2001 Lincoln LS V8 Catalytic Converter question

Lincoln LS

  1. DaleGrib

    DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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    Are the Catalytic Converters welded into the pipe on the LS ? I was wanting to take the pipes down and check the cats out since I am getting the p0420 code.
     
  2. joegr

    joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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    This shows where things come apart. The two converters and the crossover are all one piece.

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    • DaleGrib

      DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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      Thanks I will start by swapping the sensors around then. I figured there was a not real way of seeing inside expect by cutting or using a camera inside the o2 sensor hole. If that does not move the code around to the other side then I will try a treatment of Cataclean. My tank is full of gas right now so I might try some Seafoam in it as well. And when the car get's down to a 1/4 of tank try the Cataclean if the problems still exist. Does that sound like a reasonable approach ?
       
      Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
    • DaleGrib

      DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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      Here is some live data tonight before I have switched anything around I have to go get the proper socket tomorrow to do my test. The One fuel related test was not supported by my tool but the other data all read that I ran tests on. Is the voltage on Bank 1 Sensor 2 Suspect ? Also just making sure Bank 1 is the passengers side correct?



       
      Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
    • AmsterDutch

      AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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      Yes Bank 1 is passengers side and sensor 2 is past-Cat you can switch the two back sensors I believe and the front sensors but not front with back ....if you swap the two back sensors this may shed some light on the subject ...your local auto parts store should have a O2 sensor socket to purchase
       
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      • DaleGrib

        DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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        Is th
        Grabbing one of them in the morning I had purchased a replacement 02 sensor for the drivers side bank 2 because the when we were putting the transmission pan back in that one had got pinched in the pan and I had honestly before today thought Bank 1 was the drivers side (I am still learning) So I guess that o2 sensor did not get messed up. I was gonna swap them but since I do have a new one coming tomorrow, I think could just swap with the new one and see what the voltage does. If that 02 sensor is faulty could that also explain my hard starting at times? I am pretty sure it can cause the misfires and if so that is all starting to make sense long as the Cat is not the reason in the end.
         
      • AmsterDutch

        AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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        As your oxygen sensor is going bad you may notice your vehicle is running rough, misfiring or running irregularly while idling. Since the oxygen sensor output helps control engine timing, combustion intervals, and the air to fuel ratio, a bad sensor can disrupt these engine functions, causing a rough or irregular engine idle. However on the contrary a Bad/plugged Kitty Cat can cause all sorts of problems also ...but to rule out a bad sensor it’s almost a must that you swap it out with a new one in order to rule this problem out...it’s strange that your not seeing a P0702 or P0704 code if the sensor is bad and/or malfunctioning...what makes this issue so problematic is that a misfire can cause all sorts of issues with O2 sensors also so in order to truly understand what comes first the egg or the chicken you need a proper scan tool and knowledgeable professional mechanic who knows the science of car emissions
         
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        • AmsterDutch

          AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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          Keep in mind that the downstream, post-catalyst oxygen sensor can often be used to differentiate between an ignition- or fuel-related misfire. To illustrate, a misfire caused by a lean A/F mixture will drive the downstream voltage lower because an excess of oxygen is passing through the catalytic converter. In contrast, an ignition misfire will drive the downstream O2 voltage higher because raw fuel and oxygen is being oxidized in the catalytic converter.
           
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          • DaleGrib

            DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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            Can lean or rich both cause a rich fuel smell in the exhaust ?
             
          • AmsterDutch

            AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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            A cat converter is designed to store excess oxygen and use it to burn off excess fuel, oil, coolant that comes into the cat. If there's too much fuel coming into the cat, you wind up with a run away condition where the temp gets so hot that it melts the ceramic brick, totally clogging the exhaust and rendering the cat useless. So what I’m saying is use the post O2 sensor reading to determine if the misfire is due to a lack of fuel (clogged fuel injector, vacuum leak, etc), or too much fuel (spark plug didn't fire so none of the fuel was ignited and is now being burned in the cat instead of the cylinder. So you really DO care whether it's fuel or spark because a spark misfire will destroy the cat, costing you about $1,000. If it's lack of fuel, the cat will just see excess oxygen, which won't destroy it
             
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            • AmsterDutch

              AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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              If there is too much fuel and not enough air, the engine is said to be “running rich”, or “has a rich mixture”. It will have a gassy or rotten egg smell from the exhaust, give off a burning effect to the eyes and will make black smoke. If there is too much air and not enough fuel, the engine is said to be “running lean.” or “has a lean mixture”.
               
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              • AmsterDutch

                AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                Lean sometimes like hot metal burning ...it’s good to check your plug s like I said ...if the plugs are white your engine is running lean ...black your running rich ...just be lucky you’re not in my boat ...I’m running rich and lean ...either a air leak or timing is off :(
                 
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                • DaleGrib

                  DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                  I only smell rich fuel in the exhaust and I will also note that I see a little bit of white exhaust at this point (am assuming that is the extra gas) I also noticed that coil number 2 had a broken clip in the harness so I will be going to the junk yard and grabbing a harness off. From the test's I ran with my scanner the EGR system seems to be working as it should. I am going to grab a fuel pressure sensor while I am there they are only $5 and I just want to see if that could help this thing run better. Then I am going to pull the plugs and see what they look like. If all that fails I am going to go to a shop and have them test for fuel leaks and vacuum leaks and have the injectors tested. I already have an appointment for Wednesday at a good shop with that type of thing. I do have a spare set of Fuel Injectors that are OEM so if it is the fuel injectors the labor is atleast cheap enough. I feel you on your issue I know we have different things going on but it still sucks. I am pretty sure my timing is good the indexes were all lined up on both sides when I had my valve covers off but I guess there could always be more to it than just that.
                   
                • joegr

                  joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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                  The smell is most likely due to the misfires.
                   
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                  • AmsterDutch

                    AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                    It’s no big deal ...it’s just a hobby car not my daily ...I tinker on it now and then and drive it like a bat ut of hell most of the time ...it a fun little sports car when you’re on a budget :) anyway I would run a couple bottles of fuel injector cleaner through the gas or a bottle of MMO it won’t hurt a thing and it may clean out the injectors ...your LS sound s plenty strong from what I can hear on your videos and if the engine isn’t shaking or having a lot of vibration when it’s not misfiring then that’s your best bet ...I would still have your Cats checked out with a temp gun and swap those O2 sensors out tomorrow ...checking the plugs is of most importance though
                     
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                    • DaleGrib

                      DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                      I wish I could say the same thing! I wish mine was a hobby car but mine is what might help me get back on my feet if I can ever get it running correct. I am a disabled veteran ( I don't get paid from it sadly) and trying to find a way to get back to some kind of job as times are very hard. On top of it all that the hurricane put a toll on my roof and my wife can't do it all alone. That one shop screwing me out on the diagnostic really hurt me but I will do what I can. Times are hard but I will never give up. And I thank everyone here for helping me out.
                       
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                      • AmsterDutch

                        AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                        I hear ya, it’s not easy but you’ll get through ...one thing I do know about this car is this it’s like a HOT spoiled woman fun as hell to have around but she will screw you over if you neglect her ...lol...everything will work out just make sure you find out about the next shop and if they ever worked on the Lincoln LS
                         
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                        • DaleGrib

                          DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                          I had the Bosch 02 sensor coming today but a bunch of mechanics and shops told me this morning not to use it and go with NTK. So I placed an order for a NTK one at advance auto this morning gonna go grab it soon and will update you all.
                           
                          Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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                          • AmsterDutch

                            AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                            Thats interesting....what was the reasoning behind their information?
                             
                          • DaleGrib

                            DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                            They said they have had bad experience with them. They said the only ones that they would say to use is Denso, NTK and OEM they said they wouldn't even install a Bosch on their own car as far as o2 sensors go. Ok now that it's been swapped out the p-4020 seems to have stayed away and the misfires have gone away for now. But it is now throwing code P-0172.
                             
                            Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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                            • joegr

                              joegr Dedicated LVC Member

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                              Air leak or MAF issue maybe... (Assume that P0172P is a typo, that not a valid code format)
                              I've heard bad things about Bosch O2 for some applications (including ours) too. They did seem okay on my BMW though.
                               
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                              • DaleGrib

                                DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                                Yeah my bad I dunno what that was! I did only mean to say P0172. I have it going in the shop on Wednesday so maybe they will find the leak. Otherwise I am starting to think it's an injector but I could be wrong the only reason I worry about that is cause of the smell of gas I constantly get and the way the car has issues cranking.
                                Edit: The misfires are back
                                I will check the plugs tomorrow the day got away from me today. Had so much going on. I do have a fuel pressure sensor that I got from the junk yard that looked to be fairly new. They let me grab it free along with a COP harness. Number 2 COP the clip that locks it in place broke off but it is still making good connection. Just gonna replace it to be safe so it can't cause other issues down the road. Is there any safe way to clean the fuel pressure sensor before installing it ?
                                 
                                Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
                              • AmsterDutch

                                AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                                The reason your running Rich and its showing the DTC PO172 code is because its misfiring ...it was probably misfiring intermittently due to bad COP's this was probably why car wasn't firing off right away also ...you weren't getting spark...the other issue (which could be several others) is dirty/malfunctioning MAF, Air Leak, or Cats and O2 sensors are still on the fritz ...I guess it's time to bring it into a respectable shop that can do some testing such as smoke test for leaks and fuel pressure testing, test the catalytic converter, but when they diagnose the fuel/air pressure ratio that will more than likely tell you the culprit...just make sure you're there when they do these test and ask them up front if you can see the evidence and have them explain the readings they are producing
                                 
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                                • AmsterDutch

                                  AmsterDutch Dedicated LVC Member

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                                  Thanks for the explanation about the Bosch O2 sensors ...I know that Bosch is OEM for BMW but I wasn't aware that the Bosch brand O2 sensors didn't marry well with Lincoln LS ...I did however know that the Bosch spark plugs ran like junk in our LS's but since Bosch is the first company to make O2 Sensors and it was the only true direct fit I went with them on my LS...now I'm doubting my decision and wondering if I should go with NTK which is actually NGK ...damn I paid $54 a piece at O' Riellys for those O2 Sensors ...before I even think about replacing them I need to wait until my BlueDriver Bluetooth Scanner adapter comes this Friday so I can finally truly see whats going on with my LS ...I know Forscan is super awesome also but I heard good things about this BlueDriver from a friend who goes to car actions said he scans about 50 cars a week and it even see's the erased codes that dealers and private parties tried to erase and cover up....Shady ppl lol
                                   
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                                  • DaleGrib

                                    DaleGrib Well-Known LVC Member

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                                    Order from advance auto and use their 25% off coupon code you will save about $11 I think I paid about $38 for the NTK today. I always order online and use the codes to save 25% they work every time and they don't seem to limit it. Like today I went in and used my phone and saved since they would not offer the same discount in the store.
                                     
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