What is a Moderate Muslim?

Calabrio

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How do you define a moderate Muslim?
What is moderate Islam?

Does that simply refer to anyone who doesn't strap a bomb to their chest, or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?
 
I can't asnwer that question, but I do have a solution, Drop a bomb when they make their migrant to Mecca and let it be know that rligion is a business and a tool to install fear into people
 
I can't asnwer that question, but I do have a solution, Drop a bomb when they make their migrant to Mecca and let it be know that rligion is a business and a tool to install fear into people

With the exception of you noting your inability to answer the question, everything else you said was profoundly ignorant.
 
How do you define a moderate Muslim?
What is moderate Islam?

Does that simply refer to anyone who doesn't strap a bomb to their chest, or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?

The most unfortunate thing is that the moderates of any group of people are the ones who attract the least amount of attention and are therefore the hardest to identify. Extremists generally are what people think of when they identify a group of people or generate stereotypes, eg; Pelosi and liberals, Buchanan and conservatives, and so on.

Worthless to discuss this with you though. Since you insist it is a proven fact that Islam teaches violence and world domination, and no amount of facts or reasoning will ever change your mind.
 
Worthless to discuss this with you though. Since you insist it is a proven fact that Islam teaches violence and world domination, and no amount of facts or reasoning will ever change your mind.

ignoring the irony of you branding Cal a conservative extremist for supposedly branding all Muslims extremists, you never offer any facts and logically coherent reasoning to back up your assertions; just excuses to dodge the need to justify those assertions. How could you possibly know weather or not Cal is immune to facts and reasoning? :rolleyes:
 
Perhaps you should refrain from the indignation and just answer the discussion question I presented, Find. It's not a loaded question though it is topical.

I'll ask it again.

Are you a "moderate Muslim" simply because you don't strap a bomb to your chest or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?

And if you would like to explain how Islam is a religion of peace, go on and do that as well. Perhaps you could provide some examples of a peaceful, tolerant, and free countries with a Muslim majority population.
 
We are not in a peaceful or tolerant country either.....

ignoring the irony of you branding Cal a conservative extremist for supposedly branding all Muslims extremists, you never offer any facts and logically coherent reasoning to back up your assertions; just excuses to dodge the need to justify those assertions. How could you possibly know weather or not Cal is immune to facts and reasoning? :rolleyes:

When did I brand cal a conservative extremist? Are you saying that if a person is not interested in facts or reasoning, they must be conservative?
 
When did I brand cal a conservative extremist? Are you saying that if a person is not interested in facts or reasoning, they must be conservative?

Now you are reduced to stubbornly ignoring the logical implications of what you say and twisting someones words?

You really have no shame or integrity do you.

Where is your little "Liberal troll" self-pitying/demagogic disclaimer? You should make it your signature.
 
We are not in a peaceful or tolerant country either.....

No one is forcing you to respond in this thread.
I presented a very simple, direct discussion question at this start of the thread. Why do you feel compelled to post yet not directly respond to the question I posed?

I'll ask it of you again,
Are you a "moderate Muslim" simply because you don't strap a bomb to your chest or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?

And if you would like to explain how Islam is a religion of peace, go on and do that as well. Perhaps you could provide some examples of a peaceful, tolerant, and free countries with a Muslim majority population.
 
I believe I already responded to you earlier. I stated that moderates of any group are difficult to define, especially in the presence of extremists. I then said it was worthless to discuss it with you because you are a close-minded bigot. Sorry, just not interested in answering your loaded questions, especially since this is all you ever do in this debate, you have never answered any of the questions or challenges I have proposed, preferring instead just to call me a stupid-head. Why don't you give me some examples of peaceful non-violent countries with a christian majority before you start trying to set up your straw men?

Now you are reduced to stubbornly ignoring the logical implications of what you say and twisting someones words?

You really have no shame or integrity do you.

Where is your little "Liberal troll" self-pitying/demagogic disclaimer? You should make it your signature.

Where am I twisting his words? He has stated time and again that Islam teaches violence and conquest, every time I have even started to have this discussion, he asks for negative proof or asks me to perform the entire argument for him. I have asked him repeatedly to tell me what teachings of islam, or what scriptures in the koran he disagrees with, instead of answering that, he goes into a long rant about why he is smarter than me and asks me to prove that Islam doesn't teach violence and world domination. As far as the liberal troll disclaimer.... didn't feel like digging it up. Do I really need to remind people to join in your ad hominem? You not confident you can do it on your own? Also, it won't fit in my sig. duh.

So tell me. How am I twisting his words?
 
I never said you were twisting his words.


That was a question, not a statement. You said I was calling Cal an extremist conservative. I wanted to know your reasoning for saying I was calling him an extremist conservative since the only statement I made in my comment to him that he was not interested in facts or reasoning. Once again, I ask, how am I twisting anyone's words?

So, were you just arguing with me and accusing me of things to distract from the fact that you don't have anything intelligent to say, and you don't have any conservative blogs to quote to prove you are "superior"?
 
That was a question, not a statement. You said I was calling Cal an extremist conservative. I wanted to know your reasoning for saying I was calling him an extremist conservative since the only statement I made in my comment to him that he was not interested in facts or reasoning. Once again, I ask, how am I twisting anyone's words?

So, were you just arguing with me and accusing me of things to distract from the fact that you don't have anything intelligent to say, and you don't have any conservative blogs to quote to prove you are "superior"?
You are the poster child for arguing for argument's sake.
 
You are the poster child for arguing for argument's sake.

mmmhmmm. So when the lies and accusations don't work, resort to baseless insults. Check.

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

Use an alinsky tactic while waiting to accuse your opponent of it. Check.
 
So, anyway, back on topic, anybody with any real credibility want to oppose the premise that there are no moderate muslims, using actual examples and/or logical arguments with literary development?
 
I believe I already responded to you earlier. I stated that moderates of any group are difficult to define, especially in the presence of extremists.

That may well be true, but I'm not asking you to identify the moderate standing in a room of extremists. I outlined a handful of very specific opinions and asked if that it were possible to be considered a "moderate" Muslim while still holding to that view.

Sorry, just not interested in answering your loaded questions, especially since this is all you ever do in this debate, you have never answered any of the questions or challenges I have proposed, preferring instead just to call me a stupid-head.
Perhaps you're called a stupid-head so frequently that you've confused me with someone else, but to the best of my memory I have infact made an honest effort to honestly address all of your thoughtful challenges regardless your refusal to do so.

Why don't you give me some examples of peaceful non-violent countries with a christian majority before you start trying to set up your straw men?
Why are you attempting to change the subject?
But, in an effort to make your challenge relevant to this thread, I will say that:

You are not a "moderate Christian," or respectable mainstream Christian, if you strap a bomb to your chest or actively support others who engage in homocide bombings, particularly targeting civilians eating at a Sbaros.

You can not be a "moderate Christian", or respectable mainstream Christian, if you support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah or any other death cult.

And you can not be a "moderate Christian," or respectable mainstream Christian, if you support Sharia law or hope to have it imposed on your country through democratic means.

Now it's your turn.
Are you a "moderate Muslim" simply because you don't strap a bomb to your chest or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?

And if you would like to explain how Islam is a religion of peace, go on and do that as well. Perhaps you could provide some examples of a peaceful, tolerant, and free countries with a Muslim majority population. And since this question might be insufficiently vague, I'll expand on it. A country with a majority Muslim population that IS NOT involved in border conflict with a non-Muslim state OR not in the process of imposing Sharia law on the population. You might think of one, so far, I haven't been able to.
 
Why are you attempting to change the subject?
But, in an effort to make your challenge relevant to this thread, I will say that:

You are not a "moderate Christian," or respectable mainstream Christian, if you strap a bomb to your chest or actively support others who engage in homocide bombings, particularly targeting civilians eating at a Sbaros.

You can not be a "moderate Christian", or respectable mainstream Christian, if you support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah or any other death cult.

And you can not be a "moderate Christian," or respectable mainstream Christian, if you support Sharia law or hope to have it imposed on your country through democratic means.

Now it's your turn.
Are you a "moderate Muslim" simply because you don't strap a bomb to your chest or actively support someone doing that?

Can you be a moderate Muslim and support a group like Hamas or Hezbollah?

Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democrat means and not violent ones?

And if you would like to explain how Islam is a religion of peace, go on and do that as well. Perhaps you could provide some examples of a peaceful, tolerant, and free countries with a Muslim majority population. And since this question might be insufficiently vague, I'll expand on it. A country with a majority Muslim population that IS NOT involved in border conflict with a non-Muslim state OR not in the process of imposing Sharia law on the population. You might think of one, so far, I haven't been able to.

You were the one looking for a muslim country that is peaceful and non-violent. Why is there a problem with identifying a christian country that is the same?

Very well, to answer your questions.

A moderate muslim would not support suicide bombing or commit suicide bombing, however, given the right circumstances, anyone can be brainwashed or would just turn a blind eye to such events. It happens every day all over the world, regardless of religious beliefs. People ignore crimes because they are afraid.

Supporting al-qaeda. Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other type of group..... well those two are dependent on circumstance. Generally a moderate muslim would not support such groups. Certainly not in a country were those types of groups do not hold power. In the countries where they do hold power, there are many factors to consider, fear, perception, propoganda. The moderate german probably didn't feel all Jews should be put in ovens, and would not have synthesized or supported the belief that they should be put into concentration camps without heavy influence of propaganda and pressure. However, the average moderate german did support the Nazi party while they held a majority influence in Germany. You also have to consider, that for some of these people, these groups are providing for them or helping them out. Since I know you are familiar with early 20th century politics, think of it as the same thing as the machine. The situations and tactics are often very similar. Then you still have to consider the fact that extremists use this religion, that is so thoroughly incorporated into their daily life, and twist it to make these people believe whatever they want. The extremist groups, holding as much power as they do, are able to elevate similar radically minded people to positions of power within their religious structure, which gives them even greater credibility and aids them further in the bastardization of the true messages.

The shariah law question poses some difficulty too, as there is a wide range of opinions on what exactly shariah law entails, and the law varies widely between sects. However, shariah law, as flawed as it may be in many cases, are viewed as gods law to the people of the islamic faith, and can no more be changed or ignored than the 10 commandments. However, the moderate muslim will not be trying to forcefully impose shariah.

A peaceful (relatively speaking) country with a Muslim majority since you clarified what you are looking for slightly.... I cannot name one..... How bout three for a start? Because I don't want anyone to start complaining that I am naming off some isolated instance where blah blah blah yadda yadda. Turkey 99% Muslim, Kazakhstan 65% Muslim, and Mali 90% Muslim, who despite pressure (primarily through legitimate democratic or political process), remain "secular states" where shariah is really only a factor in peoples personal lives, there is religious tolerance, and freedom of religion. They aren't really involved in border conflicts, unless you count things like UN actions, some minor things, and local peace-keeping.

Do those fit your criteria? They are certainly more peaceful countries than we are living in, where there is arguably as much or more religious freedom and tolerance. There is arguably a greater influence in this country to force christian beliefs into the legal system of this country, not through legitimate political means, than there is in any of those three. I mean, all three countries are :q:q:q:qholes, but, meh, they can't all be the USA.

I admit, I wikied the percentages, I couldn't remember them off the top of my head.
 
From Pam Geller's website:

The media frenzy to destroy good, decent Americans who oppose a 15-story mega-mosque on Ground Zero is rabid. Even for them. Despite red flags everywhere and the nationwide grief caused by this grotesque act of Islamic supremacism, why isn't the media doing its job, investigative journalism?

Instead, the morally ill media is in full-on operational smear machine mode in the raging war of ideas, the information battle space, the objective of which is to erect the Ground Zero mega mosque. Tolerance is a crime when applied to evil (Thomas Mann). Whilst the NY Times front page spins interfaith yarns into PR gold faster than Rumpelstiltskin and accords godlike status to Imam Feisal Rauf, new audio surfaces. Here are a couple of soundbites of tolerance:
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf: "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non Muslims. You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was Secretary of State and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.
No mention of the 270 million victims of over a millennium of jihadi wars, land appropriations, cultural annihilation and enslavement. No mention of the recent slaughter by Muslims of Christians, Hindus, Jews, non-believers in Indonesia, Thailand, Ethiopia, Somalia, Philippines, Lebanon, Israel, Russia, China................ no candor, no criticism of Islam.
Imam Feisal: "The West needs to begin to see themselves through the eyes of the Arab and Muslim world, and when you do you will see the predicament that exists within the Muslim community."
On the question of reforming Islam and expunging the texts of the threat doctrine and mandated violence and conquest:
Imam Feisal: On the issue of the reformation, in terms of what is again intended by it, Islam does not need a reformation.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf: "So men will say: women, you know, they're emotional, ..... whatever, whatever, and women will say: men, they're brutes, insensitive, etcetera, and you have the beginning of a gender conflict. If gender is not what distinguishes us we'll look at skin colouring and say: n#####s or whities, or whatever"
Reverend Al Sharpton was unavailable for comment. Too busy endorsing the Islamic supremacist mosque. Rest assured, the tolerant Imam Rauf will not suffer as Dr. Laura did (and she was making a "word" point, Rauf is using it.)
Imam Feisal: And when we observe terrorism, whether it was done by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka or by al Qaida or whoever is behind the bombings in London or those in Madrid
Note, when he says about the London and Madrid bombings,that was five days after the London attacks and over a year after Madrid. It was common knowledge who the perps were at that time.
IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF: That's a very common question. In fact, just about two months ago I was interviewed by Barbara Walters, who is doing a special on heaven and she's interviewed suicide bombers who are expecting the embraces of 72 virgins in paradise, and she asked me do women get the same privilege as well, and I answered her telling her: well, the Koran says you shall have whatever your heart desires
And the Imam is conspiracy theorist - 911 was an inside job:
How many of you have seen the documentary: Fahrenheit 911? The vast majority - at least half here. Do you remember the scene of the Iraqi woman whose house was bombed and she was just screaming, "What have they done." Now, I don't know, you don't know Arabic but in Arabic it was extremely powerful. Her house was gone. Her husband, I think, was killed. What wrong did he do? I found myself weeping when I watched that scene and I imagined myself if I were a 15-year old nephew of this deceased man, what would I have felt?
Collateral damage is a nice thing to put on a paper but when the collateral damage is your own uncle or cousin, what passions do these arouse? How do you negotiate? How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?
And while Imam Faisal speaks of tolerance and so forth, he commiserates with worst extremists and inciters to genocide:

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF: The broader community is in fact criticising and condemning actions of terrorism that are being done in the name of Islam. I just came from a conference in Jordan, Amman where there were over 170 leading Muslim scholars from almost every part of the Muslim world, including some of the most important names like Sheikh Tantawi of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, who is the Chief Mufti of Egypt, the Chief Mufti of Jordan, the Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, who is a very very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world.

 
FIND, you really should do some more research on Islam.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess after 9/11 you were probably at the end of your teens, very early twenties and you thought it would be enlightened to read the Koran. It made you feel smart and engaged at the time and maybe it'd even impress a few people to tell them that you've read it.

You picked up a paperback copy of it, it's not very long, and you read through it.
It didn't make any sense to you, the English translations are awful. Periodically, individual sentences stood out, without any context, and they seemed reasonable to you. Upon finishing it, you considered yourself a scholar and saw no reason to dig deeper. You're confidence was reinforced by the portrayal of Islam by the mainstream media and the propagandists from terrorist front groups like CAIR and MSA on TV.
Look into some other authors, some who take an honest look at Islam.

To address your responses,
let me know if I got this right.

A moderate muslim does not support suicide bombers.
A moderate muslim does not support organizations such as Hamas or Hezbollah, especially if they live in a Western country, free from the threat of death from those groups.

But you didn't answer this:
Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democratic means and not violent ones?

Do you really know what Sharia law is?
Just so you know, it's not compatible with the U.S. Constitution.
 
FIND, you really should do some more research on Islam.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess after 9/11 you were probably at the end of your teens, very early twenties and you thought it would be enlightened to read the Koran. It made you feel smart and engaged at the time and maybe it'd even impress a few people to tell them that you've read it.

You picked up a paperback copy of it, it's not very long, and you read through it.
It didn't make any sense to you, the English translations are awful. Periodically, individual sentences stood out, without any context, and they seemed reasonable to you. Upon finishing it, you considered yourself a scholar and saw no reason to dig deeper. You're confidence was reinforced by the portrayal of Islam by the mainstream media and the propagandists from terrorist front groups like CAIR and MSA on TV.
Look into some other authors, some who take an honest look at Islam.

No, you are wrong. Like I told you before, my copy, I got as a wedding gift from my first marriage.... I have not only read it, but I have done quite a bit of looking into it deeper. I used to be quite interested in religion, and have tried to learn as much as I can about many of them. I don't know why you persist in making this characterization of me simply because I don't agree with you. What honest research have you done on Islam? What have you read about islam that is not just some propaganda presented by those with anti-islamic sentiment?

To address your responses,
let me know if I got this right.

A moderate muslim does not support suicide bombers.
A moderate muslim does not support organizations such as Hamas or Hezbollah, especially if they live in a Western country, free from the threat of death from those groups.

But you didn't answer this:
Can you be a "moderate Muslim" while still supporting Sharia law and hoping to have it imposed upon your host country through democratic means and not violent ones?

I did answer that. Re-read what I said about it.

However, the moderate muslim will not be trying to forcefully impose shariah.

Look into countries like Turkey, Kazakhstan or Mali if you want better examples of Moderate Muslims where they are :GASP: only observing shariah law privately, and any attempt to make any part of shariah codified law is done through democratic means with respect to the laws and standards of their governments.

Do you really know what Sharia law is?
Just so you know, it's not compatible with the U.S. Constitution.

Yes I do know what Sharia law is, I know many variations of Sharia law. The question is do you know any of it, or do you just know what you have heard about it? Why don't you go ahead an enlighten me about how it is not compatible with the US constitution?
 
I don't know why you persist in making this characterization of me simply because I don't agree with you.
Because your observations and opinions of the religion echo a very naive perspective of it, the one that is usually presented to the Western media.

For example, the way you characterize Sharia law.

It's noble that you attempted to read the Koran, but simply doing so is not a complete understanding of Islam. In fact, doing so probably is more confusing. Again, as I've asked in the past, what order did you read it? How did you deal with the issues of chronology? Which translation was it? And most importantly, did you read any of the supporting writings like the Sunnah and the Hadith, the Tafsir?

What honest research have you done on Islam? What have you read about islam that is not just some propaganda presented by those with anti-islamic sentiment?
I really don't like to delve into my personal history on the internet publicly.

Again, while I don't consider myself an expert on Islam, I have studied it quite a bit. I started out with the same "open minded" opinion as you, sort of based upon the same idea that it must ultimately be peaceful and have the ability to coexist. But my deeper study of the religion started when I was formally studying the history and politics of regions where Islam still dominates, the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia. Under the instruction of both Israeli and Muslim professors.

You'll learn more about Islam by simply studying Nigeria than you will by consuming any of the P.C, apologist or propagandist material that we're usually provided in this country.

I would also frequently attend or view lectures and speeches by authors, historians, and theologians with conflicting views on these issues. When I learn of or find a debate by individuals I respect, though don't necessarily agree with, I will participate.

Ultimately, even if you think Muslims are capable of a "reformation" that would make it compatible or able to co-exist with the West, then you have recognize the principles that need to be reformed. Reformation isn't possible if you deny the violence and subjugation that defines Islam as it was originally written.

You can't understand Islam unless you understand the Muslim Brotherhood.
You can't understand Islam unless you understand what Sharia law is.
You don't understand Islam unless you realize that it dictates all aspects of your life. From law, to politics, to relationships, and even business and finance. It is not compatible with our constitution or any Western government.

I did answer that. Re-read what I said about it.
You responded to it, but you didn't answer it, that's why I added the emphasis. Imposition of Sharia through political, "democratic and non-violent means."

Look into countries like Turkey, Kazakhstan or Mali
I suggest that you actually research those countries.
Turkey is sliding back into Sharia at a very alarming rate. Which is very upsetting since it has long been the "hope" of the West that demonstrated the Muslim communities ability to live with a secular government.

The violence from Muslims directed at the Orthodox Christians in that country is also becoming very intense.

And if you look in Mali and Kazakhstan, Sharia law is creeping in through the foreign Muslims. And with is, so is the violence directed at pagans and the people of the book.

only observing shariah law privately, and any attempt to make any part of shariah codified law is done through democratic means with respect to the laws and standards of their governments.
And this is the naivety I spoke of before.
You're making the fundamental mistake of viewing Islam with a Western perspective. Sharia is NOT the same as the ten commandments.

Yes I do know what Sharia law is, I know many variations of Sharia law. The question is do you know any of it, or do you just know what you have heard about it? Why don't you go ahead an enlighten me about how it is not compatible with the US constitution?
I've outlined some of this already.
Sharia is not a moral code. Islam is not just a religion, it's a complete theo-political system. Perhaps you can answer this for me, we'll start out easy, how would you work dhimmitude into the constitution? Islam preaches Islamic supremacism, not tolerance and equality.

Do not believe the creeping Sharia, the incrementalist lies that you've probably been exposed to. Incrementalism is usually a tactic used by people not powerful enough to force a conversion.

I want to address another point here, one you keep repeating.
Why do you automatically dismiss anything that is views or examines Islam critically?

I mentioned Robert Spencer in another thread and you reflexively launched an ad hominem attack on him. Have you read any of his work? If you don't want to invest the time, have you ever listened to him speak on the subject of Islam? He's an EXCELLENT resource and well worth your time to read. His work is well researched, sourced, and documented.

This is reinforced by the efforts of terrorist groups like CAIR to silence him and their ability to actually point out what he's said that is historically or theologically untrue.

I'll stand by my statement earlier, The Complete Infidels Guide to the Koran is an excellent primer book for Westerners to read. Your study doesn't end with that book. But I highly suggest everyone read it.

And, I want to add one more thing.
I don't remember where in the process it was, the Barbary Pirates.
Those events in American history also inspired me to learn more, and began teaching me a lot about the "Religion of Peace."

I presume you're familiar with the United States history with the Barbary pirates. If not, you'll certainly look it up.
 
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Andrew C. McCarthy

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August 24, 2010 4:00 A.M.
Inventing Moderate Islam
It can’t be done without confronting mainstream Islam and its sharia agenda.


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‘Secularism can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society.” The writer was not one of those sulfurous Islamophobes decried by CAIR and the professional Left. Quite the opposite: It was Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim Brotherhood’s spiritual guide and a favorite of the Saudi royal family. He made this assertion in his book, How the Imported Solutions Disastrously Affected Our Ummah, an excerpt of which was published by the Saudi Gazette just a couple of months ago.

This was Qaradawi the “progressive” Muslim intellectual, much loved by Georgetown University’s burgeoning Islamic-studies programs. Like Harvard, Georgetown has been purchased into submission by tens of millions of Saudi petrodollars. In its resulting ardor to put Americans at ease about Islam, the university somehow manages to look beyond Qaradawi’s fatwas calling for the killing of American troops in Iraq and for suicide bombings in Israel. Qaradawi, they tell us, is a “moderate.” In fact, as Robert Spencer quips, if you were to say Islam and secularism cannot co-exist, John Esposito, Georgetown’s apologist-in-chief, would call you an Islamophobe; but when Qaradawi says it, no problem — according to Esposito, he’s a “reformist.”

And he’s not just any reformist. Another Qaradawi fan, Feisal Rauf, the similarly “moderate” imam behind the Ground Zero mosque project, tells us Qaradawi is also “the most well-known legal authority in the whole Muslim world today.”

Rauf is undoubtedly right about that. So it is worth letting it sink in that this most influential of Islam’s voices, this promoter of the Islamic enclaves the Brotherhood is forging throughout the West, is convinced that Islamic societies can never accept secularism. After all, secularism is nothing less than the framework by which the West defends religious freedom but denies legal and political authority to religious creeds.


It is also worth understanding why Qaradawi says Islam and secularism cannot co-exist. The excerpt from his book continues:
As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.
Apostasy is an explosive accusation. On another occasion, Sheikh Qaradawi explained that “Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished.” He further acknowledged that the consensus view of these jurists, including the principal schools of both Sunni and Shiite jurisprudence, is “that apostates must be executed.”

Qaradawi’s own view is more nuanced, as he explained to the Egyptian press in 2005. This, I suppose, is where his vaunted reformist streak comes in. For private apostasy, in which a Muslim makes a secret, personal decision to renounce tenets of Islam and quietly goes his separate way without causing a stir, the sheikh believes ostracism by the Islamic community is a sufficient penalty, with the understanding that Allah will condemn the apostate to eternal damnation at the time of his choosing. For public apostasy, however, Qaradawi stands with the overwhelming weight of Islamic authority: “The punishment . . . is execution.”

The sad fact, the fact no one wants to deal with but which the Ground Zero mosque debate has forced to the fore, is that Qaradawi is a moderate. So is Feisal Rauf, who endorses the Qaradawi position — the mainstream Islamic position — that sharia is a nonnegotiable requirement. Rauf wins the coveted “moderate” designation because he strains, at least when speaking for Western consumption, to paper over the incompatibility between sharia societies and Western societies.




Qaradawi and Rauf are “moderates” because we’ve abandoned reason. Our opinion elites are happy to paper over the gulf between “reformist” Islam and the “reformist” approval of mass-murder attacks. That’s why it matters not a whit to them that Imam Rauf refuses to renounce Hamas: If you’re going to give a pass to Qaradawi, the guy who actively promotesHamas terrorists, how can you complain about a guy who merely refuses to condemn the terrorists?


When we are rational, we have confidence in our own frame of reference. We judge what is moderate based on a detached, commonsense understanding of what “moderate” means. We’re not rigging the outcome; we just want to know where we stand.

If we were in that objective frame of mind, we would easily see that a freedom culture requires separation of the spiritual from the secular. We would also see that sharia — with dictates that contradict liberty and equality while sanctioning cruel punishments and holy war — is not moderate. Consequently, no one who advocates sharia can be a moderate, no matter how well-meaning he may be, no matter how heartfelt may be his conviction that this is God’s will, and no matter how much higher on the food chain he may be than Osama bin Laden.

Instead, abandoning reason, we have deep-sixed our own frame of reference and substituted mainstream Islam’s. If that backward compass is to be our guide, then sure, Qaradawi and Rauf are moderates. But know this: When you capitulate to the authority and influence of Qaradawi and Rauf, you kill meaningful Islamic reform.

There is no moderate Islam in the mainstream of Muslim life, not in the doctrinal sense. There are millions of moderate Muslims who crave reform. Yet the fact that they seek real reform, rather than what Georgetown is content to call reform, means they are trying to invent something that does not currently exist.

Real reform can also be found in some Muslim sects. The Ahmadi, for example, hold some unorthodox views and reject violent jihad. Witness what happens: They are brutally persecuted by Muslims in Pakistan, as well as in Indonesia and other purported hubs of moderation.


Meanwhile, individual Muslim reformers are branded apostates, meaning not only that they are discredited, but that their lives are threatened as well. The signal to other Muslims is clear: Follow the reformers and experience the same fury. As Qaradawi put it in the 2005 interview, public apostates are “the gravest danger” to Islamic society; therefore, Muslims must snuff them out, lest their reforms “spread like wildfire in a field of thorns.”

Today, “moderate Islam” is an illusion. There is hardly a spark, much less a wildfire. Making moderation real will take more than wishing upon a star. It calls for a gut check, a willingness to face down not just al-Qaeda but the Qaradawis and their sharia campaign. It means saying: Not here.

— Andrew C. McCarthy, a senior fellow at the National Review Institute, is the author, most recently, of The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America
 
Wow Foss, more propaganda. Big surprise there. Lets count the facts in that blog you posted....... darn, didn't get past 0.

Because your observations and opinions of the religion echo a very naive perspective of it, the one that is usually presented to the Western media.

For example, the way you characterize Sharia law.

It's noble that you attempted to read the Koran, but simply doing so is not a complete understanding of Islam. In fact, doing so probably is more confusing. Again, as I've asked in the past, what order did you read it? How did you deal with the issues of chronology? Which translation was it? And most importantly, did you read any of the supporting writings like the Sunnah and the Hadith, the Tafsir?


I really don't like to delve into my personal history on the internet publicly.

Again, while I don't consider myself an expert on Islam, I have studied it quite a bit. I started out with the same "open minded" opinion as you, sort of based upon the same idea that it must ultimately be peaceful and have the ability to coexist. But my deeper study of the religion started when I was formally studying the history and politics of regions where Islam still dominates, the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia. Under the instruction of both Israeli and Muslim professors.

You'll learn more about Islam by simply studying Nigeria than you will by consuming any of the P.C, apologist or propagandist material that we're usually provided in this country.

I would also frequently attend or view lectures and speeches by authors, historians, and theologians with conflicting views on these issues. When I learn of or find a debate by individuals I respect, though don't necessarily agree with, I will participate.

Ultimately, even if you think Muslims are capable of a "reformation" that would make it compatible or able to co-exist with the West, then you have recognize the principles that need to be reformed. Reformation isn't possible if you deny the violence and subjugation that defines Islam as it was originally written.

You can't understand Islam unless you understand the Muslim Brotherhood.
You can't understand Islam unless you understand what Sharia law is.
You don't understand Islam unless you realize that it dictates all aspects of your life. From law, to politics, to relationships, and even business and finance. It is not compatible with our constitution or any Western government.


You responded to it, but you didn't answer it, that's why I added the emphasis. Imposition of Sharia through political, "democratic and non-violent means."


I suggest that you actually research those countries.
Turkey is sliding back into Sharia at a very alarming rate. Which is very upsetting since it has long been the "hope" of the West that demonstrated the Muslim communities ability to live with a secular government.

The violence from Muslims directed at the Orthodox Christians in that country is also becoming very intense.

And if you look in Mali and Kazakhstan, Sharia law is creeping in through the foreign Muslims. And with is, so is the violence directed at pagans and the people of the book.


And this is the naivety I spoke of before.
You're making the fundamental mistake of viewing Islam with a Western perspective. Sharia is NOT the same as the ten commandments.


I've outlined some of this already.
Sharia is not a moral code. Islam is not just a religion, it's a complete theo-political system. Perhaps you can answer this for me, we'll start out easy, how would you work dhimmitude into the constitution? Islam preaches Islamic supremacism, not tolerance and equality.

Do not believe the creeping Sharia, the incrementalist lies that you've probably been exposed to. Incrementalism is usually a tactic used by people not powerful enough to force a conversion.

I want to address another point here, one you keep repeating.
Why do you automatically dismiss anything that is views or examines Islam critically?

I mentioned Robert Spencer in another thread and you reflexively launched an ad hominem attack on him. Have you read any of his work? If you don't want to invest the time, have you ever listened to him speak on the subject of Islam? He's an EXCELLENT resource and well worth your time to read. His work is well researched, sourced, and documented.

This is reinforced by the efforts of terrorist groups like CAIR to silence him and their ability to actually point out what he's said that is historically or theologically untrue.

I'll stand by my statement earlier, The Complete Infidels Guide to the Koran is an excellent primer book for Westerners to read. Your study doesn't end with that book. But I highly suggest everyone read it.

And, I want to add one more thing.
I don't remember where in the process it was, the Barbary Pirates.
Those events in American history also inspired me to learn more, and began teaching me a lot about the "Religion of Peace."

I presume you're familiar with the United States history with the Barbary pirates. If not, you'll certainly look it up.

So you make a big long ad hominem argument and don't address any of the points I made, aside from the fact that extremists have been gaining ground in otherwise peaceful countries.

Now, I will repost this statement again, because all I can hope for is that if you keep reading it, you will generate an understanding of english.

However, the moderate muslim will not be trying to forcefully impose shariah.

So I'll ask you again since you seem to have missed it. What parts of sharia law are you talking about that are against our constitution? What specifically in the teachings of Islam (not theory or speculation based upon the actions of some countries) make it a religion of violence and oppression?

Also, you keep asserting you have "studied" Islam, but you all you have demonstrated is a knowledge of propaganda. This was pretty well illustrated in the other thread where you declared western music against Shariah.

Continue to call me naive..... But I'd love to see you produce anything other than ad hominem and bare assertion.
 
So I'll ask you again since you seem to have missed it. What parts of sharia law are you talking about that are against our constitution? What specifically in the teachings of Islam (not theory or speculation based upon the actions of some countries) make it a religion of violence and oppression?

First, we all know any answer given will simply be written off by you in some way, probably as "mere opinion" so why waste time answering a dishonest troll who has no interest in understanding or the truth.

Second, are you seriously writing off theory as worthless? Are you that dumb? And, no there really is no other way to characterize it then as "dumb".
 
First, we all know any answer given will simply be written off by you in some way, probably as "mere opinion" so why waste time answering a dishonest troll who has no interest in understanding or the truth.

Second, are you seriously writing off theory as worthless? Are you that dumb? And, no there really is no other way to characterize it then as "dumb".

I was asking for SPECIFIC TEACHINGS of islam, not someones theories or propaganda about what they believe is going on in the minds of others. Wow read before you troll my damn post. Are you retarded?
 

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