Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years

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With the dozens of right-wing opinion pieces posted here in a week, how about a change of pace...


Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years

by Thom Hartmann

This weekend, House Republican leader John Boehner played out the role of Jude Wanniski on NBC's "Meet The Press."

Odds are you've never heard of Jude, but without him Reagan never would have become a "successful" president, Republicans never would have taken control of the House or Senate, Bill Clinton never would have been impeached, and neither George Bush would have been president.

When Barry Goldwater went down to ignominious defeat in 1964, most Republicans felt doomed (among them the then-28-year-old Wanniski). Goldwater himself, although uncomfortable with the rising religious right within his own party and the calls for more intrusion in people's bedrooms, was a diehard fan of Herbert Hoover's economic worldview.

In Hoover's world (and virtually all the Republicans since reconstruction with the exception of Teddy Roosevelt), market fundamentalism was a virtual religion. Economists from Ludwig von Mises to Friedrich Hayek to Milton Friedman had preached that government could only make a mess of things economic, and the world of finance should be left to the Big Boys – the Masters of the Universe, as they sometimes called themselves – who ruled Wall Street and international finance.

Hoover enthusiastically followed the advice of his Treasury Secretary, multimillionaire Andrew Mellon, who said in 1931: "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate. Purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down... enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people."

Thus, the Republican mantra was: "Lower taxes, reduce the size of government, and balance the budget."

The only problem with this ideology from the Hooverite perspective was that the Democrats always seemed like the bestowers of gifts, while the Republicans were seen by the American people as the stingy Scrooges, bent on making the lives of working people harder all the while making richer the very richest. This, Republican strategists since 1930 knew, was no way to win elections.

Which was why the most successful Republican of the 20th century up to that time, Dwight D. Eisenhower, had been quite happy with a top income tax rate on millionaires of 91 percent. As he wrote to his brother Edgar Eisenhower in a personal letter on November 8, 1954:

"[T]o attain any success it is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything--even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon 'moderation' in government.

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt [you possibly know his background], a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

Goldwater, however, rejected the "liberalism" of Eisenhower, Rockefeller, and other "moderates" within his own party. Extremism in defense of liberty was no vice, he famously told the 1964 nominating convention, and moderation was no virtue. And it doomed him and his party.

And so after Goldwater's defeat, the Republicans were again lost in the wilderness just as after Hoover's disastrous presidency. Even four years later when Richard Nixon beat LBJ in 1968, Nixon wasn't willing to embrace the economic conservatism of Goldwater and the economic true believers in the Republican Party. And Jerry Ford wasn't, in their opinions, much better. If Nixon and Ford believed in economic conservatism, they were afraid to practice it for fear of dooming their party to another forty years in the electoral wilderness.

By 1974, Jude Wanniski had had enough. The Democrats got to play Santa Claus when they passed out Social Security and Unemployment checks – both programs of the New Deal – as well as when their "big government" projects like roads, bridges, and highways were built giving a healthy union paycheck to construction workers. They kept raising taxes on businesses and rich people to pay for things, which didn't seem to have much effect at all on working people (wages were steadily going up, in fact), and that made them seem like a party of Robin Hoods, taking from the rich to fund programs for the poor and the working class. Americans loved it. And every time Republicans railed against these programs, they lost elections.

Everybody understood at the time that economies are driven by demand. People with good jobs have money in their pockets, and want to use it to buy things. The job of the business community is to either determine or drive that demand to their particular goods, and when they're successful at meeting the demand then factories get built, more people become employed to make more products, and those newly-employed people have a paycheck that further increases demand.

Wanniski decided to turn the classical world of economics – which had operated on this simple demand-driven equation for seven thousand years – on its head. In 1974 he invented a new phrase – "supply side economics" – and suggested that the reason economies grew wasn't because people had money and wanted to buy things with it but, instead, because things were available for sale, thus tantalizing people to part with their money. The more things there were, the faster the economy would grow.

At the same time, Arthur Laffer was taking that equation a step further. Not only was supply-side a rational concept, Laffer suggested, but as taxes went down, revenue to the government would go up!

Neither concept made any sense – and time has proven both to be colossal idiocies – but together they offered the Republican Party a way out of the wilderness.

Ronald Reagan was the first national Republican politician to suggest that he could cut taxes on rich people and businesses, that those tax cuts would cause them to take their surplus money and build factories or import large quantities of cheap stuff from low-labor countries, and that the more stuff there was supplying the economy the faster it would grow. George Herbert Walker Bush – like most Republicans of the time – was horrified. Ronald Reagan was suggesting "Voodoo Economics," said Bush in the primary campaign, and Wanniski's supply-side and Laffer's tax-cut theories would throw the nation into such deep debt that we'd ultimately crash into another Republican Great Depression.

But Wanniski had been doing his homework on how to sell supply-side economics. In 1976, he rolled out to the hard-right insiders in the Republican Party his "Two Santa Clauses" theory, which would enable the Republicans to take power in America for the next thirty years.

Democrats, he said, had been able to be "Santa Clauses" by giving people things from the largesse of the federal government. Republicans could do that, too – spending could actually increase. Plus, Republicans could be double Santa Clauses by cutting people's taxes! For working people it would only be a small token – a few hundred dollars a year on average – but would be heavily marketed. And for the rich it would amount to hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts. The rich, in turn, would use that money to import or build more stuff to market, thus increasing supply and stimulating the economy. And that growth in the economy would mean that the people still paying taxes would pay more because they were earning more.

There was no way, Wanniski said, that the Democrats could ever win again. They'd have to be anti-Santas by raising taxes, or anti-Santas by cutting spending. Either one would lose them elections.

When Reagan rolled out Supply Side Economics in the early 80s, dramatically cutting taxes while exploding (mostly military) spending, there was a moment when it seemed to Wanniski and Laffer that all was lost. The budget deficit exploded and the country fell into a deep recession – the worst since the Great Depression – and Republicans nationwide held their collective breath. But David Stockman came up with a great new theory about what was going on – they were "starving the beast" of government by running up such huge deficits that Democrats would never, ever in the future be able to talk again about national health care or improving Social Security – and this so pleased Alan Greenspan, the Fed Chairman, that he opened the spigots of the Fed, dropping interest rates and buying government bonds, producing a nice, healthy goose to the economy. Greenspan further counseled Reagan to dramatically increase taxes on people earning under $37,800 a year by increasing the Social Security (FICA/payroll) tax, and then let the government borrow those newfound hundreds of billions of dollars off-the-books to make the deficit look better than it was.

Reagan, Greenspan, Winniski, and Laffer took the federal budget deficit from under a trillion dollars in 1980 to almost three trillion by 1988, and back then a dollar could buy far more than it buys today. They and George HW Bush ran up more debt in eight years than every president in history, from George Washington to Jimmy Carter, combined. Surely this would both starve the beast and force the Democrats to make the politically suicidal move of becoming deficit hawks.

And that's just how it turned out. Bill Clinton, who had run on an FDR-like platform of a "new covenant" with the American people that would strengthen the institutions of the New Deal, strengthen labor, and institute a national health care system, found himself in a box. A few weeks before his inauguration, Alan Greenspan and Robert Rubin sat him down and told him the facts of life: he was going to have to raise taxes and cut the size of government. Clinton took their advice to heart, raised taxes, balanced the budget, and cut numerous programs, declaring an "end to welfare as we know it" and, in his second inaugural address, an "end to the era of big government." He was the anti-Santa Claus, and the result was an explosion of Republican wins across the country as Republican politicians campaigned on a platform of supply-side tax cuts and pork-rich spending increases.

Looking at the wreckage of the Democratic Party all around Clinton by 1999, Winniski wrote a gloating memo that said, in part: "We of course should be indebted to Art Laffer for all time for his Curve... But as the primary political theoretician of the supply-side camp, I began arguing for the 'Two Santa Claus Theory' in 1974. If the Democrats are going to play Santa Claus by promoting more spending, the Republicans can never beat them by promoting less spending. They have to promise tax cuts..."

Ed Crane, president of the Libertarian CATO Institute, noted in a memo that year: "When Jack Kemp, Newt Gingich, Vin Weber, Connie Mack and the rest discovered Jude Wanniski and Art Laffer, they thought they'd died and gone to heaven. In supply-side economics they found a philosophy that gave them a free pass out of the debate over the proper role of government. Just cut taxes and grow the economy: government will shrink as a percentage of GDP, even if you don't cut spending. That's why you rarely, if ever, heard Kemp or Gingrich call for spending cuts, much less the elimination of programs and departments."

George W. Bush embraced the Two Santa Claus Theory with gusto, ramming through huge tax cuts – particularly a cut to a maximum 15 percent income tax rate on people like himself who made their principle income from sitting around the pool waiting for their dividend or capital gains checks to arrive in the mail – and blowing out federal spending. Bush even out-spent Reagan, which nobody had ever thought would again be possible.

And it all seemed to be going so well, just as it did in the early 1920s when a series of three consecutive Republican presidents cut income taxes on the uber-rich from over 70 percent to under 30 percent. In 1929, pretty much everybody realized that instead of building factories with all that extra money, the rich had been pouring it into the stock market, inflating a bubble that – like an inexorable law of nature – would have to burst. But the people who remembered that lesson were mostly all dead by 2005, when Jude Wanniski died and George Gilder celebrated the Reagan/Bush supply-side-created bubble economies in a Wall Street Journal eulogy:

"...Jude's charismatic focus on the tax on capital gains redeemed the fiscal policies of four administrations. ... [T]he capital-gains tax has come erratically but inexorably down -- while the market capitalization of U.S. equities has risen from roughly a third of global market cap to close to half. These many trillions in new entrepreneurial wealth are a true warrant of the worth of his impact. Unbound by zero-sum economics, Jude forged the golden gift of a profound and passionate argument that the establishments of the mold must finally give way to the powers of the mind. He audaciously defied all the Buffetteers of the trade gap, the moldy figs of the Phillips Curve, the chic traders in money and principle, even the stultifying pillows of the Nobel Prize."

In reality, his tax cuts did what they have always done over the past 100 years – they initiated a bubble economy that would let the very rich skim the cream off the top just before the ceiling crashed in on working people.

The Republicans got what they wanted from Wanniski's work. They held power for thirty years, made themselves trillions of dollars, cut organized labor's representation in the workplace from around 25 percent when Reagan came into office to around 8 of the non-governmental workforce today, and left such a massive deficit that some misguided "conservative" Democrats are again clamoring to shoot Santa with working-class tax hikes and entitlement program cuts.

And now Boehner, McCain, Brooks, and the whole crowd are again clamoring to be recognized as the ones who will out-Santa Claus the Democrats. You'd think after all the damage they've done that David Gregory would have simply laughed Boehner off the program – much as the American people did to the Republicans in the last election – although Gregory is far too much a gentleman for that. Instead, he merely looked incredulous; it was enough.

The Two Santa Claus theory isn't dead, as we can see from today's Republican rhetoric. Hopefully, though, reality will continue to sink in with the American people and the massive fraud perpetrated by Wanniski, Reagan, Laffer, Graham, Bush(s), and all their "conservative" enablers will be seen for what it was and is. And the Obama administration can get about the business of repairing the damage and recovering the stolen assets of these cheap hustlers.

Thom Hartmann (thom at thomhartmann.com) is a Project Censored Award-winning New York Times best-selling author, and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk program on the Air America Radio Network. www.thomhartmann.com His most recent books are "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight," "Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights," "We The People: A Call To Take Back America," "What Would Jefferson Do?," "Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class and What We Can Do About It," and "Cracking The Code: The Art and Science of Political Persuasion." His newest book, due out this summer, is Threshold.
 
The Glorious-ness of Liberals/Secular Progressives

Progressive---Air America

We don't really need to hear any more than that.

Whether it's labeled 'Liberal' or 'Secular Progressive', it's really easy to figure out that someone with that point of view is talking.

If they're busy trying to tell you what's best for you, if they know just what's going to save the world, and make it clear that it's their dazzling brilliance that's making all this wonderfulness available, If it's clear that you'd have the same ideas if you were only as intelligent as the speaker, then it's a Liberal/Secular progressive. But look out! They want to accomplish all that's glorious by getting their hands in your pockets! And having taken all that's of value from you, they want to take a pair of pliers to your scrotum to remind you to pay more attention the next time!
I'm just a conservative---Leave me alone and I'll be happy. Don't try to tell me what's the best thing for me! We're strangers. You know nothing about me so how could you possibly know what might be in my best interest?
KS
 
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Progressive---Air America

We don't really need to hear any more than that.
Which is precisely the way I feel when someone posts an Ann Coulter article.

Whether it's labeled 'Liberal' or 'Secular Progressive', it's really easy to figure out that someone with that point of view is talking.

If they're busy trying to tell you what's best for you, if they know just what's going to save the world, and make it clear that it's their dazzling brilliance that's making all this wonderfulness available, If it's clear that you'd have the same ideas if you were only as intelligent as the speaker, then it's a Liberal/Secular progressive. But look out! They want to accomplish all that's glorious by getting their hands in your pockets! And having taken all that's of value from you, they want to take a pair of pliers to your scrotum to remind you to pay more attention the next time!
I'm just a conservative---Leave me alone and I'll be happy. Don't try to tell me what's the best thing for me! We're strangers. You know nothing about me so how could possibly know what might be in my best interest.
KS
I really glad you were able to get that off your chest. I never would have known you felt that way. The fact that it has nothing to do with the article is academic I guess. Why not just do like Fossten did and admit you didn't read it?
 
Which is precisely the way I feel when someone posts an Ann Coulter article.

I really glad you were able to get that off your chest. I never would have known you felt that way. The fact that it has nothing to do with the article is academic I guess. Why not just do like Fossten did and admit you didn't read it?

LOL

I found it a good read.
I am not surprised the far right has failed to debate it, if they even took the time to read it.
 
Interesting article - especially considering the huge budgets that the outgoing president had for the last 8 years. Truly putting to rest once and for all that the Republicans can spend as well as the most spend happy of the Democrats.

Marcus, I found it interesting to compare the Boos and Balls article that was posted here recently from Ms. Coulter, and this article from Thom Hartman - well, there really isn't much of a comparison is there? They of course aren't of the same ilk - or about similar subjects, but the tone is sooo different. Not once does Hartman evoke emotions by using such polarizing statements as:
Hope and unity, apparently, can only be achieved if conservatives would just go away -- and perhaps have the decency to kill themselves.

I suppose I shouldn't mention "playing victim" here ;)

Someday the right may get it - but, for the time being, they seem to intent on continuing down the same path that got them into the place they are now... 2nd...
 
Secular Progressive Drivel

Probably the main difference between Hartmann, above and Ann Coulter's comments is that her comments are based on facts and when she points a finger of derision she's refuting inaccuracies from the left---complete with notes showing when such an inaccuracy was foisted on the public.

In regard to Hartmann's comments, the plain fact that they come from an habitue of the failed Air America should tell us something. A snarky diatribe does nothing to hide the fact that Democrat control with its give-aways has never resulted in lasting economic ease.

The bedrock fact upon which any economy must be built is the simple fact that if a business is to succeed, it must make a profit. If it doesn't it will shortly evaporate. If it is successful, there will be a need for employees, and jobs are created. But having a job with our company only entitles you to payment for hours worked. If you want to enjoy the benefits of a successful company, avail yourself of the opportunity to own a piece of it, by using a part of your pay to purchase a share of ownership. You haven't earned largesse by working the hours for which you've already been paid.

All this flies in the face of the Democrat way of looking at things. They found out a long time ago that it's really easy to buy votes by taking money from those that have it, and giving it to those who don't. There are proper uses for tax money, but buying votes from the 'have-nots' isn't one of them.

And the frantic yammering of Hartmann, scion of the Air America failure---nobody had any interest in listening to the drivel---does nothing to change reality.
KS
 
I think it's great if more liberal pieces are posted here for discussion.
However, to compare this to something by Ann Coulter is a mistake. He has every bit the venom that is attributed to Coulter, though he lacks the humor, wit, or adherence to facts that she exhibits.

This is a difficult article to respond to because it's neither scholarly, supported by facts or history, and it's conclusions are entirely rubbish.

It does acknowledge, but doesn't recognize, that particularly since FDR, the Democrats have created a culture where people expect the government to provide them things. More specifically, that the Democrats have built their political success on the democracy-destroying premise that a person can vote themselves an income from the federal government. That success in office was really based on income redistribution and terribly ill-conceived ponzi schemes.

And it is true, it's difficult to run on a campaign of personal responsibility and less "free money" from the federal government. Republicans traditionally don't have a vote buying policy to run on.

The article fails to identify that the failures of the Hoover administration coincide with the federal governments INVOLVEMENT in the economy, not simply because of the reluctance to act. Hoover and Congress passed the Smoot-Hawtley act that led to a series of events that caused the Depression, and they passed high tax rates that further damaged the economy. Hoover's failure was his inability to remain true to the economic wisdom of men like Hayek.

This authors chronology of history conveniently, or ignorantly, omits the fact that JFK used tax cuts, which eventually passed in 1964, to stimulate the economy following fears of a recession after a stock market drop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdXrfIMdiU

This author says that neither Supply Side Economics or the Laffer Curve make no sense. This is because the author doesn't understand history OR economics and is instead trying to persuade the reader into believe a series of falsehoods.

Supply-Side Economics is a very simple, very understandable economic concept. It says that you get economic growth when people have incentive to produce. It's based on human nature.

If you are working a field picking apples, and you can keep all the apples you pick, you're going to pick a lot of apples. You'll work very hard picking apples, you'll make sure you pick enough for your family, and then you'll pick more to take to the market and sell or trade for other goods.

Now, to bring the government into the equation, and since a form of taxation is necessary:
Let's presume you're this same apple picker. In one scenario, the government steps in and says you can keep the first 30 pieces of fruit you produce (since that should be ENOUGH for you) but they are going to keep 90% of the fruit you pick over 30.

Supply-Side economics says:
We're only going to take 10% of the fruit you pick over 30.

So, in this hypothetical produce economy, which one will have more activity?
Which one will have more items available to sell? Which economy will have more activity,diversity, robust trade? And lastly, which one will generate the most "revenue" to the government.

If I only keep 10% of the fruit over 30, I have much less motivation and incentive to pick fruit. But if I keep 90% of it- I'll spend morning and night picking the fruit and enjoying the 'fruits of my labor.' (sorry for the pun)

It's really THAT simple.
No trickery. No slick marketing. No con.
That's supply-side economics.

The Laffer Curve is even simpler to explain.
It's a bell shaped curve that displays the point that maximum tax revenue is generated.

To continue the fruit example, obviously, if the government imposed a tax of 0% it would make no revenue. But a taxation rate of 100% would also generate zero revenue because there'd be no incentive to work.

The laffer curve attempts to find where this taxation sweet spot is.
There is a point when lower taxes decreases federal revenue, and there is a point where higher taxes decrease federal revenue as well. The Laffer Curve attempts to identify the optimal point.

There are just so many historical and analytical errors in this article that it's silly to isolate each of them. But his claim that the Reagan tax cuts led to an intense recession are IDIOTIC. Blaming Reagan for the early 80s recession demonstrates the authors complete lack of knowledge. It'd be like blaming Obama solely for the problems of today. When Reagan took office, inflation was over 10% and unemployment was nearly 8%.
The Economic Recovery Act of 1981 which, among other things, dropped the top taxation rate from 70% to 50% and the bottom rate from 14% to 11%. This DID lead to a period of long term growth. The investments of the early 80s even lead to the technology boom of the 90s.

The author/Air-America radio personality's article is just so riddled with factual and analytical innaccuracies and mistakes, it's just not efficient to try to address each and every one. That would be overwhelming.

But the last big point they seem to be making is that tax cuts only mean rich people have more money to invest into bubble economies that pop and doom the nation into recession.

This too is moronic.

There are a few consistencies between the Crash of 1929 and the Depression that followed with today, but the author fails to identify them.

The stock market crash in 1929 was not the cause of the Great Depression. This is a misconception. It was part of a correctionary economic cycle, but not a depression. The 1929 Stock Market crash was the start of a series of BAD GOVERNMENT POLICIES around the world that DID cause the Depression... and eventual caused it to be a GREAT depression.

The economy is cyclical. This is a fact that can not be changed. Corrections are not only inevitable, they are necessary. The best market and economical management can only help to temper the severity and length of the highs and lows. In a perfect world, you could prevent the giant spikes that lead to the canyonesque falls. Ideally, economists would love to find a way to just keep things on a nice steady, shallow, gradient up. Of course, no one has figured out a way to do this.

In response to the Crash and the economic slow down, government imposed reactionary policies that raised taxes and limited trade. Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act was passed and that resulted in a wave of protectionist trade policies around the world in response, which resulted in American exports falling severely, 66%, by 1933, which had a devastating impact on the nations GDP.

BAD GOVERNMENT POLICY was the cause of the Depression. And continued bad policy prolonged the depression, making it "great." Had subsequently elected president FDR lifted trade barriers, reduced tax rates and regulation, then it's likely that the depression would have been half as long as it was. Instead it wasn't until WW2 that the U.S. was able to pull out of the depression.

That's the point that is relevant today. It's not important that government "just does something." We need to critically review the mistakes of history and avoid making the same paniced mistakes we've made in the past. Right now, the federal government is in the process of making decisions that will have severe, painful repercusions, that will be felt for generations (at least.) We still haven't been able to remove the terrible yolks of FDR, or LBJ, from our collective shoulders. We are still going to have to deal with the nightmarish ponzi schemes that early generations of Democrats have DAMNED this country with.
 
Probably the main difference between Hartmann, above and Ann Coulter's comments is that her comments are based on facts and when she points a finger of derision she's refuting inaccuracies from the left---complete with notes showing when such an inaccuracy was foisted on the public.

Actually KS, if you look at the Coulter article I was talking about (boos to balls)- nary a footnote to be found - I was comparing articles, not books. Hartmann can footnote with the best of them in book form.

Both examples were articles - destined to be fairly short, informative, with an interjection of opinion and quickly read.

And, I believe that Coulter has her spate of failures as well - so why even bring up Air America? It has nothing to do with this discussion, does it?

And I think if you look closely there isn't a "wow, isn't this great" type of comment in Hartmann's article regarding social spending. It looks at the recent tactics of the Republican party regarding supply side economics, along with 'giving the people what they want' problems on both sides of the fence. Tax cuts on the side of the right, social spending on the side of the left.

Did you read the article? I noticed you said that you wouldn't deem it worthy, noting Progressive---Air America and how you didn't need to 'read further'.

And I would love to have you point out a snarky comment in the Hartmann article - at least one that compares to Ann's 'killing' comment... there are lots more in her article - go check!!! ;)
The bedrock fact upon which any economy must be built is the simple fact All this flies in the face of the Democrat way of looking at things. They found out a long time ago that it's really easy to buy votes by taking money from those that have it, and giving it to those who don't. There are proper uses for tax money, but buying votes from the 'have-nots' isn't one of them.

And how many votes have the Republican's 'bought' when they promise tax cuts? Think 'Joe the Plumber'. Both sides dangle carrots -
 
"Think how many friends I buy by not taking their money from them at gunpoint."
gunpoint? really? who comes to your house? the cia? fbi? irs? is this why so many guns are neeeded in the states? and why everyone should have them in thier house?

and when they take your money at gunpoint, do THEY use handguns? or high powered rifles? or automatics? or semi automatics? what calibre?


or did you mean you personally? and thats your mugshot for an avatar?
 
gunpoint? really? who comes to your house? the cia? fbi? irs? is this why so many guns are neeeded in the states? and why everyone should have them in thier house?
Just out of curiosity, do you even have a point? Bitter, reactionary, semantics aside, are you going somewhere with this?

In case you don't know this, on federal issues, treasury agents will come to your home and business. They will detain you, interview all of your employees, and subpoena your records.

If you do not cooperate, they will arrest you.
If you resist, they will draw their weapons.
If you further resist, you very well may be shot or battered.
And if I don't pay all my property taxes, the government will take my home. And if I don't leave voluntarily, they will force me to vacate it. If the threats don't work, they'll show up with armed officers.

Returning to the simple point I made in response to Foxpaws, taking less from someone is NOT a vote buying scheme anymore than not mugging a person is a scheme to buy friends.

You might have missed it, but I gave a rather thorough response to the opinion piece Marcus posted as well.
 
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You've said it so well that I don't need to go further.
KS

>EDIT< But I will, at least to this extent---The major difference is that in lowering taxes, the government isn't giving me anything, they are simply stealing less of what's mine. Any form of welfare is giving something that's not earned. KS
 
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Originally Posted by hrmwrm
gunpoint? really? who comes to your house? the cia? fbi? irs? is this why so many guns are neeeded in the states? and why everyone should have them in thier house?
Wow, how ignorant can you be.

Why don't you just ask David Koresh. Waco started because of a tax issue.
 
If you go by laffers curve isn't there some ideal point where the government gets what it needs by having the correct tax point? If you continue to give people what they want, and not cut spending - like GW did during his years in office, and cut taxes below that 'optimal curve point', isn't that a carrot as well? When Bush promised tax cuts, without persuing the appropriate spending cuts, Bush and the republicans had to know it was a carrot.
 
If you go by laffers curve isn't there some ideal point where the government gets what it needs by having the correct tax point?
The laffer curve doesn't define what the government needs, it is simply a tool for identifying the point that government generates the highest revenue.

I think the government NEEDS far less than it takes, and it spends far more than it's entitled to. That however is a different subject.

If you continue to give people what they want, and not cut spending - like GW did during his years in office, and cut taxes below that 'optimal curve point', isn't that a carrot as well?
You just stated that G.W.Bush cut taxes BELLOW this "optimal point. Based on what? Your claim is untrue noting that revenues increased during his administration despite the reduced tax rates.
 
ou just stated that G.W.Bush cut taxes BELLOW this "optimal point. Based on what? Your claim is untrue noting that revenues increased during his administration despite the reduced tax rates.

Didn't deficits skyrocket during Bush? If there was an 'optimal point' reached during GW's tenure wouldn't those deficits slightly decrease, or at the very least remain the same?

And are you talking about tax revenues? Do you have the numbers on that - when you take into account GDP and inflation?
 
Didn't deficits skyrocket during Bush? If there was an 'optimal point' reached during GW's tenure wouldn't those deficits slightly decrease, or at the very least remain the same?
Again, no one said that the optimal point was found at any point during the Bush administration. Nor is it reasonable to presume that the point is static and doesn't change depending on the dynamic conditions of the economy.

The deficit increased during the Bush Presidency because they spent more money than was being generated in revenue, DESPITE increased revenues. But there not been tax cuts at the start of the Bush administration, and had spending been the same, the deficit would have been greater.

And are you talking about tax revenues? Do you have the numbers on that - when you take into account GDP and inflation?

After Bush's tax cuts in '01 and '03, Capital Gains tax revenue doubled, despite the cuts. Revenue as a percentage of GDP increase from 16.4% in 2003 to 18.4% in 2006.

And from the numbers I've found and added up, adjusted GDP was $40,511,800,000,000 in 2001 and $41,878,400,000,000 in 2006.

Here's an article from the Heritage Institute concerning the Bush tax cuts. They have a much better ability to address the specifics than I do, it's hardly worth my paraphrasing some of what they're saying:

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg2001.cfm#_ftn1
 
If they're busy trying to tell you what's best for you...
You must be talking about the Conservatives who lied us into a war because they thought it was best for us to propagate Islamic Republicanism.
 
You must be talking about the Conservatives who lied us into a war because they thought it was best for us to propagate Islamic Republicanism.

Really, well do you know the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
 
Capital gains tax revenues have more to do with what’s happening in the broader economy than with tax policy. In the early and mid-1990s, when the top capital gains tax rate was 28 percent, the revenues collected by the tax shot through the roof.
You didn't answer my question about the unladen swallow, liberal -Mick Jagger-bot.

You're also not taking into account that capital gains tax revenues DOUBLED after they CUT THE TAX. Are you following this? Some people might think that by cutting the tax, the revenue generated would have become lower. But to the contrary, it doubled. In this case, cutting the rate stimulated economic activity. And while it was taxed at a lower rate, there was more of it to tax.
 
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You didn't answer my question about the unladen swallow, liberal -Mick Jagger-bot.

You're also not taking into account that capital gains tax revenues DOUBLED after they CUT THE TAX. Are you following this? Some people might think that by cutting the tax, the revenue generated would have become lower. But to the contrary, it doubled. In this case, cutting the rate stimulated economic activity. And while it was taxed at a lower rate, there was more of it to tax.
Capital gains tax revenues are not like normal income tax revenues because the investor gets to choose when to realize those gains. It is a well known rule (and common sense) that investors hold off on taking those gains until after an announced tax cut takes effect. In other words, you'll always see a short-term spike in revenues after a capital gains tax cut, followed by a slow drop off to "expected" levels. It's debatable whether the short-term spike makes up for lost revenue over the long run.

Also, your Heritage Institute article conveniently downplays the spike in tax revenues in the late 90's as being due to the tech bubble, yet when it comes to revenue increases after 2006, conveniently ignores the housing bubble that was in full swing by then. I guess they can be forgiven for this since the article was written in 2007, but it is undeniable in 2009 that those increases were due to exactly that.
 

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