Timing Chain? Yep it's the timing chain

[fbird18]

Well I think I narrowed my issues down to a particular spot. Unfortunately I think it has to do with the passenger side timing chain and or cam chain. I read de-marko's thread about his timing chain teardown and a lot of it sounds the same .

If anyone read my thread about the P0174 code, this new problem is the next step after trying to fix those problems and nothing working.

P0174, P0301, P0304, P0113 codes came up. Idles really rough. Loud knocking coming from the passenger side valve cover area. Replaced 2 COPs, MAF sensor, IAT sensor, IAC sensor. Fixed nothing. I think I know what I need to do now, but if anyone had anymore suggestions for me, it would be appreciated. Also here are 3 videos I took with my cell phone, so I don't know how well the audio comes through.

YouTube- And another cuz its fun

YouTube- Another clunking video

YouTube- Clunking/chain sound from passenger side valve

 

[NYC LS8]

Sure as hell sounds like it - from what you described and listening to the videos.

 

[#1fordfan]

how many miles on that engine?

 

[fbird18]

149k

 

[De-marko]

Sounds just like mine did unfortunately. My car had 145K when this happened.

 

[fbird18]

Pics

So I was able to open up the passenger side valve cover yesterday. Damn it's cold outside now. Why couldn't this have happened 3 months ago? Sheesh So anyways i found at least part of the problem. The cam chain tensioner is busted and you can see the groove the chain started wearing in whats left of the tensioner. From what I've read so far, it seems when this happens most of the peoples cars end up breaking the chain. So far it looks like all I've got is the bad tensioner.

Couple questions. I know I want to replace all the chain tensioners because if one is shot, I'm sure the rest are dying soon. But it is cold outside, it's hovering in the teens and going lower everyday here, and I'm doing this in my unheated garage, not to mention that it is a huge job to tear apart and replace everything. I would love be able to just replace the broken tensioner for now and hopefully make it through the winter and in the spring when I can get the motorcycle out, spend a week or two doing the proper thing and fixing all components. Is that possible? I see the two bolts holding the tensioner down. Can I fix that without pulling the chains off? What do you guys think? I know a few people have done this already.

 

[De-marko]

If all you were doing was just trying to get it through the winter I think you could just replace the tensioner and be good for awhile. The only thing to consider is that the chain may have stretched out a bit, but the tensioner would most likely take up the slack. Also alot of plastic pieces from the old tensioner that broke were strewn about on the front engine cover on my car.

I'm not sure if you'll have the room to get it out though. If you removed the bolts you might be able to if you leaned it back towards the fire wall and pull up at the same time while someone else prys the chain up.

 

[fbird18]

Thanks De-marko, that's kinda what I was thinking. Looking at the pictures, do you think it's possible the chain skipped a tooth on the cam sprockets? Is there a way to tell? Keep in mind the car actually did run really well besides the idle, so if I had to guess I'd say it didn't. I tried swapping out the misfiring coils with new ones and the idle was much much better.

I don't know though....I'm not sure what to do. I need and want to do what De-marko did, but in this cold it isn't very tempting..... No one else has any insight I could borrow?

 

[kustomizingkid]

Buy the parts and pay me to do it in my heated shop....

 

[De-marko]

Thanks De-marko, that's kinda what I was thinking. Looking at the pictures, do you think it's possible the chain skipped a tooth on the cam sprockets? Is there a way to tell?

My car ran great on the highway too, but the idle was like I had some .600 lift cams.

It is possible to tell if the cam jumped a tooth. On all 4 of the cams there is a flat spot at the front that is used for a tool that holds all of the cams in mechanical relationship with the crank. With both valve covers off, you will need to rotate the engine around until all of the "flats" are face up. When you get them up You will be able to see if one of them is off because it will not be in line with the rest of them. I circled the flats you are looking for.

The exhaust cam on my car was almost a tooth off as you can see in the pic on the left. I'm not sure if it actually jumped or if the chain was just that stretched out. I had about 3/8 or so of slack in the secondary chain.

 

[fbird18]

Buy the parts and pay me to do it in my heated shop....

I'm more than capable of doing the entire job myself, but using your heated shop sounds nice

I'm not sure what I'm gonna do right now. I'm kinda looking at a 2001 crown vic for $1875. That would make a great winter beater and that way I can let my LS sit for the winter and tackle the timing job in the spring. Or I might buy the one tensioner and try replacing that with the chains on the car and limping my car through the winter......not sure yet....

And de-marko thanks, I'll for sure check the cams. Thanks

 

[nearlyhalfamile]

Had this happen to my LS @ 80k miles on the driver side. The top of the tensioner broke and and the exhaust cam skipped a tooth. It is VERY possible to change just the tensioner... which is what I did. You can do it the quick way and take the exhaust cam and gear out to give you room to put in the new tensioner if you can't fit it in there or to fix the jumped tooth. I did this instead of doing the whole front end disassemble and saved hours. I have 35k more miles on the engine since the repair.

 

[djknowledge]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=north branch minnesota to minneapolis&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

 

[kustomizingkid]

I'll help you out and we can do it in my shop... I'd skip the Vic unless you want to buy winter tires... I have driven my Vic through a few winters and it SUCKS...

 

[fbird18]

@ nearlyhalfamile
Thank you. That's what I was hoping for. Providing that the timing hasn't been affected, I can leave all that attached and simply remove the 2 bolts holding the tensioner on and tip it towards the cams and it should come out? It looks like it, but I wasn't sure. So you never took anything more apart and replaced anything else? What about the pieces of the broken tensioner? There are bound to be little pieces strewn about the timing area, probably down at the crankshaft, you aren't worried about those getting into the oil passageways and clogging up?

I am probably going to do just the one tensioner for now and in the spring when I can get the bike out, take a week or two and tear it apart and replace everything, for my own sake and sanity.

@ brandon
Thanks but I can tackle this little job where I'm at. It's tempting to work in a heated shop, but that means towing it up there and what not. As far as the crown vic in the snow, I've had two mustangs a firebird and the LS and got through many winters problem free. I'm driving my moms 07 buick right now and it sucks! I hate front wheel drive!

@djknowledge
Thanks for the map but I've been to North Branch a few times, very easy to get to

 

[fbird18]

FIXED!!! Well for now anyways. I took nearlyhalfamile's advice and replaced just the passenger secondary tensioner, and it runs like new again . And for anyone that has this problem, the secondary tensioner breaking, it is not a hard job to change just the tensioner providing you didn't snap a chain. I simply removed the exhaust cam, dropped the new tensioner in and put it all back together. About 2 hours of work total, not bad at all.

Oh and I went to autozone to have them clear my codes and they wouldn't do it. Said he would get fired if the car was fixed elsewhere and they cleared the codes. What? Putz. Went to the dealership and they plugged in and cleared them for me. Drove about a hundred miles since then and no more CEL lights and not a single misfire. It's weird that the broken tensioner would cause all those codes, but it did. Pretty easy fix for now.

I will be taking the front of the engine off this spring to replace all the other tensioners and anything else on the way there. But for now, it's all good.

Man, after driving a buick all week, it sure felt good to get back in the drivers seat of the LS. Love my car!

 

[De-marko]

Excellent, I'm glad to hear you got it going!

 

[rainjacks]

I've never had a problem with Autozone. They've cleared my codes plenty of times. I wonder what that is about?

 

[Eleanor88]

Similar Problem

guys after reading this thread i am dealing w/ a similar problem on a 01 v8 LS.

Runs fine at highway speeds, but idles like its got some big sticks. Valve cover gasket was shot oil in the holes, changed that, new coils and plugs. when i had the cover off though i did find a piece of plastic in the front cover that looked like a piece of tensioner. did a inspection and the secondary cam chain didn't have the play like your photo shows. put it back together and doing the same thing, codes P0171 and P0307 are coming up. No vacuum leaks and swapped o2's to make sure that was the issue. So now after reading this post i am thinking my secondary tensioner is bad. Please let me know your thoughts and if you know where i can find the instructions to make the repair. Thanks again for the info!