Loss Of Antifreeze Questions...

LS-jsf

LS-jsf

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We drove just a few miles yesterday (5 miles maybe), stopped to eat and when we came out about 1 hour later, I noticed a leak under the front drivers/middle side of the car. I could see some slight dripping from now what I recall as around the middle/front (?) of the engine underneath. I took a white napkin to it and could tell it was antifreeze. Backed the car up a bit and took this photo. It was about 113 degrees in the shade when I took the photo. Looked under the hood, couldn't see where it may be coming from. Took a chance and drove it home 8 miles. It didn't leak on the way nor once we got home and nothing over night. Temp gauge stayed normal and no codes or anything came up, car ran fine.

There is antifreeze in the reservoir bottle, but only about an inch or so up from the bottom. I noticed the antifreeze is light pink in color, not the gold/yellow that should have came in it. I'm assuming the older couple who owned it since new maybe had someone do a flush and they put in the wrong antifreeze. The car only had 48k on it when we got it last fall. I understand that color doesn't always tell you exactly what type of antifreeze it may actually be. But I'm assuming what's in there may not be correct.

So, anyone have any ideas as to what may be happening? I know all about the plastic parts problem, but so far at least there isn't any signs of anything other than the coolant loss after the short trip and nothing lost or wrong on the trip home. Is it possible it was just so hot out that it caused a quick over heat or something? Where should coolant be coming from exactly when over heating?

Another question, is there another antifreeze that I could buy in place of Motorcraft Gold since my closest auto store doesn't stock it and I'm assuming I'll be flushing out the system one way or another soon anyway. Zerex G-05 is the same, correct? Anyone know what color G-05 is? Thanks in advance for the help everyone!

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I've got an 03 Sport with 150k km and the degas bottle (coolant reservoir) just went. I've got an 05 v6, and its bottle just went. When this happened to me, I had coolant leaking in the exact same place as you.

I'd say given the location, your bottle has developed some hairline cracks (they all do). When my bottle went, ford Canada wanted about $350 plus tax for a new one. I chocked and went to a u-pull junkyard. I found 3 LS's and removed each bottle. Two were 2002 and one was 2003. They were all cracked the same. The cracks didn't feel like they leaked, so I bought them and tested them and they lost pressure. Luckily they accepted returns.

It's possible your hoses have developed cracks, I've seen that on my 03 sport and two of the junked cars. But the bottles were also gone at that point.

From my experience, removing this bottle is a major pain in the a$$. Seriously, it's one of the most difficult jobs I've done. There is no give in the bottom hose that runs along the firewall and through the engine. I ended up installing a longer hose when I changed mine out with a new (wait for it) doorman bottle.

While you could try and check your bottle, it's at the age where they fail and I don't think you will want to do this job twice.

I really don't think your coolant just overflowed, but if you're unsure - buy a bottle of premix or make your own out of concentrate and keep it in the trunk. Drive the car as normal and keep a constant eye on the level. It sounds like a slow leak. Driving harder will make it leak more quickly.

You're ok loosing a bit of coolant here and there, as long as it doesn't get too low and you refill it. I spent 4 months driving my sport with a leak, adding about a liter of coolant every 2 days until I was able to fix it (Canadian winters suck).

The car will go into protection mode if it gets too hot, and will then (quickly) shut down to prevent any damage so I think you're ok to keep driving to make sure you do in fact have a leak, however if you notice the temp gauge move past half, shut the car down immediately, as this is hard on the engine. It won't just blow up though.

I've been using prestone green with no issues. I'm sure others here have their preference, but I've had good results. A bottle of concentrate is an extra dollar usually, and gives you twice as much coolant. I'd suggest mixing your own.

Now the sh!tty part:

Your entire coolant system must be replaced if your bottle is gone. Everyone has experienced this. I fought it tooth and nail and changed one part at a time thinking I was different. When you change one, another fails. It's like trying to tape up a leaking pressure washer hose. It spouts a new leak somewhere else because the entire system is weakened.

I didn't change out all my hoses, and have gotten 20k km with no issues. They looked fine when I changed all the plastic. I'm sure they're on their way, but so far so good.

Good luck, I hope it's just a leak (I can't see that being possible though).
 
Also, you mentioned flushing your system. When I first developed cooling issues, my thermostat housing actually disintegrated inside where the thermostat sits. There was missing plastic and after changing the housing, my car still overheated like crazy. I was convinced there was plastic clogging my radiator (not really likely but I didn't know that at the time).

I figured I needed my radiator flushed, and called a few local shops. The cheapest was around $250 Canadian.

I did it myself with my garden hose fixed onto the radiator (wrapped tape around the hose to make it larger diameter and slid it into the rubber rad hose). I disconnected the inlet and outlet and ran water through it. There was great flow, no clogs.

I only suggest this as an easy alternative to paying someone to do it. This took about 15 minutes and costs nothing. Not sure if that's relevant to you.

The overheating was actually caused by air in the system. If you begin to experience any overheating, follow the official bleed procedure found here exactly. If your bottle is leaking, you're introducing air into the system. A little may go unnoticed but It's important to bleed the air every time you add coolant.

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Thanks for all of that SeaPro. You mentioned you thought it may be a slow leak? This has been the only time it has leaked, the one short trip and then nothing the other short trip home. I always have checked the degas bottle to make sure the level was correct since I had read so many times here about the plastic issue. In fact, I had checked it before we left home on this little trip around town.

Since it didn't leak on the way home, maybe you're correct that the leak is in the bottle, assuming the antifreeze level stayed below the cracks and thus didn't leak anymore...is that possible though? Isn't antifreeze flowing through the whole system (including the degas bottle) as it moves through out the engine/radiator, etc.? I'll add some more and see if the same thing repeats. So I can't just add some antifreeze into the bottle, I have to bleed the air out too, even for this small amount? I guess the days of doing things simply are gone. I have a Jeep Wrangler that I've changed plugs, flushed out the whole system, radiator, changed the antifreeze. Honestly, I'm not much of a mechanic and I don't dare touch anything on this car except the air filter or something simple. You look at these LS's wrong and they make you pay for it it seems. :(
 
From my experience, cracks are likely, but others may have more info on that and say otherwise (hopefully).

You're fine adding more coolant. When I would add new coolant, I would leave the hood up then just get back in the car and rev up to around 1500 - 2000 rpm for a few minutes to build pressure in the system. Then take a coin (a quarter fits perfectly) and loosen the bleed screw to see if any air comes out. This was sufficient for me most of the time. Bleed the air out until a steady stream of coolant comes out. I'd say only do the full bleed procedure when you flush the system or do any parts replacement. Sorry if I was confusing in the above post.

Like I said, I was able to drive for months with my slow leak, I just made sure to keep an eye on it and top it up regularly.

Changing things out on this car can seem daunting, but it's really pretty straight forward. The degas bottle replacement is actually very easy as far as technical know-how. It's just a pain because like most things, there's no room and no give. It's more awkward than anything. I taught myself everything I know about cars doing repairs on this LS. I refuse to pay a mechanic, they generally don't care about your vehicle and charge an arm and a leg. I've got lots of free time when I'm home though. I get why most people don't do their own repair work lol.
 
Here's what the bleed screw looks like. It should be just to the left of your coolant bottle. Sometimes it's tucked away.

*This is not my car lol. Random google image. Filthy haha

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Ok thank you. When you say make sure it has a steady stream coming out, about how many seconds would that be? I'm assuming you can't do it too long or your coolant level would end up a bit low again, yes? Is that a Dorman bottle I see if the photo, it looks like it's 'clearer' than the factory bottle? Thinner plastic too maybe?
 
LS-jsf said:
Ok thank you. When you say make sure it has a steady stream coming out, about how many seconds would that be? I'm assuming you can't do it too long or your coolant level would end up a bit low again, yes? Is that a Dorman bottle I see if the photo, it looks like it's 'clearer' than the factory bottle? Thinner plastic too maybe?
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That's not my car, just a random google image. Not sure on the make. I've been told that the doorman bottle is junk, not too sure on that yet. I've had mine about 20k km and no issues, however people here swear that it's junk. It cost me $100 CAD opposed to $350 from ford. I'm stubborn enough to buy three cheap bottles at this point lol.

You'll only need to bleed it for several seconds. If you've got any air in the system, it will come out immediately. It's never shot out as a steady stream for me, just kind of trickles out around the hose. You should see it spit air at first though, close it when it stops spitting. Maybe 4-5 seconds?

I hope this info helps. You're welcome!
 
That was a lot of fluid on the ground. There may be an inch in the bottle, but that doesn't mean it only lost a small amount of fluid. There is residual that stays in the degassing bottle. So the reason for no more fluid loss may be as you surmised, it's low!

We've had LS's since they first came out, this '03 has 135k on the odo. There isn't a lot of margin with this vehicle cooling system, it can over heat fast and it is a PITA to get all the air out if you're not used to doing it.

If you have a NAPA nearby, they usually have G05 in stock. May not be up front, but a storage area as it's visible area in a small store is valuable for high traffic items.

I would try to refill with the nose down if you have a sloped driveway, start and let it heat up, bleed so you can see a dribble. Check level and fill if needed. Go for a ride around the block, cool, recheck level. There are times after I've done cooling work or flushing where it has taken days before I'm comfortable that ALL the air is out and level stabilized.

All of my cooling system except the radiator was replaced at 100k. I just replaced the radiator, too.
 
I'm wondering how much actually came out. What you can't tell from the photo is I was at the very edge of the parking lot, so it may have been slightly sloped for rain run-off, and that black top was pretty hot even with the shade of the car being over it. If more than what was in the bottle came out, I can't understand why no more came out after leaving the parking lot and driving home?

My drive way is sloped so I will give your idea a try. Not looking forward to the bleeding part in case as you say, it may take several times to get it right. And then of course it will probably start leaking again unless it was just some weird over heating in the 133 temps. I couldn't be that lucky. In under the first 10,000 miles...new tranny, new A/C, power steering pump (knew that was leaking already though) 2 of the coils had been replaced by Ford 10,000 earlier, feeling a very slight miss once in awhile, so have new coils/plugs, haven't put them in yet. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, love the car, but it sure is a pain in the ass.

Thanks TooManyToys & SeaPro.


TooManyToys said:
That was a lot of fluid on the ground. There may be an inch in the bottle, but that doesn't mean it only lost a small amount of fluid. There is residual that stays in the degassing bottle. So the reason for no more fluid loss may be as you surmised, it's low!

We've had LS's since they first came out, this '03 has 135k on the odo. There isn't a lot of margin with this vehicle cooling system, it can over heat fast and it is a PITA to get all the air out if you're not used to doing it.

If you have a NAPA nearby, they usually have G05 in stock. May not be up front, but a storage area as it's visible area in a small store is valuable for high traffic items.

I would try to refill with the nose down if you have a sloped driveway, start and let it heat up, bleed so you can see a dribble. Check level and fill if needed. Go for a ride around the block, cool, recheck level. There are times after I've done cooling work or flushing where it has taken days before I'm comfortable that ALL the air is out and level stabilized.

All of my cooling system except the radiator was replaced at 100k. I just replaced the radiator, too.
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LS-jsf said:
Where should coolant be coming from exactly when over heating?
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there is no place that coolant SHOULD be coming out of, even in an overheat situation. when the car overheats, the coolant can start to boil. when the coolant is boiling the pressure in the system can rise above where it should be be which can cause the Degas tank cap to vent off excess pressure, this could be some coolant in the form of steam, but shouldn't be anywhere near that much coolant coming out to leave a puddle like that, also where it would be coming from should be back more behind the front wheel not front and center. while your car does have a pretty low amount of miles for its age, its age alone puts it deep in the cooling system failure range. I wouldn't be surprised if this is not the last leaking coolant problem you have in the near future.
 
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I always assumed it wasn't if, just when the plastic would go. But the car doesn't get driven that much and it's always got something negative going on with it, just very frustrating.

I didn't understand something you said though. "but should be anywhere near that much coolant coming out to leave a puddle like that, also where it would be coming from should be back more behind the front wheel not front and center." Are you saying if it was coming out of the back of the bottle, the puddle should have been further back from where it was?

1LoudLS said:
there is no place that coolant SHOULD be coming out of, even in an overheat situation. when the car overheats, the coolant can start to boil. when the coolant is boiling the pressure in the system can rise above where it should be be which can cause the Degas tank cap to vent off excess pressure, this could be some coolant in the form of steam, but should be anywhere near that much coolant coming out to leave a puddle like that, also where it would be coming from should be back more behind the front wheel not front and center. while your car does have a pretty low amount of miles for its age, its age alone puts it deep in the cooling system failure range. I wouldn't be surprised if this is not the last leaking coolant problem you have in the near future.
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The thing to do is just keep driving and keep an eye on it. If / when you loose more coolant, refill and start at your bottle. Then check around the thermostat housing for dried white coolant.

Most common failure points seem to be the thermostat housing and degas bottle, followed by the plastic section of your lower radiator hose. The hoses themselves go last because they're rubber. But it's all old.

Once you work out the kinks of these cars they're awesome. I think they're the most frustrating because there's a lack of quality aftermarket parts available.
 
There are reports of the Dorman LS bottles cracking. I know on Powerstrokes they crack way too much. So considering the work of replacing the degas bottle in an LS it's just not worth the upfront savings.

If you've not bled the system before using the bleed screw I can understand the apprehension, but it's easier then filling the reservoir.

I should have given you more info on refilling. There is a specific procedure in the manual and if you can't find it here I can post a PDF. But for the V8 they provide a cap at the top front of the motor to assist in refilling. I usually fill nose up, bleed nose down.

Can you state a little more about how far you backed up before you took the photo? But even with that not actually seeing the slope and lay of the payment it will be hard to understand the fluid spread.

My recent situation of radiator replacement was due to a crack in the upper tank area. Some have reported they see a crack without fluid loss. My crack would only leak when the engine was in overheat, with the high coolant pressures.

I had a radiator fan failure and the overheat condition occured when the the vehicle was stopped for some time. Under normal driving there was enough air flow through the radiator to keep it under control.

Which brings up another general recommendation. Until I had a situation where things really overheated there wasn't much of a warning unless you carefully watched the engine temp gauge. I moved my ELM327 adaptor from my Powerstroke to the LS so I could use my iPhone with Forscan app to better watch the engine data. It's a good, cheap way on providing more monitoring, and using its functions would have tools me there was a fan failure well before having the cooling system tell me.
 
TooManyToys - Thank you for the help. I'm not sure I understood that using the bleed screw is easier then filling the reservior? Don't you normally use both, fill the reservior then use the bleed screw. Or do you just mean the bleed screw is just very simple to use period? ha ha

I'll look for the manual on here so I can see the procedure on re-filling. When you say fill it nose up, meaning the front of the car is up like on an angled driveway? Bleed nose down?

I'm guessing I backed up about 3 feet. I should have taken more photos and from a couple different angles. It was busy there and I didn't want someone running into the back of the car since it was sticking out a bit, plus it was very hot outside. I think the photo I put up here makes the puddle look a bit longer than it really was, maybe the angle I took the photo was not spot on. As I mentioned I did everything kind of quick. I did see something dripping off as I recall around the middle underneath under the engine, not sure, is that where the oil pan is located appox.?

Based on where the leak was hitting the ground, I don't think it was the radiator and I did open the hood then and the upper part at least looked fine, main hose looked like new, same with the plastic part it was connected to. I couldn't see any fliud on the engine anywhere up top at least.

I ues a Windows phone and most apps aren't made for it. :-(



TooManyToys said:
If you've not bled the system before using the bleed screw I can understand the apprehension, but it's easier then filling the reservoir.

I should have given you more info on refilling. There is a specific procedure in the manual and if you can't find it here I can post a PDF. But for the V8 they provide a cap at the top front of the motor to assist in refilling. I usually fill nose up, bleed nose down.

Can you state a little more about how far you backed up before you took the photo? But even with that not actually seeing the slope and lay of the payment it will be hard to understand the fluid spread.

My recent situation of radiator replacement was due to a crack in the upper tank area. Some have reported they see a crack without fluid loss. My crack would only leak when the engine was in overheat, with the high coolant pressures.

I had a radiator fan failure and the overheat condition occured when the the vehicle was stopped for some time. Under normal driving there was enough air flow through the radiator to keep it under control.

Which brings up another general recommendation. Until I had a situation where things really overheated there wasn't much of a warning unless you carefully watched the engine temp gauge. I moved my ELM327 adaptor from my Powerstroke to the LS so I could use my iPhone with Forscan app to better watch the engine data. It's a good, cheap way on providing more monitoring, and using its functions would have tools me there was a fan failure well before having the cooling system tell me.
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I would really recommend buying a bottle of concentrate coolant and mixing it yourself. Like I said above, it's almost half the price. And if you're pouring it on the ground, it can add up if you're not able to repair the system quickly. Roughly 50/50 water and coolant. The exact ratio is more like 60/40, but it's not a huge deal. I've survived -35 Celsius with 50/50.
 
Thanks for the links Joe. Joe and SeaPro, yes I understand not to use 100% antifreeze, I bought a bottle of Zerex G-05 to dilute 50/50 with distilled water for the reasons you mentioned SeaPro. I guess I just use both words for the same meaning which I didn't realize is incorrect.

joegr said:
Correct filling and bleeding: 2006 Lincoln LS Workshop Manual
What you need to do: GenII LS8 Cooling System Overhaul

One reason why: This is why you replace all of your cooling components at once! (Plus helpful links)

Low miles just means fewer hot/cold cycles. The plastics have still been exposed to coolant for 15 years.
BTW, antifreeze mixed with water is coolant. I hope that you have coolant, and not 100% antifreeze.
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LS-jsf said:
I didn't understand something you said though. "but should be anywhere near that much coolant coming out to leave a puddle like that, also where it would be coming from should be back more behind the front wheel not front and center." Are you saying if it was coming out of the back of the bottle, the puddle should have been further back from where it was?
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what I was saying is that IF the car just overheated and the pressure got too high, that it would vent steam out, ant it would vent it off to the side where the bottle is (not in the center of the car) and that looks like too much coolant to come from a steam venting, it looks l=more like enough fluid to come from a leak somewhere.
 
When you said "also where it would be coming from should be back more behind the front wheel not front and center" I thought you were still speaking of an actual fluid leak still, not steam.

Anyway, I took a look under the bottle with a flashlight and can see what appears to have been a leak from the bottle and down. I see a white film and I'm guessing there is a crack in the back of the bottle and when we stopped to eat and there was no more pressure in the cooling system it leaked the coolant out of the bottle, as it never leaked after that including the 8 mile ride home. So it appears I'm going to go through replacing all of the plastic parts. It's been one thing after the other.

1LoudLS said:
what I was saying is that IF the car just overheated and the pressure got too high, that it would vent steam out, ant it would vent it off to the side where the bottle is (not in the center of the car) and that looks like too much coolant to come from a steam venting, it looks l=more like enough fluid to come from a leak somewhere.
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