Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
Bad, bad, bad info. Not even true at all. Back this up with some proof, then we'll talk.
The new Subwoofers
- Thread starter Travis2000LS
- Start date
Bad, bad, bad info. Not even true at all. Back this up with some proof, then we'll talk.
Whats bad?
You dont think 10" sub can hit harder than a 15"???
Look at DC, Audioque, FI and others.
Theres a lot more to subs than just size. how much a sub can take, what type of suspension it has. Box makes
a big difference and yes bigger sub needs bigger box.
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
I think that if you have a poor quality 15 and a high quality 10, yes, but you won't make a 10'' BTL hit harder or put up higher numbers, or play lower than a 15'' BTL unless you underpower the larger speaker. It makes no sense to compare inferior products to ones that are reputable and make claims with no proof. What exactly are you aiming to prove? It's a moot point that larger drivers aren't always better. You give advice like you unlocked some sort of magic to us, but you aren't really saying anything. That = bad advice.
In essence, here's the what you said:
There are speakers available that are able to play louder than some larger speakers of lesser quality if you dump more power into them, even if they take up less space.
Um? I don't feel enlightened.
Generally speaking, for SPL cone area is very important, a 10'' version of "speaker A" will not be as loud as the 15'' version of that same driver unless you add enough power over the larger driver that it can move more air. I'd guess based on prior experience you'd need more power than it would take to melt the voice coil to make a BTL 10 play louder than a BTL 15 with a well matched amp in a recommended enclosure. To get that kind of SPL out of the 10, you'd still not have as much low frequency capability. Let's not forget, to play a 10'' speaker as loud as a 15'' speaker, with all that extra power to the 10, you will need a larger more power hungry amp. This leads to more equipment cost, more electrical upgrades, and more wiring, and you still don't get the benefits of lower extension and more impact, just to hit the same number of dBs for more money. Efficiency and quality designs can make very nice smaller subwoofers that are very capable without taking alot of space, but that still won't change that larger speakers of equal quality play louder on equal power. The extra cost of space saved may not be worth it to some people.
As many negatively positioned and judgemental comments as I've seen from you, I don't see much actual substance.
In essence, here's the what you said:
There are speakers available that are able to play louder than some larger speakers of lesser quality if you dump more power into them, even if they take up less space.
Um? I don't feel enlightened.
Generally speaking, for SPL cone area is very important, a 10'' version of "speaker A" will not be as loud as the 15'' version of that same driver unless you add enough power over the larger driver that it can move more air. I'd guess based on prior experience you'd need more power than it would take to melt the voice coil to make a BTL 10 play louder than a BTL 15 with a well matched amp in a recommended enclosure. To get that kind of SPL out of the 10, you'd still not have as much low frequency capability. Let's not forget, to play a 10'' speaker as loud as a 15'' speaker, with all that extra power to the 10, you will need a larger more power hungry amp. This leads to more equipment cost, more electrical upgrades, and more wiring, and you still don't get the benefits of lower extension and more impact, just to hit the same number of dBs for more money. Efficiency and quality designs can make very nice smaller subwoofers that are very capable without taking alot of space, but that still won't change that larger speakers of equal quality play louder on equal power. The extra cost of space saved may not be worth it to some people.
As many negatively positioned and judgemental comments as I've seen from you, I don't see much actual substance.
Oh I'm not talking about the same series of subs. I'm just making a reference that on general you can build a system that can keep up with larger diameter subs.
Yes quality means everything... I'm not being negative.
Yes quality means everything... I'm not being negative.
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
Well, I guess that is worthwhile knowledge for beginners. I have seen some people who don't know much about the subject and insist Bigger=Better, without considering enclosure size, efficiency, power handling, and what they really want to achieve. I didn't mean to jump down your throat about it, a few comments of yours that I didn't consider very friendly, without the merit to be that way, gave me a bad taste.
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
just to throw in my $.02
the reason i went with 15's is because while even though some can, its real hard to find a 12" sub that can handle the ultra deep lows (<30hz) as well, putting them in a sealed box tightens up the higher mid end quite well, however there is a draw back, the cone is just too large to move fast enough to handle any higher bass freq's. i actually have the HPF set around 60-65 (where i'd like to see closer to 80) luckly the type R's have a good heavy cone and with enough power can fill the gap nicely.
however, i have been heavily contemplating switching down to a single 12" (not for the space because i wouldn't really be getting much back) and exchanging a good bit of cone area for a fair bit more excursion. 12"s do seem to be the best of the best, while you may not be able to get quite as low, the fuller range is well worth the trade as long as there is enough excursion to yield frightening output.
i have heard some great 10" setups especially if you listen to certian types of music but if you listen to a bit of everything, some songs will show a certian small lack of depth. its just not for me.
also 12" is just a more manageable size, with 15"s, its always a crazy shaped box, and a sh!t ton of work to shoe horn them in there. and im definitely smelling what your stepping in Black, if your buying a high enough quality sub, there really shouldn't be a need for two of them. if you really want something louder than that, your driving the wrong car, you should be driving around something like a burban or navi, so you can actually build a system that has the room to be truly loud.
the reason i went with 15's is because while even though some can, its real hard to find a 12" sub that can handle the ultra deep lows (<30hz) as well, putting them in a sealed box tightens up the higher mid end quite well, however there is a draw back, the cone is just too large to move fast enough to handle any higher bass freq's. i actually have the HPF set around 60-65 (where i'd like to see closer to 80) luckly the type R's have a good heavy cone and with enough power can fill the gap nicely.
however, i have been heavily contemplating switching down to a single 12" (not for the space because i wouldn't really be getting much back) and exchanging a good bit of cone area for a fair bit more excursion. 12"s do seem to be the best of the best, while you may not be able to get quite as low, the fuller range is well worth the trade as long as there is enough excursion to yield frightening output.
i have heard some great 10" setups especially if you listen to certian types of music but if you listen to a bit of everything, some songs will show a certian small lack of depth. its just not for me.
also 12" is just a more manageable size, with 15"s, its always a crazy shaped box, and a sh!t ton of work to shoe horn them in there. and im definitely smelling what your stepping in Black, if your buying a high enough quality sub, there really shouldn't be a need for two of them. if you really want something louder than that, your driving the wrong car, you should be driving around something like a burban or navi, so you can actually build a system that has the room to be truly loud.
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
oh yea, i'm picking up what your dropping. its the same thing as certian brands of electronics. if i wanted to, i could have bought a Taurus, but i didnt want a Taurus, i wanted a lincoln. there are some pretty major differences between the two. and of course, a Daewoo has an attractive price, but at tfhe end of the day, do you really want to be spending your time inside a Daewoo?
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
There are options for saving space with a 15'' sub... Go IB and have your whole trunk... Plenty of 15s can integrate above 80 hz too, biggest issue with tuning much above 80hz is blending for upfront bass, unless you have time correction. That said, what do you listen to regularly that has much time spent under 30hz? Unless you listen to spl tracks all day, a good 12 can go below 30 just fine.
I'm not really catching onto what you're saying as far as not needing more than one sub, all depends on how much output you need. The way you said that if you want your music loud you need a big ass truck, that's like saying if you like girls with great racks you need to date a butterface. Compromise isn't always the name of the game.
I'm not really catching onto what you're saying as far as not needing more than one sub, all depends on how much output you need. The way you said that if you want your music loud you need a big ass truck, that's like saying if you like girls with great racks you need to date a butterface. Compromise isn't always the name of the game.
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
its pretty simple, if you get a good enough quality sub, there is not need for a second.
yea, there are so many people running free air out there because it sounds so good, yes it is possible for free air to sound good, but its a lot harder, and usually doesn't sound anywhere nearly as good, the enclosure make the biggest difference to how a speaker will sound, just hoping that your trunk size is just right is a crap shoot. (also of all the years that i have gone to car shows, i have never seen anyone with a IB setup ever win a SQ comp, nor have i ever seen anyone with a 15" win a SQ comp)
they can, they just suck at it, take any 15" sub out there and play some music with the bass centered around lets say 70hz, i bet the the 10" version of the sub handles it much better and sounds a lot cleaner and tighter.
a lot of southern rap has super deep notes.
again, yes a good 12" can, but the 15" version of the same sub will do it better and cleaner, if one size speaker could play every freq perfectly, there would be only one size speaker ever made, but that not the case, the reason you bought three way components, is because differences sized drivers have different effective ranges.
not at all, what im saying is that you can get pretty damn loud with one single 2kw sub, and if that is not loud enough for you, then your going to need a lot more room than the small trunk space the LS has to offer, for instance one 12" solo X can have a box that needs between 5' and 6' cubed, and with enough work, you could get that into the trunk easy, however if you want a louder system then that, your going to need much more room (and a 12' cubed box for two is not going to fit)
Compromise is always the name of the game, you can build a 10 second car for the strip, but it aint going to be too practical to use it as a daily driver. if you want all the amenities of a luxury car, then it is going to weight a lot more than a sports car. audio is no different, lets say you have a extended cab pick up truck, you can either get shallow small subs to fit under the rear seats and not lose any seating area, or you can remove the rear seats and throw in a couple of 13.3" W7's, but you cant have both. if there was one sub out there that was better than every other sub ever built (including price) then no body would ever buy anything else, just that one sub. but in fact there is no perfect choice, every device ever made has its strong points and weak points.
Which one the mojo??
No, I have a few year old modular one. The M-1 and it is not even the best that Memphis has to offer. The Mojo is a beast. I play my sub hard and have never had a problem with it. Jammed my system on a 5 hour road trip with no cut out or anything. I have used Memphis subs for many years and have always been pleased with their subs.
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
Some people don’t want to spend $1000 dollars on a single woofer that needs 2kw to do it’s job, a couple of 12’s does a better job for less money and power. This is really an opinion preference matter, so I don’t even want you to change your mind or preference, it’s kind of rediculous to try to convince this to others though. If that’s what you think and prefer, great.
Yeah, you’re right, people are running IB because it sounds better. IB done properly sounds lots better than a boxed speaker, go a step further to aperiodic membrane, transmission line, or combination enclosures and you have the best. IB isn’t worse quality at all, it’s better, and in most cases eliminates certain problems caused by traditional enclosures. It’s a small amount more difficult to build an IB baffle and seal your trunk, but not by much. You want to play lower than 30hz and can’t get a 15 to blend near 80 too well. Here's where your ideology needs to do homework. IB is far easier to blend at higher frequencies (smoother FR), and one of the best ways to get lots of low bass under 30hz without huge boxes. IB systems are usually capable of playing 6-10dbs louder at 20hz than other types of systems (that would be much louder to twice as loud). Many people LOVE an IB 15’’ setup and rave about it over on DIYMA, the most common AE15 in IB is pretty damn good. If there’s no one winning competitions with 15's, or even both 15 AND free-air…. What about Scott Buwalda (3 15s), Dave brooks (one 8, but worth mention), or Larry Woolacott (2 15’s)? I can name more, but all three of them won in at least national levels, Scott won the world championship, all were IB, 2 had 15s… Scott, you can talk to him on DIYMA if you’d like to know more.
What’s better? Mediocre midbass blending above frequencies proper midbasses should easily handle, or poor response 40hz and down? I’ll say I’d rather have a sub that does its job (subbass) and still can play 80hz if properly tuned. A reasonable 12 will play into the mid-20s and can be blended up to 125hz if need be…
Why do I even bother…
We’re making the same point here. I bought 3-ways because they are a great speaker set for a super low price, I’d be fine with 2 way or even some of those kickass pointsource full-range sets. You said you shouldn’t need more than one sub. Right? You said if it were good enough you should only need one. You also said a good 12 can play well below 30hz. Did we make a connection?
I don’t think the argument here is that you can’t get enough out of a single sub, besides that solo x subs are crap for SQ….. The point is, people want a certain amount of output for a certain price, if I can buy one sub that needs 2kw and can play 140dB, or two that cost about the same price as the one, but can play at least 3-5 dB louder on that same 2kw because they move more air, which am I normally going to do? You might come back at me and say that it’s not as common to run a single sub, but can be just as good. Maybe you shouldn’t tell me that IB is bad because it isn’t common?
Just because in every scenario you can compromise, and achieve MOST of what you want to do, that doesn’t mean you have to. There are also plenty of scenarios where no compromises were made and you still don’t give up much of anything. There are 10 second diesel trucks that get great gas mileage, weigh 3 tons, have 4x4, haul families and trailers, and have huge systems. What were you saying?
We both have good knowledge of car audio and seperate opinions, I don't want to seem like an as*hole on here by going back and forth. I'm happy to talk audio though. Please realize I'm not mad, sarcastic, or malicious in my replies when talking about all this and commenting. It's fine for you to like what you prefer, same here. There are points in this very back-and-forth were we nearly come to the same conclusion. Let's not make enemies over something that is a common interest.
Actually you can get a 2kw sub for much less.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_18016_Orion-2010-HCCA122-HCCA12.2-HCCA-12.2.html
Not too long ago they had the same sub for $300.
+1
You can run 2-3.5k on a DC sub for under $400, shipped. I've heard them on as low as 1k and they are monsters so they can deff do their job for less than 2k.
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
I was speaking hypothetically. I know what's out there, I just don't like it when people try to say, "this is how I do things, I'm right, so everyone else is wrong". There are many ways to accomplish many tasks in car audio and I enjoy that freedom. Like I said in the last post, do things how you like it but don't try to talk down to others who don't. Not that you were this particular instance.
LOL @ arguments.
More on topic, nice subs as far a budget system goes. I do agree with what others have said, just be careful when running cheap stuff like Legacy and Boss. It's really more worth your time to look for good condition used stuff off the bay rather than go with cheap new stuff. In my case, I snagged a JBL BPX500.1 in very good condition off ebay for $117 about a year and a half ago. Came with box, manuals, warranty card, boost knob, everything. Also got a PPI Ax400 along with an A200 in a package deal for $300 before that. Might have overpaid for those together, but they're old school PPI and sound great. I don't want to talk about the cost of my current sub setup though, so I'll skip that one (I run two 10s FWIW). Anyways, you've got a decent start, so good luck hunting when the upgrade bug bites you (which it will do!).
More on topic, nice subs as far a budget system goes. I do agree with what others have said, just be careful when running cheap stuff like Legacy and Boss. It's really more worth your time to look for good condition used stuff off the bay rather than go with cheap new stuff. In my case, I snagged a JBL BPX500.1 in very good condition off ebay for $117 about a year and a half ago. Came with box, manuals, warranty card, boost knob, everything. Also got a PPI Ax400 along with an A200 in a package deal for $300 before that. Might have overpaid for those together, but they're old school PPI and sound great. I don't want to talk about the cost of my current sub setup though, so I'll skip that one (I run two 10s FWIW). Anyways, you've got a decent start, so good luck hunting when the upgrade bug bites you (which it will do!).
jsteadman2985
New LVC Member
I just got some of my system started. Here's what i have so far:
15" dc audio level 5 @ 2ohm 4000watts
12000watt soundigital digital refrence amp
2 c&d technologies 490 series batteries
Still shopping for a double din head unit and good door/rear deck speakers and amp for those.
15" dc audio level 5 @ 2ohm 4000watts
12000watt soundigital digital refrence amp
2 c&d technologies 490 series batteries
Still shopping for a double din head unit and good door/rear deck speakers and amp for those.
Big Mike
Dedicated LVC Member
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
ur an idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!
fastmark1993
Dedicated LVC Member
Well I +1 with Memphis audio, I had a 15" Memphis mojo m3. Loved it to death. It tore my Jimmy apart. And also some lower quality stuff isn't that bad. I did finally fry that pc 1800 so I bought a cheapo bass inferno dx1500 a long time ago and threw it in. Been running 1 ohm for weeks now with my p3's and not one cut out or problem :lol: I would deffinatly buy their product again.
I agree. His statement was completely biased and totally incorrect. Funny he said you wouldn't have enough space for two 15s in a LS, but I had two in my trunk for the longest time without any problems and held a state record for 4 years in my class.