Why Tax Rate Reductions Are More Stimulative Than Rebates: Lessons from 2001 and 2003

shagdrum

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
6,563
Reaction score
41
Location
KS
Why Tax Rate Reductions Are More Stimulative Than Rebates: Lessons from 2001 and 2003
by Brian M. Riedl

With slower economic growth raising fears of a recession, Washington is abuzz with economic stimulus proposals centered on tax rebates. Tax rebates, however, don't stimulate the economy. Lawmakers currently examining economic stimulus proposals should reject rebates in favor of tax rate reductions.

Tax Rebates Don't Stimulate

By definition, an economy grows when it produces more goods and services than it did the year before. In 2007, Americans produced $13 trillion worth of goods and services, up 3 percent over 2006.

Economic growth requires four main factors: (1) an educated, trained, and motivated workforce; (2) sufficient levels of capital equipment and technology; (3) a solid infrastructure; and (4) a legal system and rule of law sufficient to enforce contracts and contain a functioning price system.

High tax rates reduce economic growth, because they make it less profitable to work, save, and invest. This translates into less work, saving, investment, and capital--and ultimately fewer goods and services. Reducing marginal income tax rates has been shown to motivate people to work more. Lower corporate and investment taxes encourage the savings and investment vital to producing more and better plants, equipment, and technology.

By contrast, tax rebates fail, because they do not encourage productivity or wealth creation. To receive a rebate, nobody has to work, save, invest, or create any new wealth.

Supporters of rebates argue that they "inject" new money into the economy, increasing demand and therefore production. But every dollar that government rebates "inject" into the economy must first be taxed or borrowed out of the economy. No new spending power is created. It is merely redistributed from one group of people to another. (Even money borrowed from foreigners brings a reduction in net exports.)

Supporters of rebates respond that redistributing money from "savers" to "spenders" will lead to additional spending. That assumes that savers store their savings in mattresses, thereby removing it from the economy. In reality, nearly all Americans either invest their savings (which finances business investment) or deposit it in banks (which quickly lend it to others to spend). Therefore, the money is spent whether it is initially consumed or saved. Given that reality it is more responsible to let the savers keep that money for a new home or their children's education, rather than to have Washington redistribute it to someone else to spend at Best Buy.

Simply put, low tax rates encourage working, saving, and investing, which in turn encourages job creation and wage growth. Tax rebates merely redistribute existing wealth.

The Failed 2001 Tax Rebates

While the 2001 tax cuts reduced some marginal tax rates, the centerpiece was tax rebates. These rebates were rationalized as a pre-payment of the reduction of the lowest marginal income tax bracket from 15 percent to 10 percent. Yet because they were not based on encouraging productive behavior, the rebates had little economic impact.

In the spring and summer of 2001, Washington borrowed billions from the capital/investment markets, and then mailed it to families in the form of $600 checks. In the fourth quarter of that year, consumer spending responded with 7 percent annualized growth, and investment spending correspondingly decreased by 23 percent. The economy grew at a sluggish 1.6 percent annualized rate.[1] The simple redistribution from investment to consumption did not create new wealth.

All traces of the rebate policy effectively disappeared by the next quarter. Consumer spending retreated to 1.4 percent annualized growth, and investment spending partially recovered from its steep decline with a 13.6 percent annual growth. The economy remained stagnant through much of 2002.

The Successful 2003 Tax Rate Cuts

By contrast, the 2003 tax cuts lowered income, capital gains, and dividend tax rates. These policies were designed to increase market incentives to work, save, and invest, thus creating jobs and increasing economic growth. An analysis of the six quarters before and after the 2003 tax cuts (a short enough time frame to exclude the 2001 recession) shows that the policies worked:

  • GDP grew at an annual rate of just 1.7 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the six quarters following the tax cuts, the growth rate was 4.1 percent.
  • Non-residential fixed investment declined for 13 consecutive quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. Since then, it has expanded for 13 consecutive quarters.
  • The S&P 500 dropped 18 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts but increased by 32 percent over the next six quarters. Dividend payouts increased as well.
  • The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs--and 5.3 million jobs over 13 quarters.

Critics contend that the economy was already recovering and that this strong expansion would have occurred even without the tax cuts. While some growth was occurring naturally, critics do not explain why such a sudden and dramatic turnaround began at the exact moment that these pro-growth policies were enacted. They do not explain why business investment, the stock market, and job numbers suddenly turned around in spring 2003. It is no coincidence that the expansion was powered by strong investment growth, exactly as the tax cuts intended.

Conclusion

The 2003 tax rate cuts succeeded, because they increased incentives to work, save, and invest, thereby creating new wealth. The 2001 tax cuts, based more on demand-side tax rebates and redistribution, did not significantly increase economic growth. Lawmakers currently examining economic stimulus proposals should reject rebates in favor of tax rate reductions.
 
"rebates," welfare, and pork. That's all we're getting.

The Democrats in power are simply using the "stimulus" plan as a cover to spend on all of their favorite programs. From the basic redistribution of wealth to laying the foundation for universal healthcare.

FDR is constantly hailed for pulling this country out of the depression, but from 1929 to 1936 the country was had experienced absolutely no growth. NONE. Despite all the Keynsian spending, nothing. Furthermore, if government spending was responsible for a strong economy, the Scandinavian countries should be super powers. Of course, that's not the case.

The government is doing EVERYTHING wrong right now.
 
FDR is constantly hailed for pulling this country out of the depression, but from 1929 to 1936 the country was had experienced absolutely no growth. NONE. Despite all the Keynsian spending, nothing.
Really? By what measurement? I realize the latest fad among right-wingers is to bash FDR and downplay the New Deal, but I'm not aware that any of them claiming there was no growth. They just attribute it to other, more arcane explanations. You need to brush up on your talking points.
 
Well one has to actually pay taxes to get a rate reduction or rebate.
Obama wants to give "rebates" to people who don't earn enough to pay taxes.
No doubt they'll go out and buy a shiny or some other status item they don't need to stimulate the economy.
Ah the pride....:rolleyes:
 
What I enjoy about FDR bashing (and he does deserve some of it) is that the right is just depending on economic modeling and speculation. It is science fiction, or alternate reality conjecture at best.

Furthermore, if government spending was responsible for a strong economy, the Scandinavian countries should be super powers. Of course, that's not the case.

Cal, that has to be one of the silliest things I have seen you write... Do you really think that Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland really want to be a part of total world domination? There are people in the rest of the world that don't think like you do, who don't want to subjugate their religious, moral, and capitalistic democratic values onto the entire population of the world.

Scandinavia is quite content in their democratic/socialist world. Just let them be.
 
Really? By what measurement? I realize the latest fad among right-wingers is to bash FDR and downplay the New Deal, but I'm not aware that any of them claiming there was no growth. They just attribute it to other, more arcane explanations. You need to brush up on your talking points.

No, it's been quite popular and wise to bash FDR for more than a half century now. It has nothing to do with "fads." You might be aware of it now because there's an apparent similarity between the failed economics of FDR and what the Democrats in Congress are moving towards today.

FACT: THERE WAS NO ECONOMIC GROWTH BETWEEN 1929 and 1936.
Do you dispute this?

If you determine that it is an accurate statement, will you then acknowledge that the huge spending of the New Deal DID NOT stimulate the economy and huge long term government spending programs are not the answer.
 
FACT: THERE WAS NO ECONOMIC GROWTH BETWEEN 1929 and 1936.
Do you dispute this?

What are you using Cal - GDP? Can we also get rid of the 4 years you have included - '29, '30, '31, '32 that weren't even in FDR's presidency - and even '33 is a little dicey, he wasn't sworn in until March, 1933.

I know, let's compare the first full 8 years ('34-'41) of FDR and the 8 years of GWBush!
 
What I enjoy about FDR bashing (and he does deserve some of it) is that the right is just depending on economic modeling and speculation. It is science fiction, or alternate reality conjecture at best
No. But maintaining that FDR saved the country from the Great Depression is nothing more than a liberal fairy tale.


Cal, that has to be one of the silliest things I have seen you write... Do you really think that Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland really want to be a part of total world domination?
You are in full deflection and spin mode today. My comment had nothing to do with military domination of the world and you're fully aware of that.

Are you prepared to argue that the economies of Europe are strengthened because of their government spending and high tax rates? If that's so, noting the huge amount of government expenditures in those democratic socialist countries, then you'd think that there'd be full employment and a robust economy.
 
Cal, that has to be one of the silliest things I have seen you write... Do you really think that Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland really want to be a part of total world domination?
Red herring alert...
 
Foss- he started it...
If that's so, noting the huge amount of government expenditures in those democratic socialist countries, then you'd think that there'd be full employment and a robust economy.

Unemployment 2008 - Norway - 2.40 %, Sweden 4.5%, Finland 6.9%, Denmark 3.5%

So, Cal - how about it - GDP? Is that what you were looking at when looking at economic growth when you were talking about the FDR years? I think it would be interesting to look at some 'real' numbers...
 
Liberals refute Conservatives by mischaracterizing what they say. Conservatives refute liberals by quoting what they actually say, and explaining why the are wrong.

Foxpaws is a classic example of this statement.
 
First, I think it only fair that we remove the years that FDR wasn't in the white house from Cal's statement. Then, I am just trying to find out what he wants to base economic growth on.

Cal was the one who interjected Scandinavia's socialism. And keeps bringing it up - what is wrong with showing what the unemployment stats really are in northern Europe- when he implies that they are terrible...
 
What are you using Cal - GDP? Can we also get rid of the 4 years you have included - '29, '30, '31, '32 that weren't even in FDR's presidency - and even '33 is a little dicey, he wasn't sworn in until March, 1933.
The point is, economic activity didn't even reach 1929 levels until about FOUR YEARS after FDR took office, and nearly seven years after the crash.

Hoover's government response was wrong.
And so was FDRs.


I know, let's compare the first full 8 years ('34-'41) of FDR and the 8 years of GWBush!
O.k. We can do that. But it should be noted that Bush took office during a recessionary period and then we suffered a devastating attack on American soil that had a catastrophic impact on the economy. Despite this, we had a very quick recovery and a strong economy for the majority of his Presidency.

Roosevelt had a terrible economy, huge spending, tyrannical policies. He was only saved by the war time economy, which then permitted the deathly ill egotist to botch the conclusion of the European Theater of World War 2.
 
Remember FDR took over the government in time of a depression, not merely a very small recession. And if WWII helped the economy of FDR, should we assume the same for GWBush? The war in Iraq should be a boast to the economy, wars usually are.

And let's not get into the Presidents' egos here - they all have them, they have all made big mistakes because of them... It isn't what this discussion is about.
 
The point is, economic activity didn't even reach 1929 levels until about FOUR YEARS after FDR took office, and nearly seven years after the crash.
Well, it took FOUR YEARS for the economy to bottom out after 1929 (all prior to FDR taking office), so taking FOUR YEARS for it to recover doesn't sound so unreasonable. Let's not forget that the 1920s boom was the result of a "bubble" very similar to today's. So it was already above the historical trend up to that point.

Here are some numbers I put together:

Code:
All numbers in billions

GDP(1) = "real" dollars
GDP(2) = constant 2000 dollars

           GOVT                                PRIVATE   UNEMPLOYMENT
YEAR   SPENDING    GDP(1)   GDP(2)    CHG   INVESTMENT           RATE
1929        9.4    103.6    865.2                 16.5           3.3%
1930       10.0     91.2    790.7    -8.6         10.8           8.9%
1931        9.9     76.5    739.9    -6.4          5.9          15.9%
1932        8.7     58.7    643.7   -13.0          1.3          23.6%
1933        8.7     56.4    635.5    -1.3          1.7          24.9%
1934       10.5     66.0    704.2    10.8          3.7          21.7%
1935       10.9     73.3    766.9     8.9          6.7          20.1%
1936       13.1     83.8    866.6    13.0          8.6          17.0%
1937       12.8     91.9    911.1     5.1         12.2          14.3%
1938       13.8     86.1    879.7    -3.4          7.1          19.0%
1939       14.8     92.2    950.7     8.1          9.3          17.2%
1940       15.0    101.4   1034.1     8.8         13.6          14.6%
1941       26.5    126.7   1211.1    17.1         18.1           9.9%
First 5 columns are taken from the US Bureau of Economic Analysis tables here and here.
Unemployment figures from US Bureau of Labor Statistics

If there are any typos, I apologize. Putting this table together and getting everything to line up properly took me almost an hour.

Something to note about the unemployment figures is that they cannot be compared to today's numbers because the way they're calculated has changed drastically. It's been argued that if we were to calculate unemployment the way they did for the 30's, we'd be closer to 16%.

In any case, your claim that there was "THERE WAS NO ECONOMIC GROWTH BETWEEN 1929 and 1936" implies that there was no change at all between those years---that it was essentially flat. Which is clearly untrue. So you're either guilty of dishonesty or willful ignorance. Which is it?
 
Remember FDR took over the government in time of a depression, not merely a very small recession. And if WWII helped the economy of FDR, should we assume the same for GWBush? The war in Iraq should be a boast to the economy, wars usually are.
No, we can't assume that, the situation is entirely different.
The scope of operations is very small, the military is still volunteer, there is no mandatory draft, and military spending really gone up all that much.

To argue that World War II and the Invasion of Iraq are even similar in scale is absurd.

And let's not get into the Presidents' egos here - they all have them, they have all made big mistakes because of them... It isn't what this discussion is about.
If you don't want to talk about Presidential egos, then don't focus on a single word in my post, unless of course you're AGAIN avoiding and distracting from the substance of the argument.

Now, feel free to make your point any day now.
 
I'll have to respond to you out of order.
Let's start with this:
In any case, your claim that there was "THERE WAS NO ECONOMIC GROWTH BETWEEN 1929 and 1936" implies that there was no change at all between those years---that it was essentially flat. Which is clearly untrue. So you're either guilty of dishonesty or willful ignorance. Which is it?
Neither. I implied nothing about the years in between, you simply presumed something that was both unstated and untrue.

But even on your chart, it's obvious the GDP in 1929 was 103.6B and in 1936 it was only 92.9B. This was despite the billions of federal dollars spent and the implementation of the New Deal. So, even on your little chart, you've confirmed what I said. At the end of FDR's first term, after the New Deal, after a 50% increase in federal spending, the economy hadn't recovered. It wasn't until AFTER the start of World War 2 did we see that happen. We had full employment because of the draft and huge military recruiting, enough so that even women joined the work force. Prior to that, military spending kicked in so that we could arm our allies before committing to the fight ourselves.

All of this confirms the simple point, FDRs huge federal spending and expansion of government DID NOT stimulate the economy and end the depression. The reality is, it perpetuated it. According to the CATO Institute, between 1929 and 1936, economic growth averaged .3%. Economies are cyclical. Because of the huge federal intervention, they prolonged the depression and prevented the natural correction from occuring. This made the depression more severe and last longer. Hoover's bad trade policy and tax increases and Roosevelt's increased taxes and government spending of the New Deal hurt the country. Regardless how you spin it, that's not an economic stimulus that we should be hoping to replicate now.

To make things even more worrisome, the current "stimulus" or "Newer Deal" doesn't even include all the construction and building. It's just short term spending that won't even enhance the infrastructure for decades to come.
 
Cal...

The numbers...

56.4 was the GDP in 1933... 126.7 in 1941 - a gross increase of 125%

10021.5 was the GDP in 2001.... 14412.8 in 2008 (3rd quarter) - a gross increase of 43%

Now - let's remove government expenditures... the result GDP is:
47.7 in 1932 - 100.2 in 1941 - a net increase of 110%

8238.2 in 2001 - 11.466.7 in 2008 - a net increase of 39%

In 1933 government spending was 15% of GDP, in 1941 it was 21%

In 2001 government spending was 18% of GDP, in 2008 it is 20%

And Calabrio - the war started for the US - December 8, 1941 - so Roosevelt didn't have the war to bolster his figures during this time frame we are talking about...

And, you were talking about economic conditions when you were discussing Scandinavia, the whole Roosevelt's ego and the ending of the war in Europe has nothing to do with economy, just your need to interject yet another negative about FDR.

Marcus - what a wonderful source - and I love your chart - lots of time, wow... I don't have patience to make charts... sorry....
 
Cal,

If you just want to look at the 4 years you are talking about for FDR - '33 - '36 (once again, you do really need to remove the years he wasn't president)

Gross GDP
1933 - 56.4
1936 - 83.8
Increase 67%

After government expenses
1933 - 47.7
1936 - 70.7
Increase 67%

The percentage of government spending remained the same during those 4 years... 15%, oddly the same it was in 1932...

And, Roosevelt moved an economy that was in a death spiral...
 
Neither. I implied nothing about the years in between, you simply presumed something that was both unstated and untrue.
So if it's untrue that you implied the economy was "essentially flat" during those years, then how about telling us what it was doing?

But even on your chart, it's obvious the GDP in 1929 was 103.6B and in 1936 it was only 92.9B.
You've yet to explain why you (and Cato) use 1929 as a starting point, when FDR's tenure didn't start until 1933. The answer is this: You use it because using 1933 as a starting point would ruin your thesis. Let me put it another way: What did FDR have to with the economy between 1929 and 1932?

The Dow didn't reach its 1929 peak again until 1954. Should we blame Eisenhower?

This was despite the billions of federal dollars spent and the implementation of the New Deal. So, even on your little chart, you've confirmed what I said. At the end of FDR's first term, after the New Deal, after a 50% increase in federal spending, the economy hadn't recovered.
Again, the New Deal and the billions of dollars didn't start until FDR took office. To be sure, the economy hadn't recovered yet. But it was well on its way.

It wasn't until AFTER the start of World War 2 did we see that happen. We had full employment because of the draft and huge military recruiting, enough so that even women joined the work force. Prior to that, military spending kicked in so that we could arm our allies before committing to the fight ourselves.
Which equates to huge amounts of government spending. There's no getting around it.

All of this confirms the simple point, FDRs huge federal spending and expansion of government DID NOT stimulate the economy and end the depression. The reality is, it perpetuated it. According to the CATO Institute, between 1929 and 1936, economic growth averaged .3%.
Again with the 1929. The period of 1929 to 1932 is irrelevant to the argument because there was an economic collapse going on prior to FDR. You're always careful to say that Bush inherited Clinton's recession. FDR inherited Hoover's. What was the growth after FDR took office?



Economies are cyclical.
The Great Depression wasn't part of a normal business cycle. It was an aberration.

Because of the huge federal intervention, they prolonged the depression and prevented the natural correction from occuring. This made the depression more severe and last longer. Hoover's bad trade policy and tax increases and Roosevelt's increased taxes and government spending of the New Deal hurt the country. Regardless how you spin it, that's not an economic stimulus that we should be hoping to replicate now.
Finally something that can actually be debated. But whether the economy grew under FDR cannot be. It did. Whether you believe that his policies slowed down the recovery is absolutely open to debate. The only problem I have with these declarations is the absolute certitude of those who espouse them. It's a bit presumptuous to claim that ALL of FDR's policies as a whole were wrong. More likely that some helped and some hurt. You're just repeating talking points. You can't prove any of them to be true, nor can I prove them to be false.

Show me someone who claims to have all the answers to economy and I'll show you someone who knows nothing about the economy.

To make things even more worrisome, the current "stimulus" or "Newer Deal" doesn't even include all the construction and building. It's just short term spending that won't even enhance the infrastructure for decades to come.
Actually I agree. Infrastructure needs to be the priority. Any other "stimuli" is short-term.
 
Marcus - I have figured it out - with these abandoned threads we could plot to take over the world, and no one would find out...

You'll be The Brain - I will bravely take on the role of Pinky...

The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so Brain, but calling it a Poo Poo Platter, I mean, what were they thinking? ;)
 
Yes, because it's what we do every night....

The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, but if we give peas a chance won't the Lima beans feel left out?
 
...this is a statistic heavy topic that's a week old.
That's a little difficult to just jump right back into. I'll see what I can do.

So if it's untrue that you implied the economy was "essentially flat" during those years, then how about telling us what it was doing?
Are you trying to make a point here or is the goal just to burden me with either recalling or looking economic data up? I'm not sure I understand the question. But, if I remember the line graphs correctly, the economy of the period dropped until about 1934 and then started climbing until eventually, in 1936 we made up all the economic ground catching the GDP back up to fiscal 1929, which was the year of the stock market crash. So there'd been no growth in the figure for nearly 5 years.

You implied that I said there was no "change in the numbers" between these year and accused me of lying. That's not what I said at all and I corrected you.

You've yet to explain why you (and Cato) use 1929 as a starting point, when FDR's tenure didn't start until 1933. The answer is this: You use it because using 1933 as a starting point would ruin your thesis. Let me put it another way: What did FDR have to with the economy between 1929 and 1932?
1929 is used because it is the year of the stock market crash. In many people's minds, it represents the beginning of the great depression. In better informed people's minds, it represents the beginning of a series of government policies that made the problem much worse.

The supposed goal of FDRs policies were to stimulate the economy are pull the country out of that depression. To stimulate the economy so that it would be a vibrant as it was BEFORE the stock market crash.

If the aggressive policies of FDR, which you distinguished from the policies of Hoover, were to have been successful, despite their outrageous costs, don't you think we wouldn't have reached reach the 1929 standards far earlier?

After three years of New Deal, after six or seven years of "Depression", don't you think we should have experience the economic recover by then? After the billions of dollars and huge expansion of government programs and interference in the markets under FDR, I ask you, when did we finally emerge from the Great Depression?


The Dow didn't reach its 1929 peak again until 1954. Should we blame Eisenhower?
....using your logic, shouldn't you be giving credit to Eisenhower, and blaming FDR and Truman? Eisenhower won took office in 1953. If the economy had recovered in 1934, I'd be inclined to give FDR credit. It didn't. It took more than six years and a world war.

Again, the New Deal and the billions of dollars didn't start until FDR took office. To be sure, the economy hadn't recovered yet. But it was well on its way. Which equates to huge amounts of government spending. There's no getting around it.
You just said the economy was "well on its way." This could mean one of two things:

1- the economy was well on its way to recovering BEFORE the massive expansion of government and investment of billions of dollars were wasted.

2-You honestly believe that because of the huge investment made by FDR, it resulted in the economy being "well on its way" to recovery.

Since option one is contrary to the broader point you seem to be trying to make, I'm left to presume you mean #2.

That being the case, how long does "well on its way take."
Noting that FDR took office in 1933 and the Great Depression is usually considered not to have ended until late 1939 or even later, how long does it take for a stimulus work? Was that a seven year delayed shot in the arm?

The fact is, the New Deal FAILED to stimulate the economy. It failed to end the great depression. And it wasn't until the HUGE military build up and military enlistments of WW2 that the U.S. finally emerged from it.

The FACT is, the Great Depression was only "great" because the Government screwed it up.


Again with the 1929. The period of 1929 to 1932 is irrelevant to the argument because there was an economic collapse going on prior to FDR. You're always careful to say that Bush inherited Clinton's recession. FDR inherited Hoover's. What was the growth after FDR took office?
What is it with you people who challenge something I said, but then expect me to do the legwork? I hate looking up obscure data. It's particularly difficult when it comes to finding stuff that smears the beloved liberal St. Roosevelt.

FDR did "inherit" the depression. Hoover and the Congress are largely responsible for it even being a depression, because they responded to a particular severe, but cyclical, negative economic period with protectionist trade policies, government intervention and high taxes. But FDR made a depression a GREAT Depression because of his economic and social policies.

Had he lowered taxes, reduced the size of government, lifted trade barriers, and lifted the wage/price/business restrictions he'd put in place, the "Great Depression" would have been over very quickly. Had he just left things alone, it's believed that the markets would have corrected themselves within two years at the most. Not seven.

You want to know the "growth" while FDR was in office. I'll tell you one thing that experienced high growth under FDR. Unemployment.
In the 1920s it was about 5%. By the mid 1930s it was 13% but after six years of New Deal, it was about 19%. Why? The government under Hoover blocked wage cuts, and then FDR supported anti-free market, price freezing, wage locking, union empowering policies that hurt employment.

Your chart has different figures for the unemployment, but that's because of the various methods used for calculating unemployment. But, using the figures you provided, FIVE YEARS after the New Deal, we still had 19% unemployment! And it remained over 20% for the first three years.

Not to mention a FIVE PERCENT JUMP in unemployment from 1937 to 1938!! That's a recovery? 5 years of New Deal policy and you have 5% swings in double digit unemployment. And liberals have the shear nerve to call this a success?


The Great Depression wasn't part of a normal business cycle. It was an aberration.
The only thing that made the great depression an aberration was the way it was mishandled by Washington, D.C. First by Hoover and the congress, and then by FDR.

Finally something that can actually be debated. But whether the economy grew under FDR cannot be. It did. Whether you believe that his policies slowed down the recovery is absolutely open to debate. The only problem I have with these declarations is the absolute certitude of those who espouse them.
I'm basing my observation, analysis, and opinion on economic fact, yet you don't like my certitude? Do you reserve that same level of contempt for the sixty years worth of FDR devotees who have blindly repeated the mantra that FDR saved the country during the Great Depression? Because there isn't ANY compelling evidence to prove that point.

The New Deal FAILED to end the Great Depression.

It's a bit presumptuous to claim that ALL of FDR's policies as a whole were wrong. More likely that some helped and some hurt. You're just repeating talking points. You can't prove any of them to be true, nor can I prove them to be false.
I don't repeat "talking points." If I did, I wouldn't be able to respond to some of the absolutely absurd and thoughtless "challenges" presented in this forum.

And I can say, confidently, that FDRs domestic policies as "AS A WHOLE" were wrong. There were individual ones that weren't, but the "as a whole" charge is extremely easy to make and fairly simple to demonstrate.

Actually I agree. Infrastructure needs to be the priority. Any other "stimuli" is short-term.
infrastructure isn't much of a stimuli, it's a long term investment and the market loves stability.
 
Can't ignore the effect the draft and rationing had on the economy. Reduced unemployment and more disposable income. That is what a war time economy is and THAT (at least in large part) is what turned the depression around. The New Deal did not help turn the economy around, in fact having the opposite effect.

newdealunemploy.jpg
 
Cal, so the three years immediately following the crash (29-32) were Hoover's years - correct? In those three years the economy went to its lowest point, 1932-1933. As soon as FDR got in it started to go back up - immediately - that first full year he had in office. In 1933 the economy remained flat, however, in 1934 (FDRs first full year in office) the economy improved by 10%, followed by years of 9%, 13% and 5% growth by 1937. In '38 there was another recession, but once again, he got things back on track for '39 forward. I think everyone would be very pleased if we could do that in the next 4 years. And FDR did it with government spending staying at 15-16% of GDP, the same as Hoover's last year in office. Pretty darn good wouldn't you say? You keep mentioning over and over again his huge expansion of government - he didn't really 'expand' government in relationship to GDP until after 1940, when he started to build up the military. In fact, in 1940 the percentage of government spending to GDP was 15%, or over 1/2 LESS than it was last year, 2008 (33%)

Obviously the New Deal had problems with the unemployment numbers (notice I have always said FDR had problems). But, actually his unemployment rate decrease was very similar to many other 'successes' that the conservative right points out...
The second point I would address is that a lot of data is presented in isolation. For example, take the unemployment rate. If you say the unemployment rate in 1938 was 17.2% it obviously going to sound terrible. But that is not the issue. Rather, the issue is what does the drop in the unemployment rate from the 25.2% peak in 1933 imply about the success or failure of policy. The issue should be how does the drop in the unemployment rate under FDR and the New Deal compare to normal. In other words, what standard should you use to evaluate whether economic growth between 1933 and WW II was weak, strong or average.

I would suggest that the correct time frame to use is from 1933 to 1940. This is FDR's first two terms and in 1940 the build-up for WW-II was just starting and did not yet have a significant impact. It is not a trough to trough comparison. Rather it is a trough to mid-cycle comparison. From 1933 to 1940 the unemployment rate fell from 25.2%to 14.6%, a 42.1% decline. So is this good or bad? The peak post WW II unemployment rate was in 1982 when it peaked at 10.8% and averaged 9.7% for the year. Over the next seven years the unemployment rate fell to 5.3% in 1989. This is a 45.8% drop as compared to the 42.1% drop under FDR. Under Kennedy-LBJ the unemployment rate fell from 6.7 to 3.6%, a 46.8% drop. Under Clinton it fell from 7.5% to 4.2%, a 43.75%. Considering that FDR experienced the 1937-38 recession while the other three periods were not interrupted by a recession, the difference between a 42.1% fall and the other 45.8%, 46.8% and 43.75% declines does not seem to be a significant difference. This set of data implies that economic growth under FDR was about normal, neither especially strong or weak.

Also, check out the chart that Shag posted. Once again, very subtly someone (the Heritage Foundation) is massaging numbers. They are using a very closed system, only 'non farm workers'. Why would you leave out farm workers? There were a lot of them in that time period. Farming was an important industry in the first half of the 20th century. Why remove a growth segment? It would be like taking out 'tech' workers from Clinton's numbers, or military contract workers out of Reagan's numbers. Not really fair at all. Marcus' chart shows the overall numbers, without removing entire industries.

You can argue all day that FDR's New Deal was terrible, and awful, but, it is just all hyperbole, speculation, and number jumbling. About the only real thing you can say is that the economy was at its worst when he took office, and by 1940 (when the war economy kicked in) it was in quite a bit better shape. He had more than doubled the GDP while cutting unemployment by over 40%. All while keeping government spending flat as a percentage of GDP.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top