Stock Market hits record... Where's the MSM?

MonsterMark

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Dow passes 13,000 and the mainstream media doesn't say a peep? Only because a Republican is in office, otherwise, it would be the greatest economy in the past 50 years!
 
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The day GW vetos the Iraq war spending bill, gas shoots up 20c+ / gal to well over 3$/gal. Coincidence?

The stock market might be doing well, but that is only one indicator of the health of the economy. How are the poor people doing, you know, the ones who work paycheck to paycheck and don't have anthing left over to invest in the market? HOW are they benefiting from Wall Street's health? "Trickle-down"?? LOL, yeah right. By the time every dollar from "the market" trickles down to the guy on the bottom, there might be a nickle left for him. Whoopie!
 
The day GW vetos the Iraq war spending bill, gas shoots up 20c+ / gal to well over 3$/gal. Coincidence?
Are you trying to say that a retreat from Iraq would have resulted in lower prices? Because that is what you're implying.

The stock market might be doing well, but that is only one indicator of the health of the economy. How are the poor people doing, you know, the ones who work paycheck to paycheck and don't have anthing left over to invest in the market? HOW are they benefiting from Wall Street's health? "Trickle-down"?? LOL, yeah right. By the time every dollar from "the market" trickles down to the guy on the bottom, there might be a nickle left for him. Whoopie!
Not quite, but you're not interested in an honest debate about the value of supply-side economics. Perhaps in your bizzaro liberal world, where socialism works, people who have no money employ other people. And invest money they don't have to create more jobs and improve the standard of living across the country...
 
How are the poor people doing, you know, the ones who work paycheck to paycheck and don't have anthing left over to invest in the market?

How are the poor people who work doing? Well first, they have a job. They have roofs over their heads. The have at least one car (many have two) though the car(s) may not be brand new. They have AC in the summer, heating in the winter. Usually multiple TV's (though they r not HD TV's, we r looking to remedy that), fridges, microwaves, ect. In fact they r living better then the upper class in most countries around the world. They r where the upper class in america was in the 1970's and maybe even the eighties.
 
Robin Hood (John Cleese): The poor are going to be absolutely thrilled. Have you met them at all?

Randall: Who?

Robin Hood: The poor.

Randall: The poor?

Robin Hood: Oh, you must meet them. I just know you'll like them. Charming people. Of course, they haven't got two pennies to rub together, but then, that's because they're poor.
 
Are you trying to say that a retreat from Iraq would have resulted in lower prices? Because that is what you're implying.

WRONG. What I'm "implying" is that GW sentences this country and our troops to indefinate hell in Iraq and the opportunistic oil "sheiks" (US oil companies) reacts "Oh yeah!, there another excuse to jack the price of gas, we better gouge the consumer while we can." More instability in the middle east, more profits for Exxon!


Not quite, but you're not interested in an honest debate about the value of supply-side economics. Perhaps in your bizzaro liberal world, where socialism works, people who have no money employ other people. And invest money they don't have to create more jobs and improve the standard of living across the country...

Please explain how the folks near the bottom of the income rank with no significant investment in the stock market and who's raises, which haven't even kept up with inflation w/ GW in office, and lag behind increased fuel and health care costs, have BENEFITED from "GW's economy"??? I'm all ears.

shagdrum said:
How are the poor people who work doing? Well first, they have a job. They have roofs over their heads. The have at least one car (many have two) though the car(s) may not be brand new. They have AC in the summer, heating in the winter. Usually multiple TV's (though they r not HD TV's, we r looking to remedy that), fridges, microwaves, ect. In fact they r living better then the upper class in most countries around the world. They r where the upper class in america was in the 1970's and maybe even the eighties.

You "r" either too young to remember the '70s or '80s, or too ignorant and out-of-touch with the reality of the struggle of "poor" people who's incomes are less than $30K / year. But again that's not surprizing coming from you who claim to know 20 gay people who all claim their lifestyle is a "choice". :rolleyes: You can't measure "wealth" by measuring the advancements of technology over the last 30 years that has given us $199 27" TVs or $60 microwaves or $299 computers. And you can't measure the health of the economy by looking at how well the rich are doing and ignoring how well the poor are doing. FYI, the number of people in the US living under the poverty level has been increasing since GW took office.

Gas$ vs CPI: http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/1171278

The cost of gas has been outpacing inflation dramatically over the last few years. If you have to drive 10 miles to work everyday, you are going to be burning the same amount of gas regardless of your income. But the cost of gas effects your overall standard of living much more dramatically if you make only $30K/yr than if you earn $100K/yr. In many cases, construction workers end up driving many more miles to work than the average white collar office commuter and the gas they burn is not reimbursed by their employers. More out-of-pocket expenses for work = less food on the table for the kids. I guess little Jenney has to eat mac-n-cheeze AGAIN tonight.
 
The day GW vetos the Iraq war spending bill, gas shoots up 20c+ / gal to well over 3$/gal. Coincidence?

The stock market might be doing well, but that is only one indicator of the health of the economy. How are the poor people doing, you know, the ones who work paycheck to paycheck and don't have anthing left over to invest in the market? HOW are they benefiting from Wall Street's health? "Trickle-down"?? LOL, yeah right. By the time every dollar from "the market" trickles down to the guy on the bottom, there might be a nickle left for him. Whoopie!
If the only criticisms you have about the economy is that there are poor people and "the guy on the bottom" then you just conceded that Presidenet Bush is doing a pretty good job--though I doubt you would admit it. You know as well as anyone that there will always be poor people no matter who is president. Just like democrats who when they have little to nothing to complain about with respect to the economy, you argue the 'little to complain about' desperate talking point, which is almost always some argument about the poor little guy at the bottom who's isn't benefiting from the president's economic policies. They did it to Ronald Reagan and they will no doubt continue to regurgitate the same lame point over and over in the future. Nobody wants poverty, but this is America so anyone that wants to succeed can. A president isn’t responsible for lifting the poor up by their bootstraps so they can join the middle class. A president’s job is to facilitate economic policies that foster economic growth and opportunities for anyone willing to work.
 
You "r" either too young to remember the '70s or '80s, or too ignorant and out-of-touch with the reality of the struggle of "poor" people who's incomes are less than $30K / year. But again that's not surprizing coming from you who claim to know 20 gay people who all claim their lifestyle is a "choice". :rolleyes:

Already putting words in my mouth again (and my friends and aquantances mouths too, it seems)? I NEVER said I know 20 people who claim their lifestyle is a choice! I NEVER implied that! U r smart enough to know that if u read my comments, but apparently dishonest enough not to care. Love how liberals turn to trashing the person with an opposing view by flat out lying about there comments, views, etc...

My point as it pertains to this debate is that the "poor" in this country are hardly that in comparison to others around the world. In fact we have many "poor" in this country that r overweight, have cell phones, as well as home phones, and many luxury items (sorry they don't have servents to wipe their ass!). As far as being ignorant of the poor, I would qualify as "poor" if your standard is "making under 30k a year". Hell, most of my friends would too.

The only thing I may be "ignorant" of is your unrealistic view of the world, which u superimpose over reality. I obviously understand reality better then u (I actually use my brain).
 
If the only criticisms you have about the economy is that there are poor people and "the guy on the bottom" then you just conceded that Presidenet Bush is doing a pretty good job--though I doubt you would admit it. You know as well as anyone that there will always be poor people no matter who is president. Just like democrats who when they have little to nothing to complain about with respect to the economy, you argue the 'little to complain about' desperate talking point, which is almost always some argument about the poor little guy at the bottom who's isn't benefiting from the president's economic policies. They did it to Ronald Reagan and they will no doubt continue to regurgitate the same lame point over and over in the future. Nobody wants poverty, but this is America so anyone that wants to succeed can. A president isn’t responsible for lifting the poor up by their bootstraps so they can join the middle class. A president’s job is to facilitate economic policies that foster economic growth and opportunities for anyone willing to work.

I'm not complaining about "poor" still existing in the "richest country in the world", there will always be rich and poor. My beef is that WORKERS at the bottom end of the income scales are sliding further and further behind. A true "healty economy" is one where EVERYONE who works gets ahead, not JUST the rich. By getting ahead I mean they can put some $$ aside for kid's college or upgrade their home or car once in a lifetime. The charts below show the facts under GW BuSh, the % of people living below poverty has been rising. In fact the % of people living below poverty rose under both GW and BuSh Sr, while the % had fallen under Reagan and Clinton. Additionally, the rate of inflation has consistently outpaced the average wage increases for ALL workers. This means if the rich are "getting richer" relative to inflation, the poor are "getting poorer faster" relative to inflation. How can you say that "the economy is great" when over half the workers are falling behind?? It is intellectually dishonest. If you think that "A president’s job is to facilitate economic policies that foster economic growth and opportunities for anyone willing to work", then GW has been failing the average Joe, and especially those at the bottom of the income scale miserably.

US Poverty Stats.jpg


Wage-vs-Inflation Chart.jpg
 
"A president’s job is to facilitate economic policies that foster economic growth and opportunities for anyone willing to work", then GW has been failing the average Joe, and especially those at the bottom of the income scale miserably.

Bush has done a fine job, in as far as can be told yet. The policies the president and congress can enact take time to take effect. U can't fully judge the effect a president had on the economy until years after he is out of office. That said, u can look at some indicators, and those r positive. Namely unemployment is low (lower then when he took office) and all the market indicators r positive. U can site statistical evidence that shows that there r more people living below the poverty line, but all that proves is that the polulation has risen. The younger generation is goin to start out "poor". Most people start there after high school and/or college and work their way up. The number below the poverty line could be due to a baby boom, illegal imigrants or any number of factors. There r so many variables that any intelligent person knows that those charts u posted r irrelevant. In addition, u purposly set the bar extremely high when it comes to poverty (put some $$ aside for kid's college or upgrade their home or car once in a lifetime). If u can't afford a kid, then DON'T HAVE ONE. It isn't the governments job to to fix peoples mistakes. As to the other things, all that takes is budgeting. It seems u think someone is poor unless he doesn't have to budget. U don't get to "redefine" poverty to suit your own political ends. People in the "poor" bracket have many luxury items (cell phones, cars, homes, ect.) apparently u have no idea what the living conditions r for the poor. The standard of living of the "poor" in america is constantly going up, just not as fast as the rich. So it is inacurate to say that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The truth is the rich get richer and the poor get richer, at a slower rate.
 
u? Now, maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but it is REALLY that hard to type "you" and "are"? I mean, most of your points are valid, but when you use the letter "u" to save a couple of keystrokes, it kinda takes credibility away from your points and your posts.

I'm not going to touch the typos. We all get them when typing fast.
 
I'm not complaining about "poor" still existing in the "richest country in the world", there will always be rich and poor. My beef is that WORKERS at the bottom end of the income scales are sliding further and further behind. A true "healty economy" is one where EVERYONE who works gets ahead, not JUST the rich. By getting ahead I mean they can put some $$ aside for kid's college or upgrade their home or car once in a lifetime. The charts below show the facts under GW BuSh, the % of people living below poverty has been rising. In fact the % of people living below poverty rose under both GW and BuSh Sr, while the % had fallen under Reagan and Clinton. Additionally, the rate of inflation has consistently outpaced the average wage increases for ALL workers. This means if the rich are "getting richer" relative to inflation, the poor are "getting poorer faster" relative to inflation. How can you say that "the economy is great" when over half the workers are falling behind?? It is intellectually dishonest. If you think that "A president’s job is to facilitate economic policies that foster economic growth and opportunities for anyone willing to work", then GW has been failing the average Joe, and especially those at the bottom of the income scale miserably.
Let’s not forget that while the U.S. may be the richest nation, it remains that the amount of consumer debt is at or near an all-time high. You can’t blame consumer debt on the president when it’s overwhelmingly a product of personal decision making. Americans love to spend money, often to their own peril as evidenced by a large number of people that file for bankruptcy protection. While some file for bankruptcy protection due to job loss, illness or other reason not within their control, the vast majority of bankruptcies are due to irresponsible financial decisions.

As a free-market economy, wages are determined by market forces. Thus, it’s unrealistic to expect everyone to make the kind of money that will enable them live above the poverty line, particularly when the vast majority of those living at or below the poverty line are uneducated and are unskilled workers, and often do not empower themselves to move beyond poverty. This is why I said a president’s job does not encompass literally lifting people out of poverty since presidents can’t dictate personal decisions.

Accordingly, when you say a “healthy economy” is one where EVERYONE that works should be able to “get ahead” and everyone should have sufficient income at the end of the day to put away for college, it sounds like you want a utopian society where regardless of personal decisions everyone “gets ahead.” I disagree with your view that a “healthy economy” means that everyone willing to work must be able to buy a new car and be able to pay for a college education. These things are well within reach of everyone living in the U.S as long as they are willing to take personal responsibility for one’s decisions and future. Granted, there are those that need encouragement and support and I’m all for rational government programs that provide tools to help individuals lift themselves out of poverty—One such program being federal student aid. But don’t expect a president alone to be able to eliminate poverty—nor should a president necessarily be blamed for a higher poverty rates than in previous years.

The graph showing U.S. poverty stats looks like a typical cyclical graph. Should the democrats be elected in 2008 and should the number of individuals living at the poverty level decrease, undoubtedly they will claim it’s because of democrat economic policies. In reality, however, there are many factors associated with the poverty rate, which may or may not have anything to do with a particular president or political party’s economic policies.

Moreover, not one economic expert has claimed President Bush’s economic policies, including his tax cuts, are reckless and, therefore, he, and he alone, deserves full blame for the apparent upswing in the poverty rate. To the contrary, the President’s tax cuts have spurred strong economic growth as exemplified by near historic low unemployment rate and strong corporate revenues. Further, today it was reported that government revenue was at an all-time high for April. So, I think it can be said that President Bush has done his part to encourage economic growth and prosperity.

However, please feel free to be specific about those things you believe the President has done or not done that have directly contributed to a higher poverty rate.
 
Bush has done a fine job, in as far as can be told yet. [That's your opinion] The policies the president and congress can enact take time to take effect. U can't fully judge the effect a president had on the economy until years after he is out of office. [Lame excuse, you RWWs are quick to pin prior hard times on dems, be it the pres or congress] That said, u can look at some indicators, and those r positive. Namely unemployment is low (lower then when he took office) and all the market indicators r positive. U can site statistical evidence that shows that there r more people living below the poverty line, but all that proves is that the polulation has risen. [Wrongo, I plotted percentage, which accounts for population growth] The younger generation is goin to start out "poor". Most people start there after high school and/or college and work their way up. [Oh, and that is different now for GWB?? BS] The number below the poverty line could be due to a baby boom, illegal imigrants or any number of factors. There r so many variables that any intelligent person knows that those charts u posted r irrelevant. [Only an intellegent person would consider facts, an ignorant person dismisses facts as "irrelevant".] In addition, u purposly set the bar extremely high when it comes to poverty [NO, our government set the bar for "poverty", not me.] (put some $$ aside for kid's college or upgrade their home or car once in a lifetime). If u can't afford a kid, then DON'T HAVE ONE. [EXCUSE ME? Who the F$%$K are you to tell someone who WORKS for a living that the "Great American Dream" is NOT theirs to have??] It isn't the governments job to to fix peoples mistakes. [Having a JOB is a "mistake"?? I suppose next you are going to say that only poor people work at jobs no body wants and that is why they don't get fair raises and instead they should "get an education" (tougher to get student loans under GWB) and give those low paying jobs to immigrants?] As to the other things, all that takes is budgeting. It seems u think someone is poor unless he doesn't have to budget. U don't get to "redefine" poverty to suit your own political ends. [AGAIN, the government defined "poverty" to calculate the % under or over it, NOT ME.] People in the "poor" bracket have many luxury items (cell phones, cars, homes, ect.) [You think a home and a car is a "luxury"?? SORRY, a roof over your head and transportation are necessities.] apparently u have no idea what the living conditions r for the poor. The standard of living of the "poor" in america is constantly going up, just not as fast as the rich. So it is inacurate to say that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The truth is the rich get richer and the poor get richer, at a slower rate. [PLEASE explain how the "poor get richer at a slower rate" when every year for the past 3 years their wage increases FELL BEHIND the rate of inflation?? You are NOT "getting richer" if every dollar you bring home doesn't go as far as it did last year.]

:cool:
 
Let’s not forget that while the U.S. may be the richest nation, it remains that the amount of consumer debt is at or near an all-time high. You can’t blame consumer debt on the president when it’s overwhelmingly a product of personal decision making. Americans love to spend money, often to their own peril as evidenced by a large number of people that file for bankruptcy protection. While some file for bankruptcy protection due to job loss, illness or other reason not within their control, the vast majority of bankruptcies are due to irresponsible financial decisions.

WRONG!

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

As a free-market economy, wages are determined by market forces. Thus, it’s unrealistic to expect everyone to make the kind of money that will enable them live above the poverty line, particularly when the vast majority of those living at or below the poverty line are uneducated and are unskilled workers, and often do not empower themselves to move beyond poverty. This is why I said a president’s job does not encompass literally lifting people out of poverty since presidents can’t dictate personal decisions.

Accordingly, when you say a “healthy economy” is one where EVERYONE that works should be able to “get ahead” and everyone should have sufficient income at the end of the day to put away for college, it sounds like you want a utopian society where regardless of personal decisions everyone “gets ahead.” I disagree with your view that a “healthy economy” means that everyone willing to work must be able to buy a new car and be able to pay for a college education. These things are well within reach of everyone living in the U.S as long as they are willing to take personal responsibility for one’s decisions and future. Granted, there are those that need encouragement and support and I’m all for rational government programs that provide tools to help individuals lift themselves out of poverty—One such program being federal student aid. But don’t expect a president alone to be able to eliminate poverty—nor should a president necessarily be blamed for a higher poverty rates than in previous years.

The graph showing U.S. poverty stats looks like a typical cyclical graph. Should the democrats be elected in 2008 and should the number of individuals living at the poverty level decrease, undoubtedly they will claim it’s because of democrat economic policies. In reality, however, there are many factors associated with the poverty rate, which may or may not have anything to do with a particular president or political party’s economic policies.

Moreover, not one economic expert has claimed President Bush’s economic policies, including his tax cuts, are reckless and, therefore, he, and he alone, deserves full blame for the apparent upswing in the poverty rate. To the contrary, the President’s tax cuts have spurred strong economic growth as exemplified by near historic low unemployment rate and strong corporate revenues. Further, today it was reported that government revenue was at an all-time high for April. So, I think it can be said that President Bush has done his part to encourage economic growth and prosperity.

However, please feel free to be specific about those things you believe the President has done or not done that have directly contributed to a higher poverty rate.

http://www.citymayors.com/features/uscity_poverty.html
Unemployment and other employment-related problems lead the list of causes of hunger identified by the city officials. Other causes cited, in order of frequency, include high housing costs, poverty or lack of income, medical or health costs, substance abuse, utility costs, transportation costs, and the lack of education.

Naw, GW hasn't done ONE thing to keep the poor and middle class down. Those free trade agreements that move our jobs across our boarders can't possibly cause a decrease in US jobs. Refusing to clamp down on companies that employ illegal immigrant workers bottom feeding on the low paying jobs certainly helps US workers. Making it more difficult to obtain and pay off student loans sure makes it easy to get a lift up. Pushing new bankruptcy rules to protect the giant, unscrupulous credit card companies when CONSUMER DEBT IS NOT EVEN THE LEADING CAUSE FOR PERSONAL BANKRUPTCY (see above). What has GW done about the rising cost of health care??
 
WRONG!

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html
Great article! A 2005 article, quoting 2001 statistics. By the way, the article states that half of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills, so the second half is no doubt personal debt created by bad decisions. Nevertheless, the cost of medical care is not President Bush's fault. If anything his prescription drug plan has helped a lot of senior citizens avoid financial burden caused by ridiculously priced prescription drugs.

Well, this article does nothing to show why President Bush is at fault for more homelessness. The article states:

Hunger and homelessness continues to rise in US cities said:
Mental illness and the lack of needed services lead the list of causes of homelessness identified by city officials. Other causes cited, in order of frequency, include lack of affordable housing, substance abuse and the lack of needed services, low-paying jobs, domestic violence, prisoner reentry, unemployment, and poverty.

Officials estimate that, on average, single men comprise 51 per cent of the homeless population, families with children 30 per cent, single women 17 per cent, and unaccompanied youth 2 per cent. The homeless population is estimated to be 42 per cent African-American, 39 per cent white, 13 per cent Hispanic, 4 per cent Native-American and 2 per cent Asian. An average of 16 per cent of homeless people is considered mentally ill; 26 per cent are substance abusers. Thirteen per cent are employed; nine per cent are veterans.

The average percentage of homeless families headed by single parents in the survey cities is 71 per cent; and, on average, children represent 24 per cent of the entire population in emergency shelters in the cities. Eighty-seven per cent of the survey cities say that there was an increase in homeless children in the emergency shelter system.
So, your argument that President Bush's policies are to blame for homelessness are not demonstrated by the article. In fact, the majority of homelessness is caused by mental illness, being a single parent (a substantial number, if not most, are likely young unwed mothers who had children when they could least afford it), and drug abusers. Certainly, single parenthood (whether due to divorce or a product of unwed mothers/fathers), are attributable to personal choices, not Bush administration policies. Likewise, homelessness caused by mental illness is more of a state and local government issue than a federal issue. In other words, blame state legislatures and families, in many cases, for abandoning the mentally ill. Obviously, mental illness is not attributable to Bush administration policies. The same goes for drug abuse, which is also a product of personal decision making. At any rate it's apparent that homelessness is overwhelmingly due to the paths that people choose to take rather than the fault of President Bush, or any president for that matter.

Naw, GW hasn't done ONE thing to keep the poor and middle class down. Those free trade agreements that move our jobs across our boarders can't possibly cause a decrease in US jobs.
Are you talking about NAFTA which was implemented under President Clinton?

Refusing to clamp down on companies that employ illegal immigrant workers bottom feeding on the low paying jobs certainly helps US workers.
The Clinton administration had as much to do with ignoring illegal immigration--Though no doubt you don't want to acknowledge it. You can blame both parties for the illegal alien problems.

Making it more difficult to obtain and pay off student loans sure makes it easy to get a lift up.
What's so difficult about paying debt--Just pay it. Federal student loans are meant to help those that can ill afford to pay for school. I have a 4-year degree and when I first decided to go to college I was given a FAFSA grant of about $2,000 and then I worked full time and paid for school. If you put your mind to it you can make it work.

Pushing new bankruptcy rules to protect the giant, unscrupulous credit card companies when CONSUMER DEBT IS NOT EVEN THE LEADING CAUSE FOR PERSONAL BANKRUPTCY (see above). What has GW done about the rising cost of health care??
I totally agree with the change in bankruptcy rules. Thousands of people were abusing bankruptcy law by running up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt and then filing for bankruptcy knowing they could avoid paying their debt. The change was need to curb abuse and encourage people to take responsibility for their spending habits. What's wrong with that?
 
I totally agree with the change in bankruptcy rules. Thousands of people were abusing bankruptcy law by running up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt and then filing for bankruptcy knowing they could avoid paying their debt. The change was need to curb abuse and encourage people to take responsibility for their spending habits. What's wrong with that?

I disagree. I dont think THOUSANDS of people were deliberately running up credit card bills knowing they could BK. Im sure it happened, but it was the exception to the rule. What I think is wrong with it is that Credit card companies should be more careful about who they give cards to and what limits they give them. But this is also coming from a person who has only 1 credit card - and thats only for emergencies and travel. I hate owing people money.

the article states that half of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills, so the second half is no doubt personal debt created by bad decisions. Nevertheless, the cost of medical care is not President Bush's fault. If anything his prescription drug plan has helped a lot of senior citizens avoid financial burden caused by ridiculously priced prescription drugs.

He hasnt done anything about it either, except the prescription drugs which only helps a portion of the population. If we can protect the credit card companies, why cant we protect the American consumer?
 
Dow passes 13,000 and the mainstream media doesn't say a peep? Only because a Republican is in office, otherwise, it would be the greatest economy in the past 50 years!


How is the stock market now?

Dow below 10,000 now.

National Debt -- over $10 Trillion....

Double Whammy: 50-Year Record on Sept. 22. $10 Trillion on Sept. 30, 2008.

The gross national debt compared to GDP (how rich we are) reached its lowest level since 1931 as Reagan took office. It skyrocketed for 12 years through Bush I. Clinton reversed it at a peak of 67%. Bush II crossed that line on Sept. 22 and hit 69% on Sept 30. That's the highest it's been since 1955 (53 years ago).
Bush did three things to skyrocket the debt from $5.7 trillion to $10 trillion:
  1. He lowered taxes on the rich (by far the biggest item).
  2. He invaded Iraq instead of winning in Afghan-Pakistan (another $600 B).
  3. He loosened controls on Wall Street.

As it happens, McCain backed all three policies: (1) He backed Bush's tax cuts for the rich and now wants to give them bigger tax cuts. (2) He was gung-ho for the Iraq war from the start. (3) When Katie Couric asked Sarah Palin to name one time McCain suggested regulating Wall Street, she couldn't—because he never did. He crowed in the Wall Street Journal how he was always against regulation.

Obama opposed the first two and said Wall St. needed regulating.

http://zfacts.com/p/461.html
 
1. Actually, Bush's tax cuts increased income from tax revenue...
2. It isn't an either/or thing; the author is rather blatantly mischaraterizing things here..
3. Might wanna check the facts on that one too...

It seems your source is more concerned with spinning then facts, not overly credible...
 
So much for the unbiased nature of your site, Joey.:rolleyes:


Oh please... Like your unbiased whatsoever. Give me a break.

By the way, Joey, who creates more jobs, the rich or the poor?


Good question. Without much thought, I would say the rich. But at the same time, who spends the money on products that make the rich wealthy and thus creating jobs?
 
Good question. Without much thought, I would say the rich. But at the same time, who spends the money on products that make the rich wealthy and thus creating jobs?

I remember living in Florida after the Clinton administration passed a heavy tax on luxury items like speed boats. Only rich people buy them, they can afford it, right?

All of the luxury boat buildings in the area went out of business.
All of boat builders, fabricators, mechanics, fiberglass guys, and installers went out of business.
The buildings closed down.
The marinas slowed down too.
So did fuel sales.
Also the boating good stores started going out of business, more guys lost jobs, eventually all the remaining stores were all consolidated by one mega-nationwide retailer.

Good thing it was only the rich who felt that luxury tax.
 
Good question. Without much thought, I would say the rich. But at the same time, who spends the money on products that make the rich wealthy and thus creating jobs?
Rich people do at first. Remember when the DVD player cost $300 when it first came out? Now you can find a DVD player for $20. It's called economies of scale, and those are reached because rich people purchase luxury items, allowing the manufacturers to make profit and then reinvest those profits back into production. The ultimate goal is economies of scale and maximum volume, which means the entire populace buying units. If you tax the rich, they are less likely to reinvest back into their businesses, and thus less likely to achieve economies of scale, which will keep prices high AND prevent R&D for new products.

And as Cal has pointed out, who do you think makes these products? Middle class workers, that's who. Contractors build luxury homes and yachts, and small businesses supply parts.
 
I remember living in Florida after the Clinton administration passed a heavy tax on luxury items like speed boats. Only rich people buy them, they can afford it, right?

All of the luxury boat buildings in the area went out of business.
All of boat builders, fabricators, mechanics, fiberglass guys, and installers went out of business.
The buildings closed down.
The marinas slowed down too.
So did fuel sales.
Also the boating good stores started going out of business, more guys lost jobs, eventually all the remaining stores were all consolidated by one mega-nationwide retailer.

Good thing it was only the rich who felt that luxury tax.


All of them huh? The entire luxury boat business was wiped out was it?

Rich people do at first. Remember when the DVD player cost $300 when it first came out? Now you can find a DVD player for $20. It's called economies of scale, and those are reached because rich people purchase luxury items, allowing the manufacturers to make profit and then reinvest those profits back into production. The ultimate goal is economies of scale and maximum volume, which means the entire populace buying units. If you tax the rich, they are less likely to reinvest back into their businesses, and thus less likely to achieve economies of scale, which will keep prices high AND prevent R&D for new products.

And as Cal has pointed out, who do you think makes these products? Middle class workers, that's who. Contractors build luxury homes and yachts, and small businesses supply parts.


Nice theory... But wrong. Rich people will always reinvest. What else can they do? Stuff their mattresses? Please.

Oh, and the reason a DVD player was priced at $300 had nothing to do with economy of scale. Its its simple marketing. You price it high and sell XXX units at that price, then 6 months later you drop the price and sell XXXXX units, then 6 months later you drop the price again and sell XXXXXX units... In the meantime, your costs havent changed. You make more money in the long run because some people can afford $300, so why not get it from them before you get to the $200 people and the $100 people. Its called maximizing profit.
 
Nice theory... But wrong. Rich people will always reinvest. What else can they do? Stuff their mattresses? Please.
Tell that to P. Diddy. He's flying commercial now.

Oh, and the reason a DVD player was priced at $300 had nothing to do with economy of scale. Its its simple marketing. You price it high and sell XXX units at that price, then 6 months later you drop the price and sell XXXXX units, then 6 months later you drop the price again and sell XXXXXX units... In the meantime, your costs havent changed. You make more money in the long run because some people can afford $300, so why not get it from them before you get to the $200 people and the $100 people. Its called maximizing profit.

Back to economics 101 for you. First assignment: look up economies of scale.
 
All of them huh? The entire luxury boat business was wiped out was it?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D91430F930A35752C0A967958260

And yeah, the industry was damn near wiped out after the 90s. A couple big companies remained and boought the rest of them up. Where I lived, if I remember correctly, Welcraft went around and bought up all the old brand names and made them their own. Some companies, like Chris-Craft after going bankrupt and sold off, were brought back to live after several years by investors.


Nice theory... But wrong. Rich people will always reinvest. What else can they do? Stuff their mattresses? Please.
Yes, they can. They can just sit on their money, refrain from buying things, or invest in safer markets.
 
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