Getrag 221 Weakness?

[Mechanicboy]

I've read over and over again that the reason they didn't use the 221 with the v8 was because it couldn't handle the torque. My question is what's the weak link? Bearings? Input/Output shaft? Gears? Case? Lubrication, or something else?

I not interested in what may be weak, but what actually fails when these transmissions go.

I read one member that said he went though one of these transmissions that he had excessive third gear fork wear or something but didn't say it that was what caused his first trans to go out.

 

[poniesviii]

I've read over and over again that the reason they didn't use the 221 with the v8 was because it couldn't handle the torque. My question is what's the weak link? Bearings? Input/Output shaft? Gears? Case? Lubrication, or something else?

I not interested in what may be weak, but what actually fails when these transmissions go.

I read one member that said he went though one of these transmissions that he had excessive third gear fork wear or something but didn't say it that was what caused his first trans to go out.

Their designs are inferior. One of their bearing races are pressed in, in a way that you pretty much have to wreck the case to change it, in a place that goes bad often. I don't know the details, but I've been told this a couple times. When talking with non mark viii guys about a manual in my mark, I've been told to stay away from the Getrag because the way they go about designing them is pretty much to create a resale market.

 

[Mechanicboy]

Their designs are inferior. One of their bearing races are pressed in, in a way that you pretty much have to wreck the case to change it, in a place that goes bad often. I don't know the details, but I've been told this a couple times. When talking with non mark viii guys about a manual in my mark, I've been told to stay away from the Getrag because the way they go about designing them is pretty much to create a resale market.

Is this race problem specific to the 221 or a general problem? I to have heard that specific models of Getrag are almost impossible to rebuild but I haven't heard that pertaining to the 221... yet.

I've had races like that before and the trick is to weld a ring all the way around the inside race surface and the race will usually fall out under it's own weight it you position it correctly. Sometime they require a little bit of persuasion but not often. The case being small in an automotive application would present more of a challenge.

 

[craigh]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I have had a problem with mine. At about 10,000 miles I had my transmission replaced. If I remember correctly I had one of the synchro's go out. Instead of rebuilding it the dealer just r and r'd the entire transmission. As a precaution on this transmission, I do change the fluid often, about every 20,000 miles.

 

[Mechanicboy]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I have had a problem with mine. At about 10,000 miles I had my transmission replaced. If I remember correctly I had one of the synchro's go out. Instead of rebuilding it the dealer just r and r'd the entire transmission. As a precaution on this transmission, I do change the fluid often, about every 20,000 miles.

This is the kind of information I want. I wish you were certain of the problem though.

It seems common that they replace the entire transmission even on the BMWs that's common practice.

 

[poniesviii]

Is this race problem specific to the 221 or a general problem? I to have heard that specific models of Getrag are almost impossible to rebuild but I haven't heard that pertaining to the 221... yet.

I've had races like that before and the trick is to weld a ring all the way around the inside race surface and the race will usually fall out under it's own weight it you position it correctly. Sometime they require a little bit of persuasion but not often. The case being small in an automotive application would present more of a challenge.

I couldn't tell ya. He made it sound general. What I can tell you is the guy I talked to is an engineer for Boeing who's built engines as a hobby, one including a project cutting a BB chevy 409 in half crank cam and all making it a 4 cylinder and it was a race engine in a midget car for years afterwards. He said it couldn't be fixed, and that you had to wreck it to fix it. He wasn't talking about a specific model, he was passionate about saying just to stay away.

Wish I could give you more specifics, don't have any, sorry.

 

[XxbmxlsxX]

mine has had a 3rd gear shift fork issue for years. it will wiggle out of third sometimes on hard decel. not really a big deal. id say it was caused by the play in the shifter and linkage when id bang 3rd on the bottle(powershifting) it wouldnt go in gear that accurately and caused wear. with a modified s197 mustang shifter and solid linkage bushings, not rubber, this wouldnt have happened. it would slam straight into gear without the play. sure solid stuff would cause vibrations which is why lincoln didnt use it, but who cares. not sure if the weak link is tranny honestly.
i think a new shifter with stops on it and a smooth engagement would solve the issues i had. any tranny will wear quickly if u miss gears or bang to hard. thats why aftermarket shifters have adjustable stops and billet peices to make it more precise. who knows what it would take to actually grenade this thing when its in gear.

i started the shifter mod but stopped. i need to quit being lazy but my audi s4 is down right now so its getting my attention

 

[Mechanicboy]

mine has had a 3rd gear shift fork issue for years.... ....not sure if the weak link is tranny honestly.

I thought you had a trans go bad on you before your current one?

with a modified s197 mustang shifter and solid linkage bushings, not rubber, this wouldnt have happened. it would slam straight into gear without the play. sure solid stuff would cause vibrations which is why lincoln didnt use it, but who cares. not sure if the weak link is tranny honestly.
i think a new shifter with stops on it and a smooth engagement would solve the issues i had. any tranny will wear quickly if u miss gears or bang to hard. thats why aftermarket shifters have adjustable stops and billet peices to make it more precise. who knows what it would take to actually grenade this thing when its in gear.

i started the shifter mod but stopped. i need to quit being lazy but my audi s4 is down right now so its getting my attention

Yea, I've looked into using a shifter. It looks like the best bet is to use one of the aluminum aftermarket shifters and cut the end off and cut the stock shifters end off with the extra length needed so it will work.

 

[XxbmxlsxX]

still original tranny. just has that 3rd gear shift fork issue. but i had been told that it wasnt rebuidable to just get another one. was gonna get a used one but figured it wasnt really a big deal.

 

[Mechanicboy]

still original tranny. just has that 3rd gear shift fork issue. but i had been told that it wasnt rebuidable to just get another one. was gonna get a used one but figured it wasnt really a big deal.

You still use the juice? What and how many clutches have you gone through?

 

[XxbmxlsxX]

no i put the kit on my audi s4. this is my second clutch. about 30k on it

 

[Mechanicboy]

this is my second clutch. about 30k on it

How many miles on your LS? Did you replace it with an OEM clutch? If you ran the juice on the OEM clutch and it held then it can take anything I'll throw at it.

 

[XxbmxlsxX]

i just crossed 100k. stock replacement. and i welded my dual mass flywheel solid. when i had the motor out this summer clutch looked fine really. with my 19inch tires that spin so bad the clutch gets a bit of a break. if i was stil running drag radials or even good 17s it would see a little more abuse. and my rear is pretty shot one wheelie peelie all day. when the car hooks the clutch gets more wear and tear.

 

[Mechanicboy]

i just crossed 100k. stock replacement. and i welded my dual mass flywheel solid. when i had the motor out this summer clutch looked fine really. with my 19inch tires that spin so bad the clutch gets a bit of a break. if i was stil running drag radials or even good 17s it would see a little more abuse. and my rear is pretty shot one wheelie peelie all day. when the car hooks the clutch gets more wear and tear.

Well that answers my question as to which clutch I'll get. A stock replacement will be just fine for me because I'll be putting less abuse on it then you had with drag radials and the bottle.

I will probably put a LSD in one day, not sure if I'm going to change my gear ratio yet.

It sounds like I should focus on getting a better shifter in there and my trans should be pretty good to go.

So far only one person actually had there's fail and at 10k miles it could easily had been a manufacturer defect.

 

[Mechanicboy]

i just crossed 100k. stock replacement. and i welded my dual mass flywheel solid. when i had the motor out this summer clutch looked fine really. with my 19inch tires that spin so bad the clutch gets a bit of a break. if i was stil running drag radials or even good 17s it would see a little more abuse. and my rear is pretty shot one wheelie peelie all day. when the car hooks the clutch gets more wear and tear.

Well that answers my question as to which clutch I'll get. A stock replacement will be just fine for me because I'll be putting less abuse on it then you had with drag radials and the bottle.

I will probably put a LSD in one day, not sure if I'm going to change my gear ratio yet.

It sounds like I should focus on getting a better shifter in there and my trans should be pretty good to go.

So far only one person actually had there's fail and at 10k miles it could easily had been a manufacturer defect. This sounds promising but I know there has to be more people that have had problems with their 221 so I hope to hear more from people.

 

[craigh]

This is the kind of information I want. I wish you were certain of the problem though.

It seems common that they replace the entire transmission even on the BMWs that's common practice.

I know it was a synchro, just don't remember which gear it was as it was 2003 when it was replaced. I am thinking it was a first gear problem.

BTW, I just hit 119k and still running the original clutch, original brakes and original battery. Car will be 10 years old in May.

 

[Mechanicboy]

Sorry about the double post, don't know how I did that.

craigh, I take it that you are the orginal owner! If so congrads!

I know mine's still on the orginal clutch also, but I'm over 137k miles and it's begining to go. My clutch release and engagment is pretty high up in the travel too.

I'll be replacing it once I get done working on my 79' K5 Blazer I have.

 

[ToeCutter]

I know it was a synchro, just don't remember which gear it was as it was 2003 when it was replaced. I am thinking it was a first gear problem.

BTW, I just hit 119k and still running the original clutch, original brakes and original battery. Car will be 10 years old in May.

original brakes...holy crap,
do you drop a cinderblock attached to a chain out the window to stop

you must downshift alot to stop..but you're still on the original clutch..impressive

 

[Mechanicboy]

original brakes...holy crap,
do you drop a cinderblock attached to a chain out the window to stop

you must downshift alot to stop..but you're still on the original clutch..impressive

Maybe he's a very good driver. Most people brake WAY to late for stops and cause way more wear on their brake systems then is necessary.

The more I drive my LS the easy I drive it because I understand the car better.

 

[ToeCutter]

or drives like an old lady...or lives in the desert where it's a couple hundred miles between towns...or put the car up on jackstands and a brick on the accelerator..or is full of it..or doesn't deserve a sports sedan because he drives like an old lady

 

[craigh]

Yeah, yeah yeah, I have fun driving my LS and I work the gears ALOT!! Many times when I come to a light or stop signal I have downshifted and I don't put the brakes on until about 15 or 20 MPH. I ALWAYS downshift on the highway to slow down, even a couple MPH. I am actually surprised that the clutch is still intact. That's how I understand you should drive a stick.

BTW, I am not the original owner. I bought the car in 2003, got it on ebay. It is a 2000 and when I bought it there was only 7100 miles on it. Bought it from a dealer in Texas that thought he was going to corner the market on 5 speed LS's or something. But he could not sell it in a small Texas town and it sat on his lot for 2 1/2 years to the day when I bought it. Still smelled new!