling it a serpent and a dragon. It is also clear that leviathan is distinctly different from behemoth. Even the two words have different meanings.

Now look at verse 10. This is the clincher - it sums up the entire conversation and proves that this is allegorical yet literal, designed to put Job in his place. "None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?" In other words, "This is the most fearsome creature in the sea, and I created it, so how much more powerful am I?"

Finally, Psalms mentions leviathan, and clearly states that God created leviathan and put him in the sea:

Psalms 104:25,26: "O Lord, how manifold thy works, in wisdom you have created them all. So is this great and wide sea... there go the ships and the Leviathan which you have created to play therein."


Yes, I am aware they are two different creatures, I have made that clear... My original point is that the Bible does contain metaphors and figurative speech and as you mentioned "allegory".
 
95DevilleNS said:
Yes, I am aware they are two different creatures, I have made that clear... My original point is that the Bible does contain metaphors and figurative speech and as you mentioned "allegory".
The point is that you use real concrete examples to make allegorical comparisons, not abstract examples. Therefore, the creatures are literal, not figurative.

You've missed my point, either deliberately or unconsciously, and I've obviously wasted a lot of time and effort trying to make it to you. I won't make the same mistake again.
 
fossten said:
The point is that you use real concrete examples to make allegorical comparisons, not abstract examples. Therefore, the creatures are literal, not figurative.

You've missed my point, either deliberately or unconsciously, and I've obviously wasted a lot of time and effort trying to make it to you. I won't make the same mistake again.


You win the Internet...

If you want to believe that Dinosaurs and every single living thing contained in the fossil record existed side-by-side all at the same time, that is certainly your right, but don't try to use the Bible as factual/undeniable proof. Evolution(ist) does have holes and many things have been re-thought as new knowledge and technology has become available, but at least it relies on scientific method to try and prove hypothesisgb into theory and theory into fact.
 
95DevilleNS said:
You win the Internet...

If you want to believe that Dinosaurs and every single living thing contained in the fossil record existed side-by-side all at the same time, that is certainly your right, but don't try to use the Bible as factual/undeniable proof. Evolution(ist) does have holes and many things have been re-thought as new knowledge and technology has become available, but at least it relies on scientific method to try and prove hypothesisgb into theory and theory into fact.

The question, not posed by you by the way, was whether or not the Bible had dinosaurs in it. I was simply answering the question. Interesting how you try a phony straw man to change the subject. However, on that note:

Fossil records show that dinosaurs and humans lived side by side. I don't have to use the Bible as proof. Use your "scientific method" and explain that.
 
fossten said:
The question, not posed by you by the way, was whether or not the Bible had dinosaurs in it. I was simply answering the question. Interesting how you try a phony straw man to change the subject. However, on that note:

Fossil records show that dinosaurs and humans lived side by side. I don't have to use the Bible as proof. Use your "scientific method" and explain that.

Fossil records have not... Use common sense, if humans (especially stone-age humans) had to compete with every single living predator (and there were some nasty ones) that ever existed at the same time, we wouldn't have made it.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Fossil records have not... Use common sense, if humans (especially stone-age humans) had to compete with every single living predator (and there were some nasty ones) that ever existed at the same time, we wouldn't have made it.

Wow. Mr. Science has spoken! Congratulations, you've cracked the case, Deville. That's about the weakest argument I've ever heard. So I guess every single American Indian tribe who had to deal with lions, bears, and all kinds of predators with nothing but knives and bows/arrows didn't survive, either, eh?

Here's a snip for you on that subject:

Actually, if you strip away the evolutionary hype, there is nothing fantastic or eerie about dinosaurs. There is no reason to see them as something so startlingly different from the present world that it should be hard to conceive of them living on the planet at the same time as people or giraffes.

Size? The largest dinosaur was probably smaller than today’s blue whale. The average size was probably that of the great red kangaroo.

Big teeth? There are flesh-eating and plant-eating creatures alive which, proportionate to their body size, also have massive teeth.

Whether we look at horns, scales, armor-plating, reptilian eggs or whatever, it is hard to see anything mysterious or radically different from what we see today. In fact, Jurassic Park may have done us a favour by helping us to visualize people and dinosaurs living at the same time, which in the biblical view of history is necessarily true.

Steven Spielberg’s Jurassic Park tries to make this coexistence appear wrong and unnatural. A theme running throughout is that nature/evolution is an immensely powerful, god-like force and should not be tampered with. (One of the film’s characters, a ‘chaos theorist’, referred to ‘God’, but this was more in the context of a pantheistic, New Age type of evolutionary god-force.)

A clear message of the film is that man has no inherent Genesis dominion/stewardship over the earth.1 People have no right to ‘mess with evolution’. The evolution-god has decreed that the dinosaurs should die out, so don’t revive them unless you want to pay the penalty.

That this reflects Spielberg’s own philosophy was revealed in a recent TV interview. He said that it would be wrong and immoral to make a dinosaur from DNA (if it were possible). Why? Because they had had their chance, their shot, at evolution. In other words, evolution, not God, becomes the absolute standard for what is right or wrong.

Watching Sam Neill gaze lovingly into the eyes of a plant-eating brachiosaur, or Laura Dern stroke a dying Triceratops is one thing, but can one conceive of people inhabiting the same planet as the film’s fierce, cunning Velociraptors? In fact, most of their fossils stand only about 1.2 metres (four feet) high, and there is no way of knowing their behaviour or intelligence for certain.

We know from Genesis, moreover, that pre-Flood man was no ignorant savage. With metal forging from the earliest times (Genesis 4:22), there would have been ample technological scope for man to comfortably exercise dominion over these raptors. And over Tyrannosaurus rex—even if it was the savage hunter the film portrays.2 In fact, with people in rebellion against the pre-Flood prohibition of meat-eating, T. rex may have been wise to avoid being in the same parts of the earth as man, so as not to be trapped and feasted upon.

http://answersingenesis.org/creation/v16/i1/dinosaurs.asp

Let me amend my previous comment from fossils to footprints.

Human and dinosaur footprints in Turkmenistan?
by Sergei Golovin

Human footprints lie alongside thousands of dinosaur prints on a Turkmenian plateau, a Russian newspaper has reported.

Journalist Alexander Bushev reported in the 31 January 1995 edition of Komsomolskaya Pravda (one of the most popular newspapers of the former USSR) that he had journeyed to the plateau near the village of Khodga-Pil in Turkmenistan, and had seen the fossilized prints of dinosaurs and humans together.

According to evolutionary theory, dinosaurs had become extinct long before humans first appeared on earth.

Bushev said that every metre of the half-kilometre-wide rock surface is covered by three-toed footprints ‘made by giant dinosaurs making their morning or evening promenade along the ancient sea-shore’. The Turkmenian plateau contains more than 3,000 footprints.

Bushev said that Turkmenian scientist Kurban Amanniyazov considers this Jurassic plateau to be at least 200 million years old.

‘But the most mysterious fact’, Bushev added, ‘is that among the footprints of dinosaurs, footprints of bare human feet were found!’ He suggested that, because ‘we know’ that humans appeared much later than dinosaurs, there was an extraterrestrial ‘who walked in his swimming suit along the sea-side’.

This report about dinosaur and human footprints on Kughitang-Tau Plateau is not the first. The news was reported to readers of the English version of Moscow News in 1983 (No. 24, p. 10). This was during a period when communists strictly controlled the ideological aspect of all publications, so an article of that kind could be published only with official commentary from a representative of official State science.

The commentary they gave at that time was this:

‘Who knows, but maybe our very far removed ancestors did mingle with dinosaurs?

‘“Science might possibly answer that in the affirmative some time in the future”, said Professor Kurban Amanniyazov, head of the expedition. “However, at present we don’t have enough grounds to say this. We’ve imprints resembling human footprints, but to date have failed to determine, with any scientific veracity, whom they belong to, after all.

‘“If we could prove that they do belong to a humanoid, then it would create a revolution in the science of man. Humanity would ‘grow older’ thirty-fold and its history would be at least 150 million years long?”’


The new report proves that nothing has changed. Indoctrinated by evolutionary dogma, people can either sarcastically deny existing facts that don’t match their beloved theory, or surrender to gullibility in something like an extraterrestrial or 150 million years of the history of mankind that left no evidence. [In other words, just use your common sense, stupid!!! If it looks like a human footprint, it probably is!]

Such fiction seems to them more credible than the evident conclusion that the ‘millions of years’ time-scale does not match the facts and needs a revision.

Note: This article is a factual account of a genuine, sober report in the Russian newspaper. However, one needs to be cautious about accepting the prints described on the basis of just this report. None of our sources has been able to obtain any further information on the prints, nor any photograph to this date. It is presented for the information of readers, and to show how these particular evolutionists interpreted evidence which seemed to contradict the whole concept.

Sergei Golovin is a graduate of Simferopol State University in the Ukraine. His specialties are laser optics and geophysics, and he has patented inventions in these fields. His research has been published in journals of the USSR Academy of Sciences, and in 1992 he founded the (creationist) Christian Scientific Center in the Ukraine.
 
Hi Fossten

Fossten said:
And while we're at it, do me a favor, explain where the solid matter for the big bang came from, if there isn't a God.

Perhaps you could do me a favour and explain where God came from to create the solid matter and what did he create it out of?

Regards

Dereck
 
fossten said:
Wow. Mr. Science has spoken! Congratulations, you've cracked the case, Deville. That's about the weakest argument I've ever heard. So I guess every single American Indian tribe who had to deal with lions, bears, and all kinds of predators with nothing but knives and bows/arrows didn't survive, either, eh?

Mr. Science has Mr. Religion... That wasn't an argument in itself, just some rational. As far as your American Idian "weak argument", I said "every predator that ever existed" that's from Allosaurus to smilodon to grizzly bears and everything in between those.
 
Even many creationists have given up on the "man track" claim:

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=255

In view of these developments, none of the four trails at the Taylor site can today be regarded as unquestionably of human origin. The Taylor Trail appears, obviously, dinosaurian, as do two prints thought to be in the Turnage Trail. The Giant Trail has what appears to be dinosaur prints leading toward it, and some of the Ryals tracks seem to be developing claw features, also.

Trails and prints elsewhere along the Paluxy, while contributive to the original interpretation, may be insufficient to stand alone. Erosion has further deteriorated the once-interesting prints on the park ledge, but they are still recognizable. At the Dougherty site, no hints of the important Cherry Trail and Morris prints remain. The various controversial prints labeled as human by Carl Baugh in recent years are of uncertain origin, and at best are not comparable in quality to prints at the sites discussed above, thereby providing no support for the original position. Earlier prints which had been removed from the river before being documented, even if genuine, cannot be considered as compelling evidence, in view of their uncertain source.

As for all the other purported man-prints, here's a site that delves into all of them:

http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm

If there was solid evidence that man and dino walked the earth together, it would be one of the greatest discoveries of all time. The notion that scientists would try to suppress it is utter nonsense.
 
TommyB said:
If there was solid evidence that man and dino walked the earth together, it would be one of the greatest discoveries of all time. The notion that scientists would try to suppress it is utter nonsense.

That's the one thing; science has proven it-self wrong many times and been happy to say it as new evidence is essentially what is being sought after. Science has nothing to lose if evidence proved that dinosaurs and man lived side-by-side, as you mentioned, it would be "great" discovery and that’s what science it, discovering... Religion on the other hand relies on its dogma being unshakeable.
 
95DevilleNS said:
That's the one thing; science has proven it-self wrong many times and been happy to say it as new evidence is essentially what is being sought after. Science has nothing to lose if evidence proved that dinosaurs and man lived side-by-side, as you mentioned, it would be "great" discovery and that’s what science it, discovering... Religion on the other hand relies on its dogma being unshakeable.

:I The presence of "missing links" does not disprove evolution, it merely means we haven't yet discovered all those links yet. Meanwhile most religions oppress discovery though fearmongering. But THANK GOD not everyone has their heads burried in the "biblical literalist" sand:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/16668005.htm

Darwin gets his day in church
By Rhea Edmonds
The Journal Gazette

Religious leaders throughout the nation, including northeast Indiana, are fed up with religion being used in a narrowly defined way.

That’s why Michael Zimmerman, dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Butler University in Indianapolis, believes participation in Evolution Sunday, which he started last year, has considerably increased this year.

“I get an enormous amount of hate mail saying, ‘If you believe in evolution, you’re going to hell,’ ” Zimmerman said. He thinks it’s time to move beyond that sort of thinking.

Evolution Sunday, which will be observed by nearly 600 congregations throughout the United States on Sunday, is a starting point. Nineteen Indiana congregations are expected to participate, two of which – Epiphany Lutheran Church, 6606 Maplecrest Road, and the Unitarian Universalist Congregation, 5310 Old Mill Road – are in Fort Wayne.

“Unitarian Universalists are not biblical literalists,” said Jay Abernathy, a minister with the congregation “Darwin’s family were Unitarians in England. We have a connection that way.”

The point of Evolution Sunday is to discuss and share the belief that science, namely the theory of evolution, which Charles Darwin founded, and the Bible are not mutually exclusive. Monday is the 198th anniversary of Darwin’s birth.

“I think it’s fair to say that the religious leaders participating understand that taking a very narrow view of religion being a biblical literalist, and assuming that the Bible needs to be read – that the Bible needs to be read like a scientific text – demeans religion and is terrible science,” Zimmerman said. “I think it’s fair to say that the religious leaders participating recognize that religion, especially Christians, for centuries believed that the sun revolved around the Earth. That was supported by lots of quotations from the Bible. We’ve come past that now and coming past that in no way threatens the viability or importance of religion. Similarly, recognizing that there are other aspects of modern science that are not consistent with a literal interpretation of the Bible pose no threat to anybody’s spirituality or morality.”

Evolution Sunday is an outgrowth of the Clergy Letter Project, a letter that has been signed by more than 10,500 Christian clergy who agree that “the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as ‘one theory among others’ is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children,” according to a written statement.

Zimmerman started the Clergy Letter Project in 2004, after a Wisconsin school board passed a series of anti-evolution policies, according to the written statement.

Zimmerman wanted to demonstrate that science and religion don’t conflict.

Abernathy said his congregation did not participate in Evolution Sunday last year because they didn’t know about it.

This year, however, they will have special music Sunday in honor of Evolution Sunday and a related sermon the following Sunday, he said. “It’s a very popular Sunday for our folks.”

Zimmerman said he hopes participants walk away with an understanding that they do not have to choose between religion and science. If American citizens are forced to make that choice, Zimmerman believes most people would choose religion. If so, “we will have a deepening crisis on our hands,” he said. The crisis would be that the nation would continue to fall behind other developing nations in key areas such as science. “If we go on to train very few scientists, you can imagine what’s going to happen in this country,” he said.
 
Bully for him. So what, Ahmadinep*ssy? I will say this, and you KNOW it's true, the only oppression going on these days is the oppression of alternative theories to evolution. You cannot cite one single example where evolution is being squeezed out in favor of Intelligent Design, for example, in any public school anywhere.

But I can cite you court cases where rabid, angry ACLU types are screaming bloody murder at the very thought that some kid in school might want to think for himself despite the overbearing oppression of his teachers, school board, and antiquated texts all forcing evolution down his throat. So you can take your bullcrap, hypocritical, 180 degrees out of phase, uneducated rhetoric and shove it up your a$$.
 
I.D. is religiously based and religion does not belong in public schools, period. If you want to teach your child that the 'eye' is so complex only the Abraham-ic God could have created/designed it or that the lion and sheep where finds in the Garden of Eden do so in either a private school, at church or at home. No one will or has the right to deny you that.

As far as children being indoctrinated into believing Evolution, no one ever said "if you don't believe in evolution you'll suffer eternally for it when you die". Evolution is taught, if you choose to disbelieve, so be it. I had a few kids in my H.S Class that would go to the library because their parents did not want them listening to natural selection, survival of the fittest etc. No one made a fuss about it.
 
95DevilleNS said:
I.D. is religiously based and religion does not belong in public schools, period. If you want to teach your child that the 'eye' is so complex only the Abraham-ic God could have created/designed it or that the lion and sheep where finds in the Garden of Eden do so in either a private school, at church or at home. No one will or has the right to deny you that.

As far as children being indoctrinated into believing Evolution, no one ever said "if you don't believe in evolution you'll suffer eternally for it when you die". Evolution is taught, if you choose to disbelieve, so be it. I had a few kids in my H.S Class that would go to the library because their parents did not want them listening to natural selection, survival of the fittest etc. No one made a fuss about it.
You don't know the first thing about I.D. Nowhere in ID is God mentioned. Bet you didn't know that, did you? So how can you claim it's religiously based when it doesn't mention God? You didn't do your research. That's the difference between you and me, and the difference between all you other evolutionists and me. You all don't bother to research creation and ID, but I do spend the time researching evolution, and I can tell you that it's baloney.

I think you people are afraid of what you'd find, which is exactly this: The textbooks you learned evolution out of as a kid are phony, outdated, and full of falsehoods. They are unprofessionally done without the proper research and balance of facts.

Your straw man about going to hell because you believe in evolution is something I've never said, nor is it something I believe. I challenge you to find a quote. Never happen. Yet another false straw man posed by you.

And I can tell you about situations where teachers have been fired because they urged students to make up their own minds about evolution and encouraged looking at both sides. So much for tolerance and freedom of thought. That is sheer oppression and stalinism.
 
Dereck said:
Hi Fossten

Perhaps you could do me a favour and explain where God came from to create the solid matter and what did he create it out of?

Regards

Dereck

Hi

Hmmm, It appears Fossten cannot explain where God came from.

Regards

Dereck
 
Dereck said:
Hi

Hmmm, It appears Fossten cannot explain where God came from.

Regards

Dereck

I don't answer stupid questions. No offense.

But since you're in the mood, why don't you answer a few?

1. Where do the 'Big Bang' scientists get their matter for the 'Big Bang?'
2. How does the explosion occur?
3. How did life actually spark itself out of nothing?
4. How did new genetic information get written, when it has never ever empirically been shown to have happened?

I'm just getting started, but I await your answers with bated breath.
 
Dereck said:
Hi

Hmmm, It appears Fossten cannot explain where God came from.

Regards

Dereck

Nope, because he can't. Besides that, you haven't pissed him off enough yet to elicit one of his typical hateful, name-calling, personal attacking tirades:

fossten said:
Bully for him. So what, Ahmadinep*ssy? I will say this, and you KNOW it's true, the only oppression going on these days is the oppression of alternative theories to evolution. You cannot cite one single example where evolution is being squeezed out in favor of Intelligent Design, for example, in any public school anywhere.

But I can cite you court cases where rabid, angry ACLU types are screaming bloody murder at the very thought that some kid in school might want to think for himself despite the overbearing oppression of his teachers, school board, and antiquated texts all forcing evolution down his throat. So you can take your bullcrap, hypocritical, 180 degrees out of phase, uneducated rhetoric and shove it up your a$$.

Well, here's a start that debunks your very claim that this battle is purely one-way:

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/12_02/create.shtml

The Evolution Of Creationism
Right-Wing Zealots Attack Science

By Leon Lynn

More than 70 years after the Scopes "Monkey Trial," the scientific theory of evolution is still too hot for some American schools to handle.

In that infamous 1925 case, worldwide attention focused on John T. Scopes, who was on trial for teaching evolution and breaking a Tennessee law which banned teaching "any theory that denies the story of the Divine Creation of man as taught in the Bible." Despite decades of scientific advances supporting evolution since the Scopes trial, despite numerous court rulings aimed at protecting science and educators from religious zealotry, and despite ever-increasing rhetoric about helping students compete in the modern world by giving them the best possible science education, schools all across the country are under pressure to downplay, ignore, or distort one of the fundamental theories of modern science. In at least some of those schools, the pressure is working.

What's more, some observers say, the pressure is getting worse. Right-wingers and religious fundamentalists have been buoyed by newfound political strength in recent years. They are attacking evolution -- as well as the whole concept of a secular, publicly funded school system -- with ever-increasing vigor as they attempt to batter down the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state and stamp their own brand of religion upon school curriculum.

Creationists don't often win outright victories; a court decision or legislative vote eventually stops many anti-evolution proposals. Nonetheless, the enemies of evolution often succeed in sending a message to teachers: If you value your careers, don't teach this. And many teachers, fearing they'll be fired or that their communities will shun them, comply.

Furthermore, in recent years creationists have adopted more sophisticated tactics. In particular, they have repackaged creationism to make such beliefs appear as legitimate scientific theory -- which they then argue should be taught in conjunction with evolution.

What is Evolution?
Simply put, evolution is the scientific theory that all life forms on earth today are descended from a single cell, or at most a very few different cells. The diversity we see among species is the result of biological changes that have taken place over many hundreds of millions of years. During that time, new variations of plants and animals have appeared, through what the National Association of Biology Teachers terms "an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable, and natural process of temporal descent ... ." Those new variations best able to adapt -- to find food, escape predators, protect living space, or produce offspring -- survived to pass along their traits to future generations. This is the process that Charles Darwin termed "natural selection" in his seminal 1859 work, "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection."

The scientific community attaches great importance to the theory of evolution. The National Association of Biology Teachers says it's impossible to provide "a rational, coherent and scientific account" of the history and diversity of organisms on earth, or to effectively teach cellular and molecular biology, without including the principles and mechanisms of evolution. Similarly, leading national voices for the reform of science education, including the National Science Teachers Association and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, emphasize the importance of teaching evolution as part of a well-rounded K-12 science curriculum. An NSTA position paper on evolution, for example, notes that there is "abundant and consistent evidence from astronomy, physics, biochemistry, geochronology, geology, biology, anthropology, and other sciences that evolution has taken place," making it an important "unifying concept for science." Scientific disciplines "with a historical component, such as astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology, cannot be taught with integrity if evolution is not emphasized," NSTA concludes.

What Creationists Believe
Generally, there's no conflict today between the theory of evolution and the religious beliefs of people who think that a supernatural entity guided the creation of the world. Many scientists and philosophers who accept the validity of evolution are nevertheless devoutly religious. Even Pope John Paul II, in a statement released in 1996, said that while the Catholic church holds that God created heaven and Earth, there is strong scientific evidence to support evolution.

In the realm of U.S. politics and education, however, the term "creationist" is generally used to refer to people actively pushing a particular, fundamentalist Christian religious perspective which rejects the theory of evolution as false. While there are different factions -- some creationists insist that Earth is only a few thousand years old, for example, while others remain open to the possibility that it's much older -- people actively challenging evolution and seeking to promote creationism generally believe that:


- Life appeared on Earth suddenly, in forms similar or identical to those seen today. Humans, therefore, did not evolve from earlier species.

- All life was designed for certain functions and purposes.

- The Bible is an accurate historical record of creation and other events, such as the Great Flood. (Again, however, there are factional differences. Some creationists insist that the "creation week" was a literal seven-day week, while others believe the creation period could have lasted longer.)
Many creationists also believe that because evolution contradicts their interpretation of the Bible, it is therefore anti-God. For example Henry Morris, founder of a leading creationist think tank, the Institute for Creation Research, has written that evolution is dangerous because it leads "to the notion that each person owns himself, and is the master of his own destiny." This, he argues, is "contrary to the Bible teaching that man is in rebellion against God." (See the "Resources" article for more information on the Institute for Creation Research.)

The Roots of Creationism
In the decades immediately following the publication of Darwin's landmark book in 1859, colleges began revising their curricula "to purge religious influences," says Gerald R. Skoog, a professor of education at Texas Tech University and a past president of the National Science Teachers Association. High schools began following suit around 1900, but the process was by no means swift or comprehensive. In 1925 in Dayton, TN, science teacher John T. Scopes was put on trial for breaking Tennessee's law banning the teaching of evolution. The case became an international spectacle because of the appearances, and impassioned arguments, of lawyer Clarence Darrow on Scopes' behalf and political giant William Jennings Bryan in opposition to evolution. Scopes was convicted, although his conviction was later dismissed on appeal by the state Supreme Court. The anti-evolution law remained on the books in Tennessee until 1967, when it was finally repealed.

In recent decades, numerous state and federal court decisions have sought to protect scientists and educators who advocate the teaching of evolution. At the heart of the decisions is the courts' view that banning the teaching of evolution is a violation of the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state. Among the more significant decisions:


- The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1968 that an Arkansas law banning the teaching of evolution was unconstitutional. In essence, the court held that creationists were attempting to foist a particular religious philosophy in the schools.

- In 1981 the Supreme Court rejected a California creationist's claim that classroom discussions of evolution infringed on his right, and the rights of his children, to free exercise of religion.

- In 1987, the Supreme Court tossed out a Louisiana law that required the teaching of creationism whenever evolution was taught in schools, saying the law was an endorsement of religion.

- In 1990, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a school district could prohibit a teacher from teaching creationism and that such a prohibition wouldn't violate the teacher's free-speech rights.

- Similarly, in 1994 the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a teacher's First Amendment right to free exercise of religion is not violated by a school-district requirement that teachers include evolution in biology curricula.

- In September 1997, a U.S. district court in Louisiana struck down as unconstitutional a three-year-old policy in Tangipahoa Parish that required teachers to read a disclaimer before teaching the theory of evolution.
Evolution also received a major boost, oddly enough, from the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik in 1957. Critics of the U.S. education system seized on the launch, saying America's "defeat" in the space race was due to poor schooling. This issue quickly became part of the national political agenda, and schools began putting new emphasis on math and science education.
Despite these court decisions, however, and the resurgence of interest in science education that flowed from the space race, evolution remains a popular target in school board meeting rooms, legislative halls, and courthouses from Virginia to California. The last decade in particular has seen a surge in creationist political activity.

On the Rise
"It certainly looks as though it's on the rise," says Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which advocates the teaching of evolution and opposes allowing creationism in schools. "I think the increase can be largely attributed to religious conservatives getting elected to school boards," she says. "It only takes one or two creationists on a school board to generate significant controversy, especially if the science curriculum undergoes periodic review."

Religious right groups like the Christian Coalition and Citizens for Excellence in Education have pushed hard to get right-wing Christians elected to local school boards in recent years. That's because school-board elections often elicit jaw-droppingly low voter turnout, making it easier for a small but motivated faction to elect its hand-picked candidate. School boards are also attractive to right-wingers because board members have -- or at least appear to have -- tremendous influence over what can and can't be taught in a community's schools.

Right-wing political activists also got a tremendous boost in 1994, when an electorate disenchanted with Bill Clinton voted an unprecedented number of Republicans into state-level and local offices. The legislatures in many states slid rightward literally overnight. Today, right-wing lawmakers are carrying out attacks on public education on numerous fronts, with an eye toward pushing a fundamentalist political agenda -- regardless of the wishes of most parents, teachers, and educators -- and eroding the separation of church and state that has long been the hallmark of public schools. In addition to creationism, major battles are being waged around the country on such issues as school prayer, school-sponsored religious activity, so-called "parental-rights initiatives," sex education, and vouchers. Carole Shields, president of People for the American Way, has called these attacks on public education "one element of the Right's attack on the fundamental institutions and values of American society. In attacking the schools, the Right is taking aim at the fundamental notion of opportunity for all. ... What better way to deny real opportunity could be devised than to hamper the institutions that furnish children with an education?"

Examples of creationists trying to use their political might to foist their religious beliefs on public schools include:


- In Vista, California in 1992, voters elected a school board member who was also an accountant for the Institute for Creation Research. After the district's teachers rejected his suggestion to use the creationist book "Of Pandas and People" as a science textbook (see the related article for more on this book), he began advocating that teachers teach "weaknesses in evolution" whenever evolution was taught. Eventually, the board member and two others who had consistently voted with him on such issues were recalled.

- In Alabama in 1995, the state school board voted 6-1 in favor of a inserting a disclaimer into biology textbooks. Written by the right-wing Eagle Forum, it reads in part: "This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things. ... No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact." According to People for the American Way, Alabama Governor Fob James, who is president of the state school board, urged the board to accept the motion, saying: "If one wanted to know something about the origin of life you might want to look at Genesis and you can get the whole story, period." James also used his discretionary funds to purchase and send more than 900 copies of "Darwin on Trial," a creationist book, to all biology teachers in the state.

- In Hall County, Georgia in 1996, the school board adopted a resolution directing the textbook and curriculum committee to include materials in the science curriculum that explain and discuss creationism. The board rescinded this resolution after the state attorney general warned that this would be unconstitutional.

- In Tennessee in 1996, the Senate and House education committees both approved a bill that would have allowed schools to fire any teacher who presented evolution as a fact. A Senate amendment "defined" evolution as an "unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things." Debate over the bill continued for months, despite an opinion issued by the state attorney general saying that the bill was unconstitutional. It was finally voted down by the Legislature.
Wesley Roberts, an ecology and environmental sciences teacher in Nashville, got himself -- and his students -- involved in the struggle to kill the Tennessee bill. He attended several sessions of the Legislature during the debates, sometimes bringing students from his school with him. "I think they (the students) were smart enough to realize that their teachers were about to be censored," he says, "and regardless of their position on creation and evolution, they did not like that at all." The students "definitely had an impact on the debate," he says. "The media were all over them, interviewing them. They loved getting sound bites from angry kids and plastering them all over TV and the newspaper."

While the rejection of the bill was "a real victory," Roberts says, it will take much more to really pave the way for evolution to be taught in Tennessee. Many teachers, mindful of all the ill will focused on evolution for so long, "won't even mention it in class," he says. Even students in his advanced-placement environmental science class "have very rarely had any instruction in evolution." In fact, in a class Roberts teaches at a nearby college, "I always ask my students how much instruction they've had in evolution, and it's always the case that if they've had it, they went to a private school or they're from the North," he says.

This "chilling effect" stifles teachers all across the country, North as well as South. Even when creationists seem to lose a struggle, as in Tennessee, the controversy they generate can leave teachers wary to so much as mention evolution to their students. "There's a tendency for teachers to be noncombative," says Scott of the National Center for Science Education. "Generally teachers are not looking for a fight. ... If they perceive that a subject is going to get them in trouble, they may very well decide to just steer clear."

The Evolution of Creationism
Despite suffering some political and judicial setbacks, anti-evolutionists are not about to give up applying that pressure. Leaders of the creationist movement have been industrious and relatively skillful about repackaging and reintroducing their beliefs.

Take, for example, the creationists' response to the 1987 U.S. Supreme Court decision, known as Edwards v. Aguillar, which struck down the Louisiana law requiring teachers to give equal time to "creation science" whenever they taught evolution. The late Justice William Brennan, writing the majority opinion, made it clear that "creation science" wasn't science at all, but an endorsement of faith-based religious belief. He also rejected the idea that the Louisiana law was promoting "a basic concept of fairness" by requiring that both evolution and creation science be taught. "Instead," he wrote, "this Act has the distinctly different purpose of discrediting evolution by counter-balancing its teaching at every turn with the teaching of creationism."

Brennan delivered a powerful rhetorical blow against anti-evolutionists. But deep in his 3,800-word opinion, creationists found a single sentence that gave them something they could build on. Brennan had written: "Teaching a variety of scientific theories about the origins of humankind to schoolchildren might be validly done with the clear secular intent of enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction." And in the dissenting opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia, they found another useful phrase: "The people of Louisiana, including those who are Christian fundamentalists, are quite entitled, as a secular matter, to have whatever scientific evidence there may be against evolution presented in their schools ..."

These two statements set the stage for the two most current versions of creationism: the so-called "theory of intelligent design" and the efforts to inject "scientific evidence against evolution" into school curricula. Both are perhaps best exemplified by the creationist pseudo-textbook "Of Pandas and People." Similar reasoning lurks behind the many efforts to slap disclaimers on science textbooks, reminding students that evolution is "only a theory" and not fact. This is a serious misuse of the scientific meaning of "theory," making it sound like a synonym for "guess" or "hunch." In fact, according to the National Association of Biology Teachers, "a (scientific) theory is not a guess or an approximation, but an extensive explanation developed from well-documented, reproducible sets of experimentally derived data from repeated observations of natural processes." In other words, just because the theory of evolution is subject to continued testing and examination in light of new evidence doesn't make it untrue.

The reasons behind such attacks on evolution are obvious, according to a statement written by Rob Boston, a spokesman for the group Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. "They're shifting their attacks by trying to water down the teaching of evolution--put doubts in children's minds. They figure that if they can't get creationism taught in public schools, then the next best thing is to take the instruction about evolution and undercut it."

Leon Lynn is an education journalist in Milwaukee.

Bottom line, "creationism" in all it's forms belong in the HOME and CHURCH, NOT the public school. To do otherwise is to force one's religious beliefs down others throats. THAT is "sheer oppression and stalinism".
*owned*
 
fossten said:
You don't know the first thing about I.D. Nowhere in ID is God mentioned. Bet you didn't know that, did you? So how can you claim it's religiously based when it doesn't mention God? You didn't do your research. That's the difference between you and me, and the difference between all you other evolutionists and me. You all don't bother to research creation and ID, but I do spend the time researching evolution, and I can tell you that it's baloney.

Oh REALLY?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Origins of the concept
Philosophers have long debated whether the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. The first recorded arguments for a natural designer come from Greek philosophy. In the 4th century BC, Plato posited a natural "demiurge" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his work Timaeus. Aristotle also developed the idea of a natural creator of the cosmos, often called the "Prime Mover," in his work Metaphysics. In De Natura Deorum, or "On the Nature of the Gods" (45 BC), Cicero stated that "the divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature."[28]

The use of this line of reasoning as applied to a supernatural designer has come to be known as the teleological argument for the existence of God. The most notable forms of this argument were expressed in the 13th century by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae,[29] design being the fifth of Aquinas' five proofs for God's existence, and by William Paley in his book Natural Theology (1802).[30] Paley used the watchmaker analogy, which is still used in intelligent design arguments. In the early 19th century, such arguments led to the development of what was called natural theology, the study of biology as a search to understand "the mind of God." This movement fueled the passion for collecting fossils and other biological specimens that ultimately led to Darwin's theory of the origin of species. Similar reasoning postulating a divine designer is embraced today by many believers in theistic evolution, who consider modern science and the theory of evolution to be fully compatible with the concept of a supernatural designer. <snip>

Some "research" you've done there, pal. :bowrofl:
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Oh REALLY?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design



Some "research" you've done there, pal. :bowrofl:

You used Wikipedia??? :bowrofl: That's the least credible source you could have found. Why, I would believe that you yourself could have put that information up there and then linked it, except for the fact that the spelling is too good. Furthermore, that "article" is simply someone's opinion about what ID is. ID itself, which YOU STILL HAVEN'T RESEARCHED, doesn't mention God in its teachings.

Not even a nice try.

*owned*
 
Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Tuesday, Feb. 13, 2007 7:36 a.m. EST

God, Darwin Clash Again in Kansas


For the fourth time in eight years, the Kansas Board of Education is preparing to take up the issue of evolution and what to teach - or not teach - public school students about the origins of life.

After victory at the polls in November, a moderate majority on the 10-member board in the central U.S. state plans to overturn science standards seen as critical of evolution at a board meeting on Tuesday in Topeka.

New standards would replace those put in place in 2005 by a conservative board majority that challenged the validity of evolution and cited it as incompatible with religious doctrine.

The 2005 action outraged scientists across the United States, with the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers Association refusing a request by Kansas to use copyrighted material in textbooks. [Open, blatant, Stalinist oppression]

Voters in last year's elections then swayed the balance of power on the board to moderates.

The move on Tuesday to rewrite the science standards would come a day after the birthday of evolution scholar Charles Darwin, who gained fame in 1859 for his book "The Origin of Species."

Some religious groups argue that evolution cannot be proven and is not in accordance with Biblical teachings regarding the origins of life. Teaching evolution misleads and confuses students, opponents say.

But supporters say religion has no valid role in a science class and evolution is the foundation for understanding key concepts in biology and other scientific fields.

Adding fuel to the debate, the Seattle-based Discovery Institute issued a press release on Monday protesting the board's planned move.

"You have a board in Kansas that is so extreme," said John West, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a think tank focusing on science education and intelligent design.

That theory holds that an intelligent force - which some proponents would say is God - is probably responsible for some aspects of nature.

Still, some were cheering the board's move to restore standards that anti-evolution forces rewrote in 1999, only to be followed with a rewrite by evolution supporters in 2001 and then the anti-evolution board in 2005.

"I'm very much hoping that history repeats itself . . . and the 2007 school board makes the right decision for Kansas students to restore the valid standards," said National Center for Science Education executive director Eugenie Scott.

"These are standards that reflect science, rather than a politicized curriculum that miseducates students."

The repeated changes have left schools and teachers scrambling to keep up. Educators say some aspects of a curriculum change can usually be implemented by the next school year but some, such as buying new textbooks, can take years.
 
fossten said:
You don't know the first thing about I.D. Nowhere in ID is God mentioned. Bet you didn't know that, did you? So how can you claim it's religiously based when it doesn't mention God? You didn't do your research. That's the difference between you and me, and the difference between all you other evolutionists and me. You all don't bother to research creation and ID, but I do spend the time researching evolution, and I can tell you that it's baloney.

I think you people are afraid of what you'd find, which is exactly this: The textbooks you learned evolution out of as a kid are phony, outdated, and full of falsehoods. They are unprofessionally done without the proper research and balance of facts.

Your straw man about going to hell because you believe in evolution is something I've never said, nor is it something I believe. I challenge you to find a quote. Never happen. Yet another false straw man posed by you.

And I can tell you about situations where teachers have been fired because they urged students to make up their own minds about evolution and encouraged looking at both sides. So much for tolerance and freedom of thought. That is sheer oppression and stalinism.

You're seriously going to say that I.D. is not religiously based? LOL... Then pray tell what "Intelligence" does it refer too if not God or a god?

I never claimed you personally said "You're going to hell..." did I? I said religion has stated that if you do not believe in what is written you'll go to hell. Nice try.

I'll take your word about those teachers being fired, you know why though? They "encouraged" religion and that is not their job. Public schools are religiously free; teachers do not have the right to impose/imply religion on students. Wouldn't you be upset if your child attending public school was asked by a Muslim teacher to consider the Islamic point of view on anything?
 

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