Creationism: Last Debate of 2010 on the subject.

I don't think so, nor do I think the actual science necessarily contradicts the bible-

Adam and Eve?

Also - the plants before the sun is a pretty big stretch.

And I don't think it's appropriate to put any words in Fossten's mouth. I haven't seen him express the sentiment you stated.

You are right, that would be wrong - to say that Fossten said something that he didn't. But this statement by foss -

Evolution's hypothesis that the universe took billions of years starts with the assumption that there is no God who created it in 6 days. All evidence must fit around that premise.

seems to indicate that evolution/big bang and belief in God and the version of man's/universe's creation in Genesis are mutually exclusive. You can't believe in God, unless you take the Genesis version verbatim.
 
But, why can't it have 'always been'.

That would, again, not be consistent with any theory of science or of materialism.

All science assumes a cause and looks for what that cause is. If you take away that assumption ALL empirical reasoning falls apart, and science is empirical reasoning.
 
Also - the plants before the sun is a pretty big stretch.
Is it? Does anything live at depths of the sea where light can't reach? Again, I would argue that the presentation in the old testament can't be read literally, but with the understanding that it was as understood by the people who were retelling it and eventually writing it. But if you were alive 2500 years ago, if I explained single cell and other simple organisms that created energy based on thermal energy released from the earth, maybe they'd simply associate that with the plant life as well.

Again, to be clear, I'm not defending a young Earth theory. I don't subscribe to that. Nor do I present myself with any authority on this subject.
 
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Is it? Does anything live at depths of the sea where light can't reach? Again, I would argue that the presentation in the old testament can't be read literally, but with the understanding that it was as understood by the people who were retelling it and eventually writing it. But if you were alive 2500 years ago, if I explained single cell and other simple organisms that created energy based on thermal energy released from the earth, maybe they'd simply associate that with the plant life as well.

Again, to be clear, I'm not defending a young Earth theory. I don't subscribe to that. Nor do I present myself with any authority on this subject.

Bible is pretty clear about plants cal - grass, trees, herbs (named in verses 11 and 12) all appeared before the sun...

But, I thought that is what we were going for here a 'literal' interpretation of the old testament - that D'Souza is 'forcing' the old testament to parallel the big bang theory - in the beginning there was light - the 'bang' - so it equates. But Genesis isn't about the big bang - it is about a story that people could understand - that put God as part of creation. God is easy to understand, big bang - not so much. God unifies the Jews - gives them a common history, common 'rules'. The belief in a single God strengthens them and gives them an identifier.

Much of the old testament are the stories and the history of a people - and that people's relationship with their God. The stories don't have to be 'true' to us, today, they reflect the people's knowledge of their world at that time. But, just because those are 'stories' it doesn't diminish God. I don't know why people fight so hard to try to justify the Bible's stories. All civilizations have 'stories' that explained things before science, but that doesn't diminish the civilization, it just shows growth and a further understanding of the world, or universe around us. And, maybe in the end, a better understanding of God.
 
That would, again, not be consistent with any theory of science or of materialism.

All science assumes a cause and looks for what that cause is. If you take away that assumption ALL empirical reasoning falls apart, and science is empirical reasoning.

It can 'always been' shag - there wasn't time before the big bang
 
Bible is pretty clear about plants cal - grass, trees, herbs (named in verses 11 and 12) all appeared before the sun...
I just addressed that in the previous post in a way to avoid a battle of scripture. But, even when I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, you seem to do things that are either ignorant or done deliberately to mislead.
You quote Genesis, but you do so in a way that lacks proper context and is just wrong.

Genesis: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening [1] and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

But you don't quote this passage until 1:11 and then claim that plants and tree were created without sunlight and that the sun and stars weren't created yet.

Honestly, you're like the kid I knew growing up who would cheat playing board games. Everyone I knew was honest so the first couple times the guy landed on "free parking" during a game of monopoly, I took him at his word. Then I started counting the spaces for him and moving his piece to the 'right' spot on the board.

And...if you're going to say that the "lights in the firmament" equate the the creation of the cosmos, I can just as easily argue that it has to do with the Earth's atmosphere.

But, I thought that is what we were going for here a 'literal' interpretation of the old testament -
Again, you can't be confused here. This point has already been addressed on this very page. Is it possible that you simply don't understand it, despite having read everything, in it's context, with an effort to find clarity. Or do you merely skim through things, taking things out of their full context, in an effort to distort perceived weaknesses?

I don't know who the "WE" you're speaking of is.
There is no collective "we" in this thread.

that D'Souza is 'forcing' the old testament to parallel the big bang theory - in the beginning there was light - the 'bang' - so it equates.
I don't think he's "forcing" it at all.

But Genesis isn't about the big bang - it is about a story that people could understand - that put God as part of creation. God is easy to understand, big bang - not so much. God unifies the Jews - gives them a common history, common 'rules'. The belief in a single God strengthens them and gives them an identifier.
A subject for another day.

The stories don't have to be 'true' to us, today, they reflect the people's knowledge of their world at that time. But, just because those are 'stories' it doesn't diminish God.
And the examples, like the one I provided written by D'Souza while there are others, provides an example of where a biblical account of an event is actually reinforced by our modern scientific understand. In fact, the biblical account makes more sense as our understanding of science expands.

And in making that statement, it by no means should imply that the bible should be read or considered some kind of science text book. That's not what it's for, nor should it be used in that capacity.
 
Science. It's common knowledge. Go look it up, you seem to like googling things. I'm not going to do busywork for you, as I realize you're not interested in having an honest debate. Maybe if you'd answer the points I've already made...but we know you can't do that.

no, it's YOUR science, and not common. let alone most is bad or not even science.
keep babbling. your actually funny in defense of nonsense.
i'll rebut a couple. since i don't project myself as a physicist like you, i'll c/p these.
http://www.nmsr.org/humphrey.htm

1. Carbon 14 dating

Humphreys also discussed how he and his fellow creation scientists have been finding radiocarbon in diamonds, regarded as far too old (billions of years) to have any amount of fast-decaying radiocarbon left in them. In this regard, I had contacted Dr. R. E. Taylor, of the Department of Anthropology at University of California, Riverside, and the Keck Laboratory for Accelerator Mass Spectrometry at University of California, Irvine. Taylor is a serious radiometrics scientist. Like Humphreys, he also looks for radiocarbon in diamonds, but Taylor does so as a way to monitor instrument background and noise. Diamonds are so old, they shouldn't have any residual radiocarbon (C14 decays with a half-life of under 6,000 years), and indeed, they don't. So diamonds are as close to a carbon-containing C14 "blank" as scientifically possible.

My take on their problem is that they [RATE creationists] apparently have little or no understanding of operational details involved in AMS technology and the nature of how ion sources and AMS spectrometers work since, as far as I know, none of these people have any direct research experience in this field. They are thus not aware of the many potential sources of trace amounts of radiocarbon in the blanks and how a detector can register the presence of a few mass 14 events that are not radiocarbon.
Regards, Ervin Taylor

2. Zircons in granite

Dr. Humphreys' Young-Earth Helium Diffusion "Dates"
Numerous Fallacies Based on Bad Assumptions and Questionable Data
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/helium/zircons.html
(too long to c/p)

6. Comets should have burned up by now

there's no source of new ones? can you say kuiper belt?
but there are many who know nothing of the solar system and are easily fooled.

the arguement
According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about five billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of less than 10,000 years.4 Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical “Oort cloud” well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.5 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations. Lately, there has been much talk of the “Kuiper Belt,” a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Some asteroid-sized bodies of ice exist in that location, but they do not solve the evolutionists’ problem, since according to evolutionary theory, the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it.



the rebuttal.
What is the problem with this argument? Here's what I (Dave Thomas) wrote over a decade ago, and have had published on the Internet since January 16, 1998:

Comets disintegrate too quickly (maximum age: 100,000 years). Humphreys notes that comets lose some mass with every trip around the sun, claims that there is no source of new comets in the solar system, and then concludes that comet lifetimes (10 to 100 thousand years) provide an upper limit to the age of the solar system. But Humphreys' comet theory fell apart recently because a source for new comets, the Kuiper Belt (predicted by astronomer Gerard Kuiper in 1951), has been actually photographed and confirmed by several teams of astronomers. Humphreys responds to these discoveries by saying that the supposed "Kuyper Belt" [sic] doesn't help scientists because it must be supplied by the unproven Oort Cloud; and that even if what he calls the "Kuyper Belt" existed, it would exhaust itself of comets in a short time (say, a million years). But he has his astronomy backwards - the Kuiper Belt contains the remains of the "volatile" (icy) planetesimals that were left over from the formation of the solar system - numbering in the hundreds of millions. If anything, it is the Kuiper Belt that supplies the more remote Oort Cloud, as some icy chunks are occasionally flung far away by interactions with large planets. There is a source for new comets, and the fact that we still see comets does not prove the solar system is young.
In the eight years since, Humphreys has learned that "Kuyper" is really spelled "Kuiper." That is all he has learned - his astronomy knowledge is still abysmal. The Kuiper Belt is no longer a "supposed" source of comets, it is a documented source, with over 800 Kuiper Belt Objects discovered since 1992

8. Not enough sodium in the sea

well, mr physicist should be able to understand this.
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/salt.htm
a little too lengthy to post here.

just the summation.

2006 Comments

It was pointed out to me on an internet bulletin board that Russ Humphreys had criticized this page on AiG's website at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/2006/0331.asp

The italizized part is what Humphreys says, my replies are interspersed.

No, Glen Morton is not at all correct on this, and sincere creationists can continue using sea sodium as an evidence for a young world. Morton showed you an early letter in his correspondence with Steve Austin and me, but not our replies. He also did not show you how he terminated the correspondence.
This is because they refused to grant me permission to publish their replies. Then they criticize me for not publishing their responses. Lets see if they criticize me for posting this.

Morton thinks the mineral albite would form permanently on the ocean floor, taking sodium out of seawater. But what happens is this: indeed albite forms in mid-ocean vents and takes sodium out of the high-temperature sea water. But then when the albite gets into cooler water, it decomposes into the mineral chlorite and releases the same amount of sodium back into the sea water. That is why albite (in any significant amounts) is found only at the mid-ocean ridges and nowhere else. So his �albite sink� would change into a �chlorite source�, and the net effect on sodium in the sea would be zero.

I note that Russ doesn't provide a reference for this. Albite is a volcanic mineral as well. It is NaAlSi3O8. It isn't very soluble in water, as is salt. And indeed it takes years to weather out of a rock. "Albite is the last of the feldspars to crystallize from molten rock" http://www.galleries.com/minerals/si...ite/albite.htm

And when Russ says that at cooler temperatures in water it is dissolved, he is correct. But what he is NOT telling you and his readers is the RATE at which dissolution occurs. Here is the data

�Historically, dissolution rates have been measured indirectly using powdered materials. Rates from albite powders (pH 9, 80�C, Burch et al., 1993) correspond to a surface normal retreat velocity of 33.2 � 10-7 nm/sec. In vertical scanning interferometry, this rate is quantified by direct observation of the mineral surface. In our single crystal experiments under otherwise identical conditions, this velocity demands an overall change in surface height of 7.5 nm after 624 hours, if distributed homogeneously.� M. S. BEIG AND A. LUTTGE, �Albite dissolution kinetics: is it the pits?� Goldschmidt Conference Abstracts 2002 A63 http://www.the-conference.com/2002/g.../Authors_B.pdf

At such a rate of dissolution, one would need 100 million hours for one meter worth of albite to dissolve. That is 13 million years. That is what Russ ISN"T telling you.
That may seem technical to you. So here is a non-technical way you can judge for yourself whether Morton is right or not: find out whether he has published his �albite sink� theory in a peer-reviewed secular geochemistry journal. The foremost one has the Latin title Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta. Such journals would be overjoyed to publish his theory if it were correct, because it would solve the 75-year-old problem Steve and I pointed out, the great imbalance between ingoing and outgoing sodium. The secular science establishment would probably award Morton the Nobel Prize for it!

Russ is wrong. They don't give a Nobel for geology. But I would suggest asking Russ why they don't tell you the albite dissolution rate.

Moreover, Morton would be very proud to have his theory published in such a journal and would be sure to mention it prominently on his website. Let me know if you find such a citation there. If you don�t, then you know Morton is blowing smoke at you.


If truth is determined by having a theory in a journal, I would ask where precisely is the journal article for Austin and Humphrey's claim that salt proves the earth is young? They have none. Maybe there is a bit of smoke blowing on their side, perchance?




your refusal to show where you get all this misinformation speaks volumes.
 
a shorter page which quickly dismisses many of your claims.

http://www.cesame-nm.org/oldwebsite/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=34&page=1

Self-styled "creation physicist" D. Russell Humphreys, an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Creation Research, often lectures on "Evidence for a Young World" at creationist seminars and fundamentalist churches around America and the world. He claims to provide evidence that the Earth is not billions of years old, but just a few thousand years old, as required by some Biblical literalists. Humphreys says that if the universe and Earth are as old as scientists think, then spiral galaxies would be wound up into balls, there would be no comets, the sea floors would be choked with sediments, the ocean would be much saltier, and there would be billions of tombs of dead cavemen.

In his lectures and brochures, Humphreys tells his audience that he will show how various processes provide maximum ages for the Earth. Some of these `maximum ages' can be as long as 100 million years, but they are invariably less than the scientifically-determined age. Humphreys claims that the true age of the Earth is set by the smallest such maximum age, which conveniently turns out to be just a few thousand years. That is, he looks at several very dubious age estimates, and declares the youngest such "estimate" to be correct. It's like looking at three estimates of the "maximum" distance from Albuquerque to Los Angeles: a thousand miles, 100 miles, and 10 feet. By Humphreys' logic, the smallest "maximum" distance (10 feet) is the best, most accurate value, because it "fits comfortably within the maximum possible" values!

When Humphreys talks at churches or creationism seminars, he is introduced as a physicist at Sandia National Laboratories, a respected federal science institution. But Humphreys' conclusions on the age of the Earth are not supported by Sandia. His work in an engineering group responsible for designing bomb fuses is completely unrelated to his creationist activities. And Humphreys doesn't present his young-earth arguments to Sandia colleagues, even though many Sandia programs involve radiometric dating and the age of the Earth. In fact, when a Sandia colleague recently requested his data on problems with radiocarbon dating, Humphreys refused to supply it because it was "non-work related." Humphreys' employment at Sandia certainly does not mean that this prestigious institution endorses his radical views on the age of the Earth.

Here are brief discussions of Humphreys' five favorite young-earth arguments, and of his attack on radiocarbon dating.

(1) Galaxies wind themselves up too fast (maximum age: a few hundred million years). Humphreys shows off a computer simulation in which a very simple "galaxy," a line of stars about a center point, develops a spiral shape. This spiral then winds up and disappears in just a few hundred million years. In this way, Humphreys claims to "prove" that galaxies can not be billions of years old. In his super-simple simulation, however, the stars are attracted to a "galactic center" - but not to each other! As a result, more distant stars move more slowly about the "galactic center," just as planets do around our Sun. But Humphreys fails to mention that the situation in real galaxies is far more complex than this: for one, real stars attract each other with large gravitational fields. Only the outermost stars of real galaxies have the "Keplerian" orbits he assumes, while the inner stars of a galaxy can move very differently, often almost as a rigid disk. Humphreys dismisses one of the modern theories of spiral formation, "density wave theory," as too complex, but it's really his ideas that are far too simple. Humphreys' strawman galaxy does not prove that galaxies are young.

(2) Comets disintegrate too quickly (maximum age: 100,000 years). Humphreys notes that comets lose some mass with every trip around the sun, claims that there is no source of new comets in the solar system, and then concludes that comet lifetimes (10 to 100 thousand years) provide an upper limit to the age of the solar system. But Humphreys' comet theory fell apart recently because a source for new comets, the Kuiper Belt (predicted by astronomer Gerard Kuiper in 1951), has been actually photographed and confirmed by several teams of astronomers. Humphreys responds to these discoveries by saying that the supposed "Kuyper Belt" [sic] doesn't help scientists because it must be supplied by the unproven Oort Cloud; and that even if what he calls the "Kuyper Belt" existed, it would exhaust itself of comets in a short time (say, a million years). But he has his astronomy backwards - the Kuiper Belt contains the remains of the "volatile" (icy) planetesimals that were left over from the formation of the solar system - numbering in the hundreds of millions. If anything, it is the Kuiper Belt that supplies the more remote Oort Cloud, as some icy chunks are occasionally flung far away by interactions with large planets. There is a source for new comets, and the fact that we still see comets does not prove the solar system is young.

(3) Not enough mud on the sea floor (maximum age: 12 million years). Humphreys mentions reports that 25 billion tons of sediment erode from the continents each year, and that plate tectonic subduction removes only 1 billion tons of sediment from the ocean floor per year. He then claims that it would only take 12 million years at most for the excess 24 billion tons per year to produce the current amount of sediment - at an average depth of about 400 meters. But once again, Humphreys' model is far too simple. The depth of sediments on the ocean bottoms is not a uniform 400 meters, but varies considerably. And much sediment never gets to the oceanic floor, but is trapped instead on continental slopes and shelves, or in huge river deltas. Over the years, some of these continental slopes can accumulate several kilometers of sediment, while others can even become part of mountain ranges in continental plate-to-plate collisions. Neither erosion nor subduction are expected to be constant processes over millions of years, and they are simply not very good clocks. Humphreys' strawman ocean floor does not prove the Earth is young.

(4) Not enough sodium in the sea (maximum age: 62 million years). This is another example of processes which vary greatly being used as "constant-rate" processes for dating the Earth. Humphreys finds estimates of oceanic salt accumulation and deposition that provide him the data to "set" an upper limit of 62 million years. But modern geologists do not use erratic processes like these for clocks. It's like someone noticing that (A) it's snowing at an inch per hour, (B) the snow outside is 4 feet deep, and then concluding that (C) the Earth is just 48 hours, or two days, in age. Snowfall is erratic; some snow can melt; and so on. The Earth is older than 2 days, so there must be a flaw with the "snow" dating method, just as there is with the "salt" method. (Several other creationist "proofs" of a young Earth involve similar extrapolations.)

(5) Not enough stone age skeletons (Upper limit for duration of Stone Age: 500 years). Humphreys assumes that the Stone Age had a constant population of about 1 million, with 25 years average between generations. Thus, if the Stone Age lasted for 100,000 years (like those "evolutionists" think), then there should be 4,000 generations, times one million people per generation, for a total of 4 billion buried bodies to be found. Humphreys notes that only a few thousand have been found, and concludes that the actual duration of the Stone Age is only 500 years. He provides no justification for his model of grave discovery rates as a "clock." Perhaps, in a thousand centuries, some of those burial sites might just have been eroded away, or covered with tons of soil or debris. Predators or vandals might have disturbed some of the graves, and subsequent generations of cavemen may have even re-used some of the same traditional burial sites. In any event, it is clear that the number of discovered Stone Age graves does not provide a very accurate "clock" for finding the age of the Earth.

Finally, Dr. Humphreys rejects scientifically-accepted methods for determination of the Earth's age, such as radioactive dating. He often shows a slide indicating that carbon-14 (C-14) radioactive dating methods are inaccurate because "the ratio of radioactive (C-14) to normal (C-12) carbon was at least 16 times smaller before the flood [of Noah]," and therefore that "Evolutionists overestimate C-14 ages." Humphreys' statement on carbon ratios is based on a short piece in the journal Nature (C. J. Yapp and H. Poths, Vol 355, p. 342, 23 Jan. 1992), which refers to a 16-fold increase in atmospheric carbon in rocks from the Ordovician Period. These rocks are actually about 440 million years old. Now, the relatively rapid decay of carbon-14 prevents its use as a clock on anything older than about 50,000 years. Using C-14 to find the age of a rock which is millions of years old is a lot like trying to look at Mars with a microscope instead of a telescope; it's simply not the right tool for the job. Humphreys has presented this "analysis" of radiocarbon dating for years, even though he cannot point to even one age estimate which has been incorrect because of the "pre-flood" carbon dioxide levels.

Humphreys creates a slick, scientific-sounding argument for a "young" Earth, but in the process seriously misrepresents modern consensus. All serious dating methods (radiometric age dating, dendrochronology, ice core analysis, varve deposition, and more) yield ages far older than Humphreys' methods.

D. Russell Humphreys breaks all the rules of science. He uses flawed logic, overly simple models, and twisted data to sell his young Earth. Caveat Emptor!


and yes, i'm using c/p, since fossten set the precedent early on.
 
Where is your evidence for evolution? How many times have I asked this question so far and gotten no answer?

where is your evidence for a young earth? where is your evidence for supernatural manifestations?
you've put up a lot of claims, but no evidence. how many times have I asked?
i can't rebut statements without how these conclusions were drawn. i've picked on humphrey's above as being the most prominent one with these views who has put forward his misinformationalist science.
maybe you have sources with infallible science behind them?
 
Most traditional Christians have no problem with a creation account that extends over millions, even billions, of years.

Foss is so rigid on the 6 days of creation in Genesis that is the young earthers.
 
See what you opened up Cal? Now we have to suffer through hrmwrm's "wall 'o' text" rebuttals! ;)

Easiest way to deal with 'em...
This message is hidden because hrmwrm is on your ignore list.
Ah, much easier to maintain a civil discussion. :)
 
Bottom line is that you believe something that offers you no evidence to support it, and you do so because of (God knows why) an antipathy toward religious things.

It's okay to have faith in something, but you could at least, in the spirit of honesty, admit that that's what you're doing.
One can have faith in religion for personal strength through bad times, a moral code, and thoughts of the afterlife but I wouldn't call a plumber if I needed heart surgery.
Religion is appropriate in it's place and for it's purpose but IMO it is inappropriately sticking it's nose into science and politics.
Science and scientists aren't sticking their noses into religion and masquerading as clergy the way some clergy types are masquerading as scientists by taking on scientific pretences.
 
See what you opened up Cal? Now we have to suffer through hrmwrm's "wall 'o' text" rebuttals! ;)

Easiest way to deal with 'em...

Ah, much easier to maintain a civil discussion. :)


I think hrmwrm is providing some compitent rebuttals to foss's contentions.
 
Religion is appropriate in it's place and for it's purpose but IMO it is inappropriately sticking it's nose into science and politics.
The politics issue is probably left best to a different thread. But it is worth pointing out that politics and political interests are sticking their nose into religion at least as much as the other way around (liberation theology being a prime example). The aggressors in the culture war are those with radical political interests, not those with religious interests who are mostly on the defensive.

Science and scientists aren't sticking their noses into religion

Ben Stien's movie "Expelled" implicitly begs to differ.

Also, your statement depends on how you define "Science". If you include the various social sciences into that then you statement is, at first glance, false.

The fact is that there is and historically has been a huge overlap in both the fields of science (under any definition), politics and religion. Attempting to create a difference is attempting to avoid reality by creating a false dichotomy.
 
where is your evidence for a young earth? where is your evidence for supernatural manifestations?
you've put up a lot of claims, but no evidence. how many times have I asked?
i can't rebut statements without how these conclusions were drawn. i've picked on humphrey's above as being the most prominent one with these views who has put forward his misinformationalist science.
maybe you have sources with infallible science behind them?
Keep dodging. You strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
 
Not a personal attack - but I do think it is in very bad form when you cut and paste and don't credit source.
Clearly you didn't read my response fox...

I don't have to credit a source that a) I contributed to and b) I have permission to use without citation.

Or maybe you'd prefer I cite myself as a source, like you did? :rolleyes:
 
sting question - does acceptance of the Big Bang theory, or evolution, or any science that seems to contradict the Bible, really make you either a non-believer or a bad Christian - as Foss seems to indicate. To be good christians we had to believe that the earth was the center of the universe for a long time - we got over that. So, why would it seem so odd that evolution or the big bang would be any different. God reveals things to us all the time.
You certainly like spreading lies, don't you fox...:rolleyes:

Show me where I said that.
 
Well, first of all - I totally debunked your silly spiral galaxy thing - and until you answer that, I see no reason to continue on with the rest of your little list. If you actually want to debate - lets start with that one (it is one of the easiest for most people to understand - why the spiral galaxy axiom doesn't disprove the big bang theory).

All you did was introduce a wild speculative alternate theory that has no evidence to back it up. That's not the same as debunking. Proof by assertion doesn't make your argument.
Now for the whole 'Thinking Small'....

I know God fairly well foss - but, I can also imagine other universes, the 'big bang' etc. My faith in God doesn't preclude shutting off my brain and not looking at viable, scientific ideas regarding the beginning of space and time, as well as how humans came to be.
Now you're arguing that your faith in God is better than mine. Could you BE any more condescending?:rolleyes:

By the way, your position on abortion is, while unrelated to evolution, certainly a good example of shutting off your brain (trying to convince yourself that an unborn baby isn't human - gimme a break) and living in denial. You liberals shut off your brains all the time. You might as well get off your high horse and can the insults.

However, your God (or at least 'you') seems to be threatened by looking at new horizons.
And now you're getting inside my head, Doctor foxpaws...:rolleyes: Did you get that internet psychiatry degree online? Does your faith include God telling you to insult people?
My God isn't diminished by the Big Bang, evolution, or any scientific theories - yours obviously is.
The Bible contradicts evolution. The two are mutually exclusive. When you study and learn about original sin and the consequences, get back to me.

Talk about small thoughts...

God is in everything, and is with everything - including the big bang and evolution, they are not mutually exclusive.
Not according to the Bible. But now you're repeating yourself. Running out of new arguments eh fox...
 
I just addressed that in the previous post in a way to avoid a battle of scripture. But, even when I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, you seem to do things that are either ignorant or done deliberately to mislead.
You quote Genesis, but you do so in a way that lacks proper context and is just wrong.

<snip>

But you don't quote this passage until 1:11 and then claim that plants and tree were created without sunlight and that the sun and stars weren't created yet.

Nope - there is just some 'cosmic light' until verse 14, that is when the sun and the moon and the stars were all created - it is very obvious in the text. So, the plants came before the sun, in fact the earth came before the sun - all we had were light and dark before - no sun - just some sort of cosmic 'who knows where it is from' light. Otherwise on day 4, God didn't do anything.

The stories in the old testament are often just that-stories. If you want to believe in Adam and Eve Cal - that is fine - but it is a story - passed down through many generations of a people to create a cohesive history. The beginning, as told by Genesis isn't some amazing insight into the big bang theory - it is a story.

I realize it is dangerous for some to go down the story route - because then the Bible doesn't sit on its pedestal as 'next to divine' and it doesn't contain just "truths". Because if the story of Adam and Eve is just that, a 'story', than is the New Testament also just a story? Is the Bible a house of cards?

If your faith is such that you depend on a exact truism from the Bible - then you make certain things 'fit' the descriptions brought forth in the Bible. You force 'fit' the big bang to mirror Genesis, you somehow work around fossil history with bizarre interpretations of the text. In the end, it makes some 'faithful' just look like they have their head in the sand - rather than just stating that how we understand the world has changed, that those stories in the Bible were a connection to God, that those people could understand. Science isn't God's enemy.

And...if you're going to say that the "lights in the firmament" equate the the creation of the cosmos, I can just as easily argue that it has to do with the Earth's atmosphere.

Nope - either God didn't do anything on Day 4 or...
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day
He created the Sun the Moon and the Stars -

I don't think he's "forcing" it at all.

Yes he is, because he has to make the Bible as a 'total truth' or risk having the Bible questioned. He seems to feel if the Bible is questioned than all of Christianity is in question.

And in making that statement, it by no means should imply that the bible should be read or considered some kind of science text book. That's not what it's for, nor should it be used in that capacity.

So, why are you defending it as such - or at least placing into discussion people who believe the Bible should be viewed just that way. That we need to teach creationism as science - just as it is portrayed in the Bible.
 
All you did was introduce a wild speculative alternate theory that has no evidence to back it up. That's not the same as debunking. Proof by assertion doesn't make your argument.
Now you're arguing that your faith in God is better than mine. Could you BE any more condescending?:rolleyes:

Nope - my faith is mine - yours is yours - they are totally different.

And the theory about the galaxies is fairly well known - I provided a link to one source - here is another that indicates that spiral galaxies were formed sometime after the big bang (once again no time frame on when they started - so we don't know how old a spiral galaxy is) with the introduction of electromagnetic vortexes. Spirals are probably no where near as old as you indicate.

By the way, your position on abortion is, while unrelated to evolution, certainly a good example of shutting off your brain (trying to convince yourself that an unborn baby isn't human - gimme a break) and living in denial. You liberals shut off your brains all the time. You might as well get off your high horse and can the insults.

This isn't for this thread foss - and I have never, ever said that an unborn baby isn't human - To me it is, however, that is a matter of my faith. I will not impose my 'faith' onto others, as you would.

And now you're getting inside my head, Doctor foxpaws...:rolleyes: Did you get that internet psychiatry degree online? Does your faith include God telling you to insult people?
The Bible contradicts evolution. The two are mutually exclusive. When you study and learn about original sin and the consequences, get back to me.

You insult me constantly foss - you actually take it to a very personal level - so, therefore, your 'brand' of Christianity appears to allow this type of behavior. So, why would you worry about mine?

The Bible also said that eating pigs was a bad idea

Leviticus 11:7-8
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

Deuteronomy 14:8
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

However Easter Ham contradicts the Bible - They are mutually exclusive. ;)

However, ah - original sin -


Romans 5: 17-19
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

There is a problem with the removal of the story of Adam and Eve and the hope of the New Testament - and it all comes down to 'original sin'. So, do we need the redemption of Jesus, if there isn't a direct line to 'original sin'? Which there isn't if were are products of evolution.
 
You certainly like spreading lies, don't you fox...:rolleyes:

Show me where I said that.

What does this mean then...

Evolution's hypothesis that the universe took billions of years starts with the assumption that there is no God who created it in 6 days. All evidence must fit around that premise.

This statement indicates that you cannot believe in God and evolution.

If it doesn't mean that - what does it mean foss?
 
Keep dodging. You strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.

i see. you're not going to provide the source of your misinformation other than humphrey's. (who's been thoroughly debunked)

tell me foss, what is your explanation of the grand canyon?
or that there are new stars that have formed where older, larger stars have gone supernova?(hint: look into nebula)
and the rocky mountains? and the himalayas?
i guess thats where that supernatural/ doesn't abide by physics/natural laws magic comes in.
none of the above can happen within a timescale to suit your view.
 
foxpaws said:
God has always been, he doesn't have a 'beginning'. Why does the universe have to have 'beginning'? The material necessary to create the universe, whether 'big bang' or 'ray' or whatever road you want to go down, has always been.

You can understand God has always been - correct? No beginning, no end. The material in the universe also has 'always been'. Same concept.

Why can you accept one, and not the other?

Simply put, the space-time asymmetry of the universe precludes the possibility of an oscillating, eternal universe. Your theory that the universe has ‘always been’ could have worked prior to the 1980s, but model after model of the universe proves the need for an absolute beginning. This was further confirmed by work done within the past five years and it has lead to a fascinating book that recently came out called New Proofs for the Existence of God by Fr. Robert Spitzer.

(And as a promo for the book which I think you should buy, Fr. Spitzer holds two PhD’s – one in physics and one in philosophy. Not only is he a Catholic priest, but in recent years he’s also worked for NASA and was interviewed by Larry King on the subject of Science and God’s existence. “New Proofs” is an excellent and rational approach to science and faith, showing that at their core they do not contradict)

Besides the fact of space-time asymmetry, matter itself cannot logically be eternal (existing without end). This is because matter is by nature composed of finite parts which are measureable and thus requires time (which is also finite and measurable). Indeed, only spiritual realities can be eternal. Take numbers for example, the number 2,603,884,910 cannot be found in the material universe – but the immaterial number line in which it can be placed can go on ad infinitum in either a positive or negative direction. Thus only spiritual realities can go on and on.

Now we could say that numbers (along with any other ideas) are eternal, but they are simply that: ideas. They lack any further existence than existing in the mind and being the basis for our material existence (for the universe is built on the laws of mathematics just as the human person lives on the laws of morality), but we can only place such eternal ideas in an eternal mind to think them. This mind is the mind of God.

Some have said that to look to God for the universe’s prior-grounding or creation would lead us to ask the same thing of God. Who made Him? From where did He get His existence? Well, from a philosophical perspective we can simply say that God’s essence is existence. Or in other words, we know that everything needs to get existence from something else – but the thing it gets existence from also needs to be compatible with the thing being created. For example, a human and a tiger cannot mate because the biological materials between them are not compatible for offspring. But the same is true for things across the board, from atoms to chemical compounds. There must exist some compatible, raw being from which to give rise to the first material things. We need sheer existence itself: an eternal, partless, non-material reality which can in turn give rise to all temporal, material things with their necessary parts.

A transcendent, eternal, infinite, spiritual God is the only hope for a material universe.

But we can also say that since God’s nature is existence, He cannot not be. Indeed, He revealed Himself to the Jews as “I AM” (see Exodus 3:14). The classical conception of God is the only one that fits the bill needed for: 1) a self-existing being, and 2) adequate grounding for a material universe.

On a side note, I’d be interested to hear your conception of God. It sounds like you may have some pantheist leanings (i.e. God is in the universe, present everywhere and lacking any transcendent quality whatsoever).
 
And we come back to the issue of materialism. ;)
 
Some have said that to look to God for the universe’s prior-grounding or creation would lead us to ask the same thing of God. Who made Him? From where did He get His existence? Well, from a philosophical perspective we can simply say that God’s essence is existence. Or in other words, we know that everything needs to get existence from something else – but the thing it gets existence from also needs to be compatible with the thing being created. For example, a human and a tiger cannot mate because the biological materials between them are not compatible for offspring. But the same is true for things across the board, from atoms to chemical compounds. There must exist some compatible, raw being from which to give rise to the first material things. We need sheer existence itself: an eternal, partless, non-material reality which can in turn give rise to all temporal, material things with their necessary parts.

beginning to sound like shag with his circular reasoning.


Your theory that the universe has ‘always been’ could have worked prior to the 1980s, but model after model of the universe proves the need for an absolute beginning. This was further confirmed by work done within the past five years and it has lead to a fascinating book that recently came out called New Proofs for the Existence of God by Fr. Robert Spitzer.

we were discussing the plausibility of a young earth and whether there is reliable evidence for it.
so, you're saying god has always been, but the universe was created by it. are you referring to the universe complete, or only our seeable universe?
 

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