chris2523
93 Mark VIII
yes. the abs sensors. same way as on the 2nd gen mark viii. reads wheel sensors, and the computer interprets a speed.
Tune up prices
- Thread starter Becky04LS
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yes. the abs sensors. same way as on the 2nd gen mark viii. reads wheel sensors, and the computer interprets a speed.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
Again what does the transmission speed sensor do then?
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
The transmission speed sensor is there to determine if the transmission is slipping.
You also need to look up how ABS works. It does not "determines if all four wheels are spinning at the same speed." ABS doesn't care about that. The way it works is that it looks at the deceleration rate of each wheel. If any wheel suddenly greatly increases its deceleration rate, then the ABS knows that wheel has locked up and releases the brake on that wheel briefly. Now, AdvanceTrac does care about the comparison of wheel speeds, but that's a different story.
But anyway, I'm done with you. Never argue with a fool because it can be hard to tell which is the fool. I do this to help people, not to pretend that I know more than I do.
You also need to look up how ABS works. It does not "determines if all four wheels are spinning at the same speed." ABS doesn't care about that. The way it works is that it looks at the deceleration rate of each wheel. If any wheel suddenly greatly increases its deceleration rate, then the ABS knows that wheel has locked up and releases the brake on that wheel briefly. Now, AdvanceTrac does care about the comparison of wheel speeds, but that's a different story.
But anyway, I'm done with you. Never argue with a fool because it can be hard to tell which is the fool. I do this to help people, not to pretend that I know more than I do.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
The information I have is that the lincoln uses a Teves ABS system and I do know how they work. I am also not trying to do anything but help people. You are incorrect about the way ABs works. It is a simple magnetic field sensor. That's it, the computer does the computation about the values it is receiveing. It cannot calculate decelleration as it would need gforce sensors for that. If you have information that shows the LS system has accelleromaters than please provide them. I have looked at the schematics for the Teves system and it does not show that. It can compare the change of rates between speeds. My information is that it looks at only the four wheel sensor signals and compares them, to determine if any wheels may be at or near lockup. Now what the computations are in the system you would have to be an employee of teves to know that. Now your attitude is poor, I certainly never insulted you but you have insulted me and insinuated I am a fool. My understanding is the transmission speed sensor is what is mainly used to determine the speedo reading. It also compares input and output speeds (using the crank sensor) to determine the gear it should be in. This is a CAN bus vehicle. This means all computers talk to each other. The ECM uses signals from the transmission to retard timing when a shift is about to occur to make a smooth shift. If you have wiring diagrams of the LS please provide them and I will have a much better understanding of the systems. I have not been able to find one for the ABS system and also to determine where the speed signal (for the speedo) comes from. The abs computer (if it is a Teves) has four inputs, and one output. That signal is fed to the ECM. So tell me when you have the traction control off and the rear wheels spin does the speedo not read high? If it does (like it does in mine but I have a 2002 so I can't speak on the 2004) that means the speed signal comes from the transmission sensor. This are obviously complicated vehicles so I always would be receptive to wiring diagrams.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
As an aside my infromation is that the mark 8 has a different teves system.
trickett90
Well-Known LVC Member
You're annoying to read.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
And why is that?
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
uh. what? the abs does not check the not deceleration of the car. its the deceleration of the wheel. accelerometer g force sensor not relevant in any way.
the abs system does not compare wheel speeds. just if one (or all) wheel slows too quickly. under your abs system, if all 4 tires locked up on ice all at once, the abs system would just assume you had stopped and be done. this is not the case.
the car doesn't get commands from the transmission, it gives them to the transmission. the computer pulls timing because it is going to tell the computer to shift. the trans does not make that call.
his attitude is poor? :lol: this guy has dispensed more LS knowledge than anyone i've ever seen. probably forgotten more than most of us will ever know.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
It does not measure decelerration. It measures the speed of the wheel (rotational). It was the other person who stated the ABS measures decelleration.
In fact the ABS (as it is a digital computer) can only determine if the wheel is spinning or not. It is either spinning or it isn't. It can use the values it is receiveing to try and predict when the wheel will stop but that is in the software. I think that is beyond the capabilities of this older system. I have not confirmed what version of ABS system is in the LS but it is only the most current systems that allow for that. There is a new system being developed that uses GPS to predict when a wheel will stop spinning.
Maybe he has dispensed more Ls knowledge but he does not need to insult and degrade other members that are only trying to help. That is why his attitude is poor. I have never called anyone names on this site and do not intend to. Especially to someone who is trying to help out the other member.
In fact the ABS (as it is a digital computer) can only determine if the wheel is spinning or not. It is either spinning or it isn't. It can use the values it is receiveing to try and predict when the wheel will stop but that is in the software. I think that is beyond the capabilities of this older system. I have not confirmed what version of ABS system is in the LS but it is only the most current systems that allow for that. There is a new system being developed that uses GPS to predict when a wheel will stop spinning.
Maybe he has dispensed more Ls knowledge but he does not need to insult and degrade other members that are only trying to help. That is why his attitude is poor. I have never called anyone names on this site and do not intend to. Especially to someone who is trying to help out the other member.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
And yes it is possible to have all four wheels lock up on ice, with an ABS car. The car does think you are stopped. I know this has happenned to me. If the car is travelling slow and you hit the brakes on ice all four wheels will lock as the ABS does think you have stopped. This is very rare as the speed of the newer systems is quite high and it does look at all four wheels. Most of the systems now are four wheel systems but this was not always the case.
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
a hall effect sensor can read real time wheel speed. abs and trac control do know how fast the wheels are spinning. they aren't simply "on or off."
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
I never stated the transmision tells the computer to shift. I stated it uses signals from the transmission to retard the timing when it is going to shift. As I understand the transmision signal lets the computer know when a shift is approaching so the computer reacts by adjusting the timing (and other factors). Now it could be the other way around but if it is how does the computer know what speed the transmssion is going?
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
its happened to me as well, also at low speed. the abs simply did not see enough change to justify abs intervention. it is a short coming of an electronic system that can not react fast enough.
yes. most modern systems are independent 4 wheel systems. ford trucks had rear wheel abs only for a long time.
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
input speed of the trans = output speed of the engine. the trans speed sensor measures output speed of the transmission. which is engine input speed multiplied by trans gear reduction.
the shift points are based on engine rpm and throttle position tables, among other things. the speed at which the shifts take place are merely the effects of what rpm the comp decided to shift at.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
My point is that it is a digital computer so everything is on or off.
Yes hall effect do have variable outputs but the computer does not react until it senses a wheel is stopped, only then does it relieve the brake pressure. The valve can only be opened or closed as well. Again it can vary the speed at which it opens or closes but it is a digital system.
Yes hall effect do have variable outputs but the computer does not react until it senses a wheel is stopped, only then does it relieve the brake pressure. The valve can only be opened or closed as well. Again it can vary the speed at which it opens or closes but it is a digital system.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
Yes I agree with that but the computer will look at the output speed of the transmission to help determine the better shift point. It also needs the value to determine what gear it is currently in.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
There were three channel ABS systems as well. In fact there were two channel mechanical systems (in cars) before all these wonderful electronics became reliable and affordable.
SteveSC
Well-Known LVC Member
I have also been to many lectures about ABS and CAN BUS. So if you have those manuals go ahead and send them to me. Yes it is impossible to know haw fast the wheel will be spinning. That is called seeing into the future. Despite what the fortune tellers say it is not possible. The computer can guess, or predict but it can't know. By the way my shop specialised in Jaguars.
Jim Henderson
Dedicated LVC Member
yeah, if it is an original battery and if it is getting weak, you will get weird error messages(ABS, Advancetrak etc) from time to time. My 2004 LSV8 did this since maybe fall last year til I replaced the battery this summer. Got an occasional error message at first, usually advance trak, but towards the end, it happened more often and eventually the car wouldn't start if left sitting over the weekend or eventually sitting in a parking lot with the radio on for a half hour. I got to where I was charging the battery over the weekend, I'm Cheap, but eventually the problem got too bad to put up with. I measured the battery voltage and it looked OK most of the time but evidently it wasn't holding the charge long enough. A battery really needs to be checked under load.
Most parts stores will check your battery under load for free. Most shops will even check the charging system and battery for free, but be warned they do like to sell women parts you might not really need.
Other stuff is also probably going wrong too like the guys said.
Good Luck,
Jim Henderson
I'm getting the first etc failsafe mode message. When that happens the speedometer drops to 0 even though I'm going way over that, like it's broken or something. It does go into limp mode too so it doesn't accelerate very well and I can only go a certain speed.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
You would seem to be having multiple failures. I think that either stress testing all the coils, or just replacing those (along with associated spark plugs) that haven't been replaced recently would be a good first step. As was suggested, having the battery tested wouldn't be bad either.
I hate to say it, but you may be at the point that you need a good diagnostic from a good Ford/Lincoln dealer.
When my mechanic did the tune up, he replaced the coils and the spark plugs cause it was definitely misfiring. So I'm not sure why it's still saying the failsafe mode. I'm just wondering if a dying battery would cause it to say Etc failsafe mode or is it something else? Do they test batteries at Autozone or someplace like that? My mechanic said it is probably something with the oxygen sensor cause that was one code he found when he ran a read on it. Also, what kind of battery does this car have? I haven't checked yet but I want to make sure it's the original one before I get a new one. Taking it to the dealer is last resort cause I don't want to pay a crapload of more money on this...again lol
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joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
You might need a new mechanic. There's no way that an O2 sensor issue can cause ETC failsafe. Either one or more of the new coils was defective, one or more of the new sparkplugs was defective or not gap'd correctly, or you have an actual problem with the throttle body or the gas pedal assembly.
The correct battery will have a vent connection connected to a vent tube that runs to the outside and under the trunk. It will be 650 or 750 CCA.
oddball
Dedicated LVC Member
FWIW, the dealer prices on batteries actually aren't that bad. Maybe $20 more than a typical parts store (assuming your dealer isn't a jerk). There's lots of threads on batteries here, feel free to read the flame wars.
The parts stores do test batteries, but the LS is more picky than most cars. A marginal battery can easily cause problems.
Hopefully the mechanic gave you the actual code on the O2 problem. Could be something simple like the fuse is blown on the heater circuit.