AC non functional

Lincoln LS

  1. berny

    berny LVC Member

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    Hello! First I want to say thank you to everyone here, I have successfully solved many problems on my 00 V8 LS. I have a new problem that I am hoping to get help with. I have searched and read several threads but I am not finding a solution or next step.

    The air conditioner does not work. I borrowed a set of gauges to read the low side pressure, it measures 0 pounds, and yes it was connected properly, when I turned the valve I heard gas moving and the needle twitched. The compressor does not turn. I put a 12oz can of R123a with dye in it to identify the leak, and have not been successful. When I disconnected the can it sprayed some refrigerant and dye around the low side inlet valve, and that is the only place where there is dye, and it sure looks like it was my disconnecting it that caused the dye, not an actual leak. The compressor still does not turn. I have run the climate control diagnostic and it reports no codes. The fact that the the AC blew cold last time I tried it 6 months ago, but now has no refrigerant points to a catastrophic failure of some kind. The air coming out feels hot to me. Here are my questions.

    If the compressor won't turn, then refrigerant won't circulate, how do I find my leak?
    When compressors fail and stop pumping, do they also start leaking? It seems wierd I have 2 simultaneous and unrelated AC problems.
    The air feels hot from the vent on AC, which points to a bad DCCV, did my whole AC system just implode at once?
    Some cars compressors will not turn on without enough refrigerant, is the LS one of them?
    Is there a way to prove the compressor is the broken before I start throwing parts at the problem?
    Is there a particular spot in the AC system where leaks are more likely? The engine bay is crowded and it is hard to examine all the lines, a hint would help.

    I would really appreciate any advice.

    Thanks!
     
  2. joegr

    joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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    You LS uses R134a!
    The compressor will not engage with low (or in this case no) refrigerant.
    You have a big leak, and you will have to find it first.
    BTW, you can't just add refrigerant to a system with no refrigerant. A full vacuum hast to be pulled first. You also likely need compressor oil. You will also have to replace the receiver/dryer.
     
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    • 04_Sport_LS

      04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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      ^ ^ ^
      Yeah... probably a good thing the compressor didn't cycle.

      Take it to a reputable shop and have them do an evac and recharge, (with dye), and go from there.

      Once the issue/leak is found and repaired. They'll have to do the evac and recharge again... plus receiver-dryer

      Hopefully it's just an o-ring or pressure switch somewhere... and not the actual compressor.

      You're probably looking at $100 or so... just to find out what the problem is.
       
    • 04_Sport_LS

      04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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      6 months ago is a long time... and if you ran your defrost any time in the last 6 months... then it wasn't that long. If it hasn't been working for 6 months... depending on where you live... you probably would have noticed the windows fogging up.
       
    • 04_Sport_LS

      04_Sport_LS Dedicated LVC Member

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      ^^^^^^^
      I think that's what he intended to type. Blame it on the phone keypad. You LS does too. ;)
       
    • berny

      berny LVC Member

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      Yeah sorry for the typo about the refrigerant. Definitely used r134a. I thought I was being so smart not saying "freon" like every one else does. My truck uses actual freon so I do know the difference.

      I did not know I had to pull vacuum before adding the refrigerant. Since I did not, and still added refrigerant, it makes sense that my compressor did not turn? It is designed not to because there was residual moisture or what not in the system? After I added it it did stay for a short time, I would have thought that would be enough to get it spinning. I guess I am lucky it did not.

      I might consider taking it to a shop, but I have had terrible luck with that in the past. I can borrow the vacuum pump from O'Reilly's.

      The procedure here is to pull vacuum, then fill it with a can of refrigerant mixed with dye and oil. That will hopefully circulate enough refrigerant with dye to identify the leak, right?

      Then I fix the leak, replace the dryer, then pull vacuum again and fill with refrigerant/oil?

      Lots of times when a particular part of a particular car fails, it fails the same way for many models of that same car. The LS (like every car) has several known issues, with the COPs being the biggest. Is there a particular place where the AC system likes to leak? Any hints on where to check first? Especially considering all the R134a leaked out, has anyone heard of that happening before? The engine bay is so crowded it is really hard to follow every inch of every line. Maybe it will be obvious.

      My girlfriend drives the car mostly, it failed someone in the last 2-6 months, I am not sure exactly when. I was just trying to illustrate that this doesn't sound like a slow leak.

      Thanks all for the help, I really appreciate it!
       
    • joegr

      joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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      ...

      You system was at zero. That means air and moisture got in. That's why it needs a good vacuum. If it were only a little low, then yes you could add without pulling a vacuum or replacing the dryer. Note that these cans of oil, dye, refrigerant, enhancers, leak stop, ... are all crap. You just want cans of plain pure R134a. You buy the pag oil as a liquid. You can get that with dye mixed in. You need to remove and drain the compressor, and then refill if with about 5 oz of oil. (This is a guess that assumes there are still 3 oz in the rest of the system, minus the dryer.) You also need to fill with exactly the right amount of R-134a (Suva).

      The factory charge had UV dye in it. You need to find the leak source and correct that before doing anything else. Two common leak sources are the scroll control valve o-ring and the low and high side port valves. Anywhere there is a connection is also a good place to check. It would probably be wise to replace all the o-rings now anyway. Anywhere it is leaking should be dirty/oily.

      The clutch locks out if -
      System pressure is too low.
      System pressure is too high.
      Evaporator temperature is too low.
      Engine temperature is too high.
      Engine idle is too low.
      WOT.
       
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      • berny

        berny LVC Member

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        This is what I was looking for! Thank you so much! I did not know the stock charge had dye in it.
        So to summarize:
        Find the leak, there is no reason I can't do that today, some where on AC system there will be oil/dirt/dye. Thank you for the suggestions where to look first.
        Fix the leak.
        Remove the compressor drain and fill with oil mixed with dye. Replace compressor.
        Replace receiver/dryer.
        Pull vacuum
        Fill with proper amount of r134a

        Great advice, I will get started. Thank you!
         
      • berny

        berny LVC Member

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        I finally was able to get a look at the car. It is a bit challenging because it is my girlfriend's daily driver. I think the leak is on the AC condenser. The dryer also has some gunk on it but I think that has been there quite awhile. It threw me for a minute because the leak doesn't glow. I checked the low and high side ports for leaks. The high side sits on the dryer and may have leaked but I can't tell. See picture. I couldn't find the scroll control valve so a hint as to it's location would be helpful.

        Pic 1:Top of dryer/high side port

        Pic 2 and 3: condenser.

        I really appreciate the help and want to make certain I found the leaky part before I start throwing money at it.

        20190605_153709.jpg

        20190605_161127.jpg

        20190605_161134.jpg
         
      • joegr

        joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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        The scroll control valve is in the [scroll] compressor. There is cover for it on the back side of the compressor. The o-ring that seals this cover is where the leak will be, if it is leaking there. It makes the whole bottom half of the compressor oily.

        While it would seem unusual for the condenser to leak there, that does look like it is or has.
        You have to replace the dryer anyway. If I was this far into it, I would replace both service port valves. Buy the OEM ones from Ford. I thought that aftermarket would be safe there, but I found out the hard way it wasn't. I'd also get the correct o-rings to change out all the other easy to get to connections. I'd skip the ones to the expansion valve and evaporator unless there is clear evidence of leaking there.
         
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        • berny

          berny LVC Member

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          Great! Thank you. I checked on the compressor including the back and bottom and didn't see any sign of a leak.

          Maybe I got really unlucky and a rock made it through the front grill, anyway thank you for helping me identify the leak.

          I will change the service port valves. I haven't had the best of luck with the local Ford dealership but I will give them a call.

          I'll change out the condenser and dryer and hopefully that will solve the leak. I will try to find and replace the easier o rings. Any advice or diagrams that had information about their location would be very helpful.

          Thanks!
           
        • berny

          berny LVC Member

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          I want to thank everybody, especially joegr for the help so far.
          I got my replacement parts, the condenser drier, and the high side port assembly with the hoses connected that fits on top of the drier. I got the condenser out without much trouble, and am now working on removing the assembly, what the diagram below calls the "Manifold and tube assembly - receiver drier." One side connects to the condenser, the other side disappears into the engine bay and I can not find where to disconnect it. Any hints and instructions would be greatly appreciated. The disconnect I am looking for is circled in red on the attached diagram. I might try to buy the Chilton manual, but I am worried it won't cover this procedure. I need to get myself a factory service manual, but I don't think I can in time.

          I am going to go remove the compressor so I can refill it with oil. I got the PAG 46 with dye but no other additives. I also got 3 cans of R143a with no additives ready to go.

          20190612_161444.jpg
           
        • joegr

          joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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          • berny

            berny LVC Member

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            Hell yeah! That is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

            Yeah I'm just doing the valve core on the low side. Because the manifold was so dirty, and possibly leaking, I decided to replace it too. Perhaps that was a mistake, and the only possible leak there was the valve, but I wasn't sure and it didn't seem to be much more work or money to do it.

            I would be really frustrated if I got it back together to find I still had a leak.

            In that respect, the connection on the condenser side of the hose that leads to the compressor was really dirty and had some crusty yellow stuff (possibly dried refrigerant?) On it. I got the o ring kit and will replace that o ring, even though it looked in tact. Do you think that hose needs replacing? See pics below.

            1560383754420816459355780770758.jpg

            15603837741423966037336138476571.jpg

            15603837959801287541377025102036.jpg

            15603838331107235610429960878178.jpg
             
          • joegr

            joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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            The hose is probably okay. Replace ALL o-rings that see (open the connection on), no matter how good they may look.
            Refrigerant does not leave any residue. It 100% evaporates immediately. Compressor oil, however, does leave residue. That is likely what you are seeing. The factory dye is yellow-green.
             
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            • berny

              berny LVC Member

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              Great advice thank you. I will replace all the o rings of all the connections I opened, but keep that hose.
               
            • berny

              berny LVC Member

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              Phew!

              Things were going great until I tried to get the compressor off. There is one bolt toward the top rear ( of the car,) that has minimal clearance and a stud inside it! Too deep for a regular socket and a deep socket is too long. I split the difference and cut my deep socket in half but still no luck. I spent longer on that damn nut than the rest of the project.

              I can see the fill hole for the compressor and could add oil, but not drain it. Can I do this without catastrophic damage? Is there a way to estimate how much oil to add?

              Edit: according to this thread,
              Adding PAG oil in Old A/C system with no new parts
              I can get way with adding 2 oz. It says I can even add it to the dryer but since I got the compressor open I might as well put it there. Since I am replacing the condenser, did I lose more oil and therefore need to add more?
               
              Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
            • joegr

              joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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              I have replaced the compressors on both my 04 and my 06. In both cases, it was four long bolts. I recall that a couple of the bolts couldn't be removed completely from the compressor before it was dropped and rotated some.

              s6x~us~en~file=n0000618.gif~gen~ref.gif s6x~us~en~file=n0000618.gif~gen~ref.gif

              1. Remove the drive belt from the A/C compressor pulley.
              1. Loosen the compressor manifold bolt and detach the compressor manifold.
                • Discard the O-ring seals.
                • To install, tighten to 21 Nm (15 lb-ft).
              1. Disconnect the field coil electrical connector.
              1. Remove the 4 A/C compressor bolts.
                • To install, tighten to 25 Nm (18 lb-ft).
              1. Remove the A/C compressor.
               
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              • berny

                berny LVC Member

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                Thanks!
                I'm having trouble even loosening that one bolt. It would be the top right in the picture. The diagram doesn't show it but there is a stud that makes it impossible to use a regular socket. There isn't enough clearance to use a deep socket. Any advice on that particular bolt? I can't be the only one that has run into this problem.

                What about just adding compressor oil to the compressor while it is still attached? In the other thread you talked about it like it wasn't a problem.
                 
              • joegr

                joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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                If you really have a stud there, then it's not factory. Maybe someone broke or lost the correct bolt and did that instead?

                You can pour the oil into the dryer. The problem is that you are assuming the compressor has the correct amount of oil in it now. It doesn't (you lost some or all from the leak(s)). If it's only a little low, you will be okay. If it's very low, you will destroy the entire system after running it a while. If you take the compressor out and drain it and refill it, then you know. Roll the dice? Odds are in your favor.
                 
              • berny

                berny LVC Member

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                I will double check that I am removing the correct bolt. It is a threaded stud that had a nut on it. It held a bracket that held a pipe. I'll try to get a picture.

                Thanks for the advice. How much oil would I add? 2 or 3 oz?
                 
              • berny

                berny LVC Member

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                Here are some pictures that show it.

                20190613_071340.jpg

                20190613_071148.jpg

                20190613_071144.jpg
                 
              • joegr

                joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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                I think you are trying to remove something not related to the AC compressor. With more light, I think that the head of the bolt you do need to remove would show up to the left of that one.
                 
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                • berny

                  berny LVC Member

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                  Which hole do I put the oil in on the dryer? Does it matter?
                   
                • joegr

                  joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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                  Doesn't matter.
                   
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