joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Not everyone.
Anybody upgrade there spark plugs (e3)?
- Thread starter jrocc
- Start date
Not everyone.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
In the case of the radio, maybe people want features that the factory radios (at the time) don't have.
In the case of the wheels, everybody has different opinions on what looks best.
In the case of the spark plugs, there's nothing to be gained by using a non-oem. The OEMs are reasonable cost, and have a reasonable life span. Despite the snake oil claims, there are no performance gains to be had by using different plugs.
2002_lincolnLS
Custom User Title
by that token there would be no performance loss with a non oem plug, there are always ways to improve so there could be gains through different plugs just like any other parts
All I was saying is that the previous debate was to not deviate from oem.. so then any one who says that and uses non oem parts is being hypocritical.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Perhaps it is possible (for at least some of us) to believe that some parts are best sourced as OEM, and others may be better sourced as aftermarket. I don't see hypocrisy in that.
As to the plugs, if the OEM plugs are optimized to the application (our engine), then use of a non-optimal plug will reduce performance. This does not at all imply that there is any way to improve performance if you are already at the best possible performance.
2002_lincolnLS
Custom User Title
with the internal combustion engine there is always room for improvement the efficiency is really a curve were there are infinite amounts of changes that could be made to increase performance until you are approaching 100%.
seeing as our engine is probably closer to 40% or less efficiency which means we are not building the performance to the best of its ability there for our plugs are optimized to be as good as they need to be to run not as good as they could be..
I mean we could do the derivative if we truly new the efficiency curves of your engines
then to find were on the curve we are as we approach infinity or in our 100%
seeing as our engine is probably closer to 40% or less efficiency which means we are not building the performance to the best of its ability there for our plugs are optimized to be as good as they need to be to run not as good as they could be..
I mean we could do the derivative if we truly new the efficiency curves of your engines
then to find were on the curve we are as we approach infinity or in our 100%
Rell.....I guess I live dangerously since I successfully ran NGK in my last engine and in this new one. Call me marcdanger.
Well NGK is oem just doesnt say motorcraft on it.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Of course the overall performance of the engine can be improved. What I am saying that you don't believe is that changing to a different spark plug isn't going to make any positive change. I present no proof of this, but I assure you that you won't find an credible proof that it could.
I see where this debate is going, and I bow out.
2002_lincolnLS
Custom User Title
I respect everything you say Joe, trust me I am not trying to argue to argue, but these are the debates that create improvement upon what we have. with out opposition we go nowhere.
I appreciate your side and words
I appreciate your side and words
jolinc01
Dedicated LVC Member
I used NGK last time just because I've always had good luck with them, and they were much cheaper than OEM.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
But they are or were OEM.
I recall hearing that some dealers were trying to deny warranty coverage because they found NGKs installed. The thing is that these were installed at the factory. The factory had to explain it to them.
TooManyToys
Well-Known LVC Member
Guys, I once again throw my experience here. I may have said this before on this site, but I know I’ve stated this on many of the other automotive forums I’ve been on.
I worked for 30 years for an automotive supplier that sells products both as an OEM supplier and within the aftermarket world. The company was Federal-Mogul and you know them by that name as well as Champion, Moog, Wagner, Fel-Pro, Abex, National, Anco and a host of other names.
OE parts go through more testing then any aftermarket product will by a factor of 10x to 100x. OE parts will be very specifically targeted towards that particular vehicle platform and both the supplier and vehicle manufacturer will spend years proving out the synergism. While some components are awarded directly to one supplier and the teamwork begins, other components go through competitive testing until one year pre-launch, the best man winning. And best man is usually not low price.
The aftermarket world cannot run the same test programs for an application. It’s too expensive for the price point compared to winning the OE volume, which often includes the warranty parts supply. Not necessarily the service parts network, but the warranty parts.
That last sentence usually gets me into a debate. Since we are within the Ford family, Motorcraft is the best example. Buying a Motorcraft part is not necessarily getting you the part that came on the vehicle when it was on the production line. There is not one brake part in a Motorcraft box what was production line. You can get OE production, but it’s what we called “blue box”, with a specific part number difference then Motorcraft.
The same is true for other service parts, but often it depends on the volume sales. For suppliers and for Ford’s contract pricing, it may not be viable for a supplier to tool up for a specific part due to volume, so then all of the replacement parts will be from the OE supplier. It gets tricky.
NGK was the OE suppler for the LS motor and we see that on the OE spark plugs. Now there may be something very specific developed for that motor’s spark plug, and Ford would hold the contract to that design so NGK could not make that exact same plug for the aftermarket. Or it may be normal products NGK plug and just private labeled for the OE production line. There won’t be any way of finding out. I didn’t take a close look, but I’d bet that the Motorcraft plug is not the exact same as the OE plug. But knowing what we did for Ford, whomever is supplying that plug had to go through a lot more testing and spec review then what they did for their own aftermarket release. And that is part of the reason for the higher price on a “Ford” branded replacement part.
So does that mean that any aftermarket part is not as good as what you can pick up at the dealer? No. The aftermarket can provide a product that solves an issue that occurs in the OE world. While the auto manufacturers spend a lot of time and money on pre-production Qualitative Accelerated Life Testing (and I wrote a lot of PO’s to cover that), it is never possible to test the product in all modes that would be encountered in real life. The failure of the plastics within this platform’s cooling system is a good example. They most likely held up fine in 100,000 miles of dyno testing over 70 to 100 days, but you can’t accelerate the time aging factor perfectly. But for the shorter term problems that creep up within the production time period, the manufacturers will almost spend as much time in months or years re-proving the replacement part. The aftermarket doesn’t have to do this and may have a product when their expertise will allow them to have a better part quickly. Moog does this a lot with their “Problem Solvers”.
So how do I know if the aftermarket part is better then the OE or OE aftermarket part? Unfortunately, we are the testers. And you can’t go by “I’ve had the part in my car for 1,000 miles now and all is good”. There has to be some decent time with the product and the subjective ‘I want to believe it’s better’ aspect has to wear off.
I worked for 30 years for an automotive supplier that sells products both as an OEM supplier and within the aftermarket world. The company was Federal-Mogul and you know them by that name as well as Champion, Moog, Wagner, Fel-Pro, Abex, National, Anco and a host of other names.
OE parts go through more testing then any aftermarket product will by a factor of 10x to 100x. OE parts will be very specifically targeted towards that particular vehicle platform and both the supplier and vehicle manufacturer will spend years proving out the synergism. While some components are awarded directly to one supplier and the teamwork begins, other components go through competitive testing until one year pre-launch, the best man winning. And best man is usually not low price.
The aftermarket world cannot run the same test programs for an application. It’s too expensive for the price point compared to winning the OE volume, which often includes the warranty parts supply. Not necessarily the service parts network, but the warranty parts.
That last sentence usually gets me into a debate. Since we are within the Ford family, Motorcraft is the best example. Buying a Motorcraft part is not necessarily getting you the part that came on the vehicle when it was on the production line. There is not one brake part in a Motorcraft box what was production line. You can get OE production, but it’s what we called “blue box”, with a specific part number difference then Motorcraft.
The same is true for other service parts, but often it depends on the volume sales. For suppliers and for Ford’s contract pricing, it may not be viable for a supplier to tool up for a specific part due to volume, so then all of the replacement parts will be from the OE supplier. It gets tricky.
NGK was the OE suppler for the LS motor and we see that on the OE spark plugs. Now there may be something very specific developed for that motor’s spark plug, and Ford would hold the contract to that design so NGK could not make that exact same plug for the aftermarket. Or it may be normal products NGK plug and just private labeled for the OE production line. There won’t be any way of finding out. I didn’t take a close look, but I’d bet that the Motorcraft plug is not the exact same as the OE plug. But knowing what we did for Ford, whomever is supplying that plug had to go through a lot more testing and spec review then what they did for their own aftermarket release. And that is part of the reason for the higher price on a “Ford” branded replacement part.
So does that mean that any aftermarket part is not as good as what you can pick up at the dealer? No. The aftermarket can provide a product that solves an issue that occurs in the OE world. While the auto manufacturers spend a lot of time and money on pre-production Qualitative Accelerated Life Testing (and I wrote a lot of PO’s to cover that), it is never possible to test the product in all modes that would be encountered in real life. The failure of the plastics within this platform’s cooling system is a good example. They most likely held up fine in 100,000 miles of dyno testing over 70 to 100 days, but you can’t accelerate the time aging factor perfectly. But for the shorter term problems that creep up within the production time period, the manufacturers will almost spend as much time in months or years re-proving the replacement part. The aftermarket doesn’t have to do this and may have a product when their expertise will allow them to have a better part quickly. Moog does this a lot with their “Problem Solvers”.
So how do I know if the aftermarket part is better then the OE or OE aftermarket part? Unfortunately, we are the testers. And you can’t go by “I’ve had the part in my car for 1,000 miles now and all is good”. There has to be some decent time with the product and the subjective ‘I want to believe it’s better’ aspect has to wear off.