Nakoa
Well-Known LVC Member
U Giyz R All Wrong N Dumz My Towncra Will Beet Ne Of U Dudezez Carz. How Cud U B So Dum??!!
03+ LS in Tampa? Don't race a Stang again
- Thread starter FastNsmoothLS
- Start date
......... Uhhh......... What?
Did you mean to say, "You guys are all wrong and dumb. My Towncar will beat any of you dudes cars. Home come you are so dumb?"
It's hard to read dumb....
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
Well, then you MUST know all. I am sorry, the 2001 Cobra is god of all dragracing and road racing. I will hide under my chair now.
Give me a break. Having a license does not prove jack squat about your abilities to assess what makes a vehicle faster on a road course. Being a driving instructor does not either. Having the skill and knowledge to set a vehicle up for RR'ing and driving it are two totally different skillsets so you really just wasted your breath by saying anything about your licenses and instructing knowledge. I guess those that cannot do; teach... Nakoa
Well-Known LVC Member
......... Uhhh......... What?
Did you mean to say, "You guys are all wrong and dumb. My Towncar will beat any of you dudes cars. Home come you are so dumb?"
It's hard to read dumb....
Okay... so you're telling me numbers arn't everything. Yes, you're right they arn't everything... But if the LS is so track worthy, why is it almost no one races their LS? And I'm pretty sure the 99 and 01 cobras aren't too far off from 50/50; what you're forgeting is that the IRS unit in the rear ADDS weight to the rear of the car over a straight axle set-up. Look at the weight figures; the Cobra weighs more than the GT, however the GT has the Iron block 4.6L, Cobra runs an aluminum block... That's a weight savings up front. So where does the additional weight on the cobra come from? The IRS unit that is bolted up to the straight axle mounting points on the Cobra (as ALL mustangs share an identical uni-body). I'd have to do some research to give exact numbers... which I'm not inclined to do right now, but it's much closer to 50/50 than you think.
Again... you are giving a sports sedan a LOT more credit than it deserves. The car was never designed to see track duty; it was designed to be a capible street car.
And back to the numbers... you speak of power curve... and how the LS gets its power higher in the RPM band, and how that's perfect for road courses, and a higher displacement V8 with its power band lower in the RPM scale isn't going to be as good... How do you explain the Viper and their huge displacement V10, along with the Diesels that Audi runs (both have been HIGHLY sucessful in their class)? It's all about transmissions and rear gear ratio; where the engine makes it's power has little to do with it's performance on the track. Gearing is much more important.
So, to make up for the lack of power and torque, in addition to the added weight... in aspects of suspension... you'd have to be pitting a 1960's suspension against a 21st century fully indepedent design.
Again... you are giving a sports sedan a LOT more credit than it deserves. The car was never designed to see track duty; it was designed to be a capible street car.
And back to the numbers... you speak of power curve... and how the LS gets its power higher in the RPM band, and how that's perfect for road courses, and a higher displacement V8 with its power band lower in the RPM scale isn't going to be as good... How do you explain the Viper and their huge displacement V10, along with the Diesels that Audi runs (both have been HIGHLY sucessful in their class)? It's all about transmissions and rear gear ratio; where the engine makes it's power has little to do with it's performance on the track. Gearing is much more important.
So, to make up for the lack of power and torque, in addition to the added weight... in aspects of suspension... you'd have to be pitting a 1960's suspension against a 21st century fully indepedent design.
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
Mis-marketing (didn't generate a large enthusiast following), virtually zero aftermarket, discontinued vehicle, high vehicle price (till recently). Those factors are what come into play that determine that the LS does not see much track-time. Is lack of a large RR following the automatic determining factor for saying "The LS isn't a potentially worthy RR car"? No.
Once again, you are only thinking in absolutes. There is much more that happens behind the scenes that you would be well served to take into account.
Same goes with your Cobra when it comes to giving a vehicle more credit than it is due in a certain area. The Cobra was meant for dragracing and the LS as a Sporty Sedan. Neither were designed to do RR'ing duty, but they can hold their own fairly well in the mix of other stock vehicles on the market today.
Actually, the Cobra was not really designed for drag racing. As with most IRS cars, the Cobra suffers from wheel hop when you lose traction at launch. That's why Ford came out with the solid rear axle Mach 1. To satisfy the drag racers.
NaplesBill
Active LVC Member
First of all, I never claimed anything about the LS power curve. I only supported the assertion that A CAR with less power can make up for some of the deficit with better handling. Nothing more, nothing less.
Let's not forget that the LS chassis is also used by the Jaguar S-Type and the Type-R seems to take advantage of the merits the DEW98 chassis has to offer.
There was a concept at SEMA that took an LS and shaved 600lbs and did a few minor tweaks to the intake exhaust. I don't remember who or what it was called. The problem with tracking an LS is the cost, amount of modification required and lack of off the shelve components. It has a 4-wheel independent, double-wishbone suspension. The possibilities are definitely there. Once these vehicles become more attainable then you may just see a few hobbyist LSs at the track. I really don't think most peope are aware of it's virtues. Are there any Jag S-Types being tracked? I honestly don't know.
It was only in response to 99 Kobra that I stated my opinion that the LS could beat a Mustang IF it were able to achieve the same power levels. This is a hypothetical assertion since it cannot currently do so. What about Rocket5979? What was he able to accomplish with his nitrous setup? Anyone know?
As to the FR500 beating everything in SCCA, isn't that an S197 based Stang? They ARE loosely based on the DEW98(LS, Jag, Tbird) platform. I know some people will say that idea was scrapped, but most of the design phase was already complete so there are many components shared. The differences have mostly to do with the Mustang using struts and a live axle. There is plenty of info on that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_D2C_platform
In regard to the Viper comment, that would be highly dependent on the type of track you choose to race on.
Finally, the assertion that all suspensions after the 60s are equal is quite ridiculous.
NaplesBill
Active LVC Member
I agree completely. The Cobra was designed to be a much more rounded performance car than any of the other SN95 based Stangs were. I love the 03/04 Cobra. I just wish they would produce something like the GT500 with an IRS.
I totally agree that the LS suspension is a great design. I wish the Cobra had it! All of my previous comments comparing the LS to the Cobra are based on the fact that the LS weighs more and has less power. If power and weight were close, the LS would smoke a Cobra. However, they aren't, so the LS can't.
whatsupadrian
Dedicated LVC Member
Theres more to it then just POWER/WEIGHT.
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
You and I both know that the Cobra's are meant more for dragracing than anything else. Just like any other company, Ford tries to satisfy as many customers as possible so they try to let them have their cake and eat it too. That just doesn't happen with anyone but the ordinary enthusiast when it comes to an SVT owner. That was a screw up on Fords part. Ford does that sometimes (like mis-marketing of the LS). The feedback given on the Terminators having IRS and snapping it all the time (unless dropping tons of cash on the DSS Level 2's or 5's) is probably why they decided to go with a solid rear axle on a 3 link system for the GT500's.
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
The power level of a stock N/A 99/01 Cobra was well surpassed by the LS you are mentioning (by about 70rwhp). A Gen 2 LS with CAI, Custom Tune, Exhaust would be pretty close to a bone stock 99/01 Cobra in peak hp (within 10-15 hp at the most), however torque across the powerband would be a different story with the nod given easily to the Cobra.
Starting front the bottom up... I think you took my statement on suspensions since the 60's a bit out of context. It was more of a statement as far as how poor suspension technology was of the period; to get a suspension in the 60's that performs the way the suspensions in a CTS-V, LS, SN95-2 Cobra, or vette would have cost you in the nighborhood of $200k, and would have been entirily unstreetable. Don't think I'm saying the vehicles I mentioned are on the same par with eachother, because they are not... but they do cover what could be argued as the best factory suspensions for the particular type of vehicle and price range of modern cars.
Viper has done VERY, VERY well throughout the circuit; this is nothing more than an example, along with the audi diesels that where your power band is in the RPM curve has little to do with how well the vehicle performs so long as you gear the car correctly to allow you to keep the engine running where it builds its most useable power.
The ford factory racers have been around before the S197 platform; they did very well then, and are doing very well now. However; as for how much of the DEW98 platform they carried over... floorpan design, that's it. And I will be the first to admit, that is where they went wrong; Ford sold loads of Cobras BECAUSE of the IRS (and the under rated 385HP in the 03-04). If they have a lick of inteligence, they will throw another IRS unit into the GT500 atleast as option.
As for why they are not raced... I think the lack of power, weight and price all make the list. If quik gets the super charger marketed to some degree... maybe. But even shavin 600lbs from the car, still makes it's power to weight ratio pretty poor. Still, without more power I doubt it will stand a chance. Spray is nice, but it is much more suited to a drag strip. Reduce weight, increase power and it's a contender. The way it sits; it's nothing more than a sporty sedan.
I'm kind of shocked I havn't heard from Quik on in this thread!!!!
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
Yep spray is suited only for the strip, which is why a single turbo system will be in the LS here soon. It will deliver more power all the time, never needs refill, and will operate at much lower temps than a positive displacement s/c will. In my professional opinion the only kind of blower an LS should see is a turbo.